Quote:

---

Firstly, there is nothing in scripture states everything we believe must be explicitly found or stated in scripture. The "show me from scripture" challenge is an example of a Protestant tradition that is foreign to Apostolic Christianity.

---

Sure, but there should be some basis. Backwards in time causality is a totally different animal without any real support.

Quote:

---

Only God knows how it all works, but Scripture does give us examples of prayers for the faithful departed (2Mac & 1Tim for example). The practice is well documented in the earliest times of the church going back to the Apostolic age. This concept is not new and should not be controversial.

---

Praying for god to care for the departed under the assumption they are alive and well in the afterlife is very different than reverse causality.

You quoted this but didn't address it:
Aggrad08 said:
Second I think you touch on the subject but didn't fully explore the ramifications. If god is omniscient, truly omniscient, then he cannot gain information. His mind cannot be changed. His will cannot be changed. To pray is not to impact the will of god unless god isn't omniscient. It can have other purposes but logically, that can't be one of them. Mary cannot change god's mind.

Quote:

---

We have scripture verses that clearly show God changing his mind (examples…Exodus 32:14, Genesis 18:2233, 2 Kings 20:16, Jonah 3:10).

---

Then god is not omniscient. Most people interpret those verses in ways that make god only appear to change his mind or working with humans toward that goal. You logically cannot change your mind if you know everything. No way out of that.

Quote:

---

We have scripture verses that clearly show God is not bound by time (examples…. John 1:1, John 8:58, 2Peter 3:8, Isaiah 46:10, Ecclesiastes 3:11, James 5:16b).

---

This is not really what those verses say and I think it an abuse of the verses that claim that god is eternal, to say that he works backwards in time, or all time at once or any other interpretation you are pushing. That's not what it says, that's your interpretation of a plausible scenario (being outside time whatever the hell that means) to backwards in time effect.

Quote:

---

We know prayer does have power, and seeking the intercession of the Saints (especially our Blessed Mother) has been done by Christians from the very beginning and continues to this day.

---

Prayer having power and prayer changing gods will are two different statements. Mary changing god's will is a different assumption. In fact, if we take your premise, the only logical thing to do with ANY prayer is not to pray to mary, it's to pray to every saint in heaven all at once.

Nothing earth shattering but a recent video by Wes Huff has his take on this topic at 21:33 and only lasts for a few minutes.

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Prayer to Mary is asking for her intercession. Intercessory prayer is recommenced by Paul. Mary, and all of the saints in heaven, are one spirit with Christ, per the bible. All of the saints in heaven are very much alive, and are partakers in the divine nature. Why is this so hard?

---

It always makes me chuckle at the word games Rome plays.

Paul asks a specific group to pray for him. Specifically, those who will hear his letter read.

Paul never suggest praying to Mary or the Saints in hopes they will pray for him.

-------

And yes, we can agree the Saints are alive in heaven. Just as there are billions alive on earth right now.

In both cases, we have zero Scriptural and more than enough evidence that, in fact, simply being alive does not mean they can hear requests for prayer. A greater connection is needed.

Which is why I pointed out that what you end up doing is saying not only are they alive, but they've been gifted powers, only associated with God, to achieve something.

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Intercessory prayer is merely asking someone holier than you to pray for you, and who is holier than someone who is ALIVE in heaven enjoying the beatific vision?

---

No person is "holier" than another. Jesus's blood makes us holy, not anything else (1 John 1:7).

Quote:

---

No person is "holier" than another

---

Me and the Bible disagree with you...

James 5: The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.[b] 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

Holy people like Peter and Paul raised people from the dead. No other NT saint did this in the bible. Peter and Paul were very holy, or else they couldn't have done this...

Aggrad08 said:

---

Sure, but there should be some basis. Backwards in time causality is a totally different animal without any real support.

---

There is a solid basis and significant support…if you know what you are looking for, where to look for it, and how to understand it. For Catholics and Orthodox Christians this belief comes to us naturally and without difficulty. Our beliefs about the Communion of Saints in no way contradict Scripture and are integral to our faith and align seamlessly with the mystery of the Eucharist and other essential beliefs.

Regrettably for Protestants, a great barrier has been placed in front of you by the Reformers and their successors making it extremely difficult for Protestants to see and understand fundamental truths that have always been held by Christians. It isn't necessarily your fault because for most of you it's just how you received the faith… but you are rejecting the Apostolic faith informed by and understood through Sacred Tradition and the Apostolic Church (including Holy Scripture).
Instead you protest against the Church and her Traditions in favor of Sola Scriptura and your own interpretive traditions. Any attempt to come to the fullness of truth and the faith through the Bible alone is an impossible task and leads to compromises and partial truths where the only option is to reduce the faith to "well at least we can agree on the essentials, right?". Essential issues like Baptism become secondary and negotiable.

To address the timelessness of God I would like to turn to the mystery of the Eucharist. Every time we receive the Eucharist we are receiving the true body and blood of Jesus (true flesh/food and true blood/drink). Not symbolic, not only spiritual, not metaphorical, but rather the very same physical body of Jesus sacrificed on the cross. How is this possible you may ask being that Jesus was crucified once for all and almost 2,000 years ago….and the answer is found in the timelessness and "backwards in time causality" of God.

In John 6 we see Jesus multiply the loaves miraculously feeding thousands. That same night He walks on water doubling down that He is God. The very next day he declares to all that he is the true bread come down from Heaven and that those who believe in Him must eat his flesh and drink his blood for his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink. They ask how this can be but Jesus doesn't back off and intensified his teaching to the point that many followers departed from following him and he let them go. He turns to the twelve and challenges them to leave as well. Jesus literally meant what he said and did not back down or soften his teaching to be merely symbolic, despite how it offended those who heard it. He helps the Apostles understand his teaching the following year at the Last Supper.

At the Jewish Passover meals celebrated annually, the youngest person at the table asks the oldest "what makes this night different than any other night" and the oldest responds "because of what the Lord did for ME when I came out of Egypt. In the current Passover they each regard themselves as being at the original Passover delivered by God and/or the original Passover is made present in the current Passover. The Passover is past, present, and future.

In a similar way but in a real way, the Eucharist places us at the last supper, and at the foot of the cross while the sacrifice of Jesus is made present for us to receive at the Altar today. God transcends time and takes us back to Calvary or brings himself forth from Calvary to meet us here today. In doing so we are united with Jesus and with all the saints throughout all time.

How did Jesus give his flesh and blood to the Apostles in the Upper Room the night before he was crucified? Because God is capable of a backward in time causality. God transcends time and space. We receive the very same Body and Blood of Jesus today that the Apostles received at the Last supper the night before Jesus was crucified.

Hope this explanation helps shed a little more light on our beliefs and how they flow together.

The verse you quoted literally made a point contrary to yours, that Elijah was just like us, yet a tremendous miracle was performed through him. The point of the passage you brought up is that miracles are not tied to the "holiness" or "special-ness" of the prayer. The preceding verse tells us to "pray for one another," right before the well-known phrase of the prayers of a righteous person being powerful and effective. That's directed to regular-schmegular church-goers.

Jesus Himself told the disciples:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
John 14:12-13 ESV

So the ability for believers to witness or perform miracles is not limited to certain special people, but for the purpose of God being glorified.

Remember, sorcerers in the Old Testament also performed what we would call "miraculous" acts. Certainly they were not "holier."

Again, you seem to not accept the logical conclusion of your own premises. If it makes sense to pray to Mary then it makes more sense to pray to all the saints at once.

If it makes sense that god answers prayers in order of reverse causality, then it makes sense to ask god to change your own past in your own prayers. How often have you prayed this prayer?

Aggrad08 said:

---

Again, you seem to not accept the logical conclusion of your own premises. If it makes sense to pray to Mary then it makes more sense to pray to all the saints at once.

---

I think because you are approaching this wearing your Protestant shaded lenses you do not seem to grasp the concept. When we "pray to Mary and/or the Saints" they are never the final object of our prayer and in no way do we worship them. We only worship God. We seek the help and aid of Mary and the Saints because they have been perfected in Christ and in them we are able to relate.

Additionally, prayer is not a means to get what we want or what we think we need. We do not approach God with a disposition of demanding what we want, nor are we using the Saints to garner extra support to change God's mind. By reflecting on the lives of certain saints we gain perspective and wisdom where we may be aided, and seeking their intercession helps us in a very real way. Ignoring the Saints is to dismiss their powerful witness and ability to help us.

We are not invoking the saints in an attempt to circumvent God, and we are not collecting the Saints like chits to play when we want something.

Quote:

---

If it makes sense that god answers prayers in order of reverse causality, then it makes sense to ask god to change your own past in your own prayers. How often have you prayed this prayer?

---

I have never said anything remotely close to this, nor implied in any way whatsoever that what you are proposing here is possible. Furthermore, God is outside of space and time. I am not.

(I cannot tell if you are genuinely trying to understand the concept or if you are trolling here.)

Not to mention God ordains 100% of all things that happen. That's why there would be no point to go back in time for anything. It's not like God messed up the first time around!

ETA: Come to think of it, God going back in time to answer any prayer would open a whole can of worms, such as suffering for no reason (in the case some kind of struggle would be reversed, anyway). Part of the assurance of things happening the way they do is that absolutely everything that happens has some sort of purpose for the benefit of all believers. That wouldn't be possible if something could happen, only to be reversed later, to the knowledge of no one but God.

DANManman said:

---

Not to mention God ordains 100% of all things that happen. That's why there would be no point to go back in time for anything. It's not like God messed up the first time around!

---

What are you guys even saying?? Seriously. Nobody is talking about God making mistakes or any of us going back in time like we are Michael J. Fox or Doc Brown.

What I am trying to help illuminate is how GOD is not constrained by time and space. Understanding this reality would help your understanding of how Jesus offers us his sacred flesh and blood in the Eucharist. It's why first century Christians universally held belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and why ALL Apostolic Churches today still hold this fundamental belief.

Enough of the straw manning.



ETA: undersranding this also applies to the Communion of Saints

With all due respect, even though God doesn't perceive time sequentially, we definitely do, and we have no reason to believe the same isn't true for all creation, even the principalities and powers, and God understands that, as He created it so.

So can you please clarify what point you're making here? If you're not claiming God is acting on prayers that have yet to be delivered to Him, what exactly are you claiming here?

This isn't a straw man. You directly implied, perhaps by accident, that you could pray for the departed and that prayer could affect them while they lived here on earth. If you meant something different then it's a misunderstanding.

I grew up Catholic and am now non-denominational. I don't find any evidence in scripture that Mary is who we need interceding on our behalf. As Romans 8 states, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and is interceding on our behalf. He tells us to ask of him and in his name, and we will have all we need.

Romans 8:34

Quote:

---

"Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who diedmore than that, who was raised to lifeis at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

---

John 14:1314
Jesus tells His disciples:

Quote:

---

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it."

---

I view Mary with reverence, but scripture clearly tells us to ask Christ and he will intercede for us. He is not too busy or too apathetic that we need to go to his mother first or ask in his mother's name. Hebrews 4 reiterates this and tells us to boldly come to the throne of grace (where Jesus is seated with the Father) and we will receive help.

Hebrews 4:1416

Quote:

---

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

---

Jesus intercedes for us with God the Father.
Mary intercedes for us with Jesus...

Don't get them mixed up...

When we pray to the saints (including Mary), we are not asking them to intercede instead of Jesus. Rather, they pray with us and for us to the Father through Jesus, just as you and I do when we pray for one another. The same principle applies to the Church in heaven and the Church on earth.

Scripture shows us that the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful. James 5:16 tells us: "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." Who is more righteous than those who have been perfected in glory and now stand in the beatific vision before God? This is why asking the saints to join their prayers to ours makes sense. It doesn't bypass Jesus, every prayer from the saints goes through Him, our one mediator.

We see this clearly in the Old Testament as well. In Job 42, after Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God, the Lord tells them: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends... Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly." (Job 42:7-8). God Himself directed them to seek Job's intercession rather than approaching Him only on their own. This shows that God is pleased to work through the prayers of His righteous servants.

It's good and biblical to pray directly to Jesus. But just as we ask our living brothers and sisters to pray for us, we can also ask our brothers and sisters in heaven (who are fully united with Christ) to pray for us as well. Their prayers don't compete with Jesus; they participate in His intercession.

Srby said:

---

When we pray to the saints (including Mary), we are not asking them to intercede instead of Jesus. Rather, they pray with us and for us to the Father through Jesus, just as you and I do when we pray for one another. The same principle applies to the Church in heaven and the Church on earth.

Scripture shows us that the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful. James 5:16 tells us: "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." Who is more righteous than those who have been perfected in glory and now stand in the beatific vision before God? This is why asking the saints to join their prayers to ours makes sense. It doesn't bypass Jesus, every prayer from the saints goes through Him, our one mediator.

We see this clearly in the Old Testament as well. In Job 42, after Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God, the Lord tells them: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends... Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly." (Job 42:7-8). God Himself directed them to seek Job's intercession rather than approaching Him only on their own. This shows that God is pleased to work through the prayers of His righteous servants.

It's good and biblical to pray directly to Jesus. But just as we ask our living brothers and sisters to pray for us, we can also ask our brothers and sisters in heaven (who are fully united with Christ) to pray for us as well. Their prayers don't compete with Jesus; they participate in His intercession.

---

Yall are all saying the same thing, which I understand. I think the issue is being able to speak to a dead person (Mary) and ask them to pray with/for us.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Srby said:

---

When we pray to the saints (including Mary), we are not asking them to intercede instead of Jesus. Rather, they pray with us and for us to the Father through Jesus, just as you and I do when we pray for one another. The same principle applies to the Church in heaven and the Church on earth.

Scripture shows us that the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful. James 5:16 tells us: "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." Who is more righteous than those who have been perfected in glory and now stand in the beatific vision before God? This is why asking the saints to join their prayers to ours makes sense. It doesn't bypass Jesus, every prayer from the saints goes through Him, our one mediator.

We see this clearly in the Old Testament as well. In Job 42, after Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God, the Lord tells them: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends... Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly." (Job 42:7-8). God Himself directed them to seek Job's intercession rather than approaching Him only on their own. This shows that God is pleased to work through the prayers of His righteous servants.

It's good and biblical to pray directly to Jesus. But just as we ask our living brothers and sisters to pray for us, we can also ask our brothers and sisters in heaven (who are fully united with Christ) to pray for us as well. Their prayers don't compete with Jesus; they participate in His intercession.

---

Yall are all saying the same thing, which I understand. I think the issue is being able to speak to a dead person (Mary) and ask them to pray with/for us.

---

Have you reflected on the transfiguration? Saying, "the saints (who are alive) can't ___" seems to follow a materialist earthly formula. It'd be better to say you don't know, given that resurrected bodies in the NT don't follow the same laws as our own (Christ has one too).

First, I'd point out that our God is the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38). Those who have passed on in Christ are not dead in the way we often think, they are more alive than we are, perfected in His presence.

On the question of whether they can hear us, I would like to summarize a question I had back on page 2: Scripture shows us that non-corporeal beings (without physical bodies) can and do interact with humans in ways God permits. Demons, for example, are able to tempt and influence people even though they lack bodies. We also see many clear examples of angels speaking to, guiding, and delivering messages to humans throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

If God allows fallen angels and holy angels to communicate and interact with us, it's reasonable to believe He also allows His perfected saints in heaven, who are fully united with Christ and free from sin, to hear our requests for prayer and to intercede for us. This doesn't require them to be omniscient or omnipresent. They are simply part of the same Body of Christ we belong to (the Church triumphant in heaven and the Church militant on earth).
As Christians, we're all called to intercede for one another. Why would that calling suddenly end at death? It seems far more likely that our ability to love, pray, and intercede for one another is perfected in heaven rather than ended by it.

AGC said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Srby said:

---

When we pray to the saints (including Mary), we are not asking them to intercede instead of Jesus. Rather, they pray with us and for us to the Father through Jesus, just as you and I do when we pray for one another. The same principle applies to the Church in heaven and the Church on earth.

Scripture shows us that the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful. James 5:16 tells us: "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." Who is more righteous than those who have been perfected in glory and now stand in the beatific vision before God? This is why asking the saints to join their prayers to ours makes sense. It doesn't bypass Jesus, every prayer from the saints goes through Him, our one mediator.

We see this clearly in the Old Testament as well. In Job 42, after Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God, the Lord tells them: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends... Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly." (Job 42:7-8). God Himself directed them to seek Job's intercession rather than approaching Him only on their own. This shows that God is pleased to work through the prayers of His righteous servants.

It's good and biblical to pray directly to Jesus. But just as we ask our living brothers and sisters to pray for us, we can also ask our brothers and sisters in heaven (who are fully united with Christ) to pray for us as well. Their prayers don't compete with Jesus; they participate in His intercession.

---

Yall are all saying the same thing, which I understand. I think the issue is being able to speak to a dead person (Mary) and ask them to pray with/for us.

---

Have you reflected on the transfiguration? Saying, "the saints (who are alive) can't ___" seems to follow a materialist earthly formula. It'd be better to say you don't know, given that resurrected bodies in the NT don't follow the same laws as our own (Christ has one too).

---

Well, that just brings up another topic - when we receive our resurrected bodies.

Srby said:

---

First, I'd point out that our God is the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38). Those who have passed on in Christ are not dead in the way we often think, they are more alive than we are, perfected in His presence.

On the question of whether they can hear us, I would like to summarize a question I had back on page 2: Scripture shows us that non-corporeal beings (without physical bodies) can and do interact with humans in ways God permits. Demons, for example, are able to tempt and influence people even though they lack bodies. We also see many clear examples of angels speaking to, guiding, and delivering messages to humans throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

If God allows fallen angels and holy angels to communicate and interact with us, it's reasonable to believe He also allows His perfected saints in heaven, who are fully united with Christ and free from sin, to hear our requests for prayer and to intercede for us. This doesn't require them to be omniscient or omnipresent. They are simply part of the same Body of Christ we belong to (the Church triumphant in heaven and the Church militant on earth).
As Christians, we're all called to intercede for one another. Why would that calling suddenly end at death? It seems far more likely that our ability to love, pray, and intercede for one another is perfected in heaven rather than ended by it.

---

This sounds good and I won't say it doesn't make sense, but it's conjecture.

(And I wish I had chosen other words than "dead person" because I agree about being alive)

Thaddeus73 said:

---

Jesus intercedes for us with God the Father.
Mary intercedes for us with Jesus...

Don't get them mixed up...

---

If Jesus hears our prayers, and he is able to answer them, good, and righteous, why would we need additional intercession from Mary?

The analogy I have been pondering on, and I have been pondering this subject, not just debating here… a CEO has a customer with an issue that desperately needs to be resolved. The customer has been trying to reach the CEO, and not getting resolution. The customer realizes that they're friends with the CEO's mother and petitions her, who then brings the issue to the attention of the CEO who then solves the issue.

Why did the mother need to intervene? Because the customer was unimportant to the CEO (not loved), the need was not able resolved by the CEO(he was not omnipotent), was too busy to hear the request (not omnipresent), or not good (and his mother appealed to a better nature based on her relationship with the son).

I don't see Jesus as falling into any of these categories, so why would someone else need to intercede on our behalf? He hears our prayers and is able to answer them if it is his will. Why would the petition of another change anything?

Quote:

---

If Jesus hears our prayers, and he is able to answer them, good, and righteous, why would we need additional intercession from Mary?

---

Don't you want a holy person praying for you 24/7, while you are asleep, while you are sinning, while you are watching football?

She isn't dead (John 8:51), and the saints and angels present our prayers to God, per Revelation 5:8 and 8:3, so she, as a partaker in the divine nature (1 Peter 2:4), does really know what's going on down here. The Great Cloud of Witnesses in Hebrews 12 is NOT a huge pile of corpses...

ReelAg6 said:

---

I don't see Jesus as falling into any of these categories, so why would someone else need to intercede on our behalf? He hears our prayers and is able to answer them if it is his will. Why would the petition of another change anything?

---

We were were not only created to love God, but we were created for relationship with each other as well. The Communion of the Saints is a participation in the Body of Christ. It's not that we NEED someone to intercede on our behalf so much as it is about being incorporated into membership in the family of God. God is pleased by our love and concern for others and God is pleased by the Saints' love and concern for us. God delights in our recognition, acknowledgment, appreciation, veneration, and petitions for help from the martyrs and saints who have gone before us.

We should pray to God and all worship is for God who has the power to do anything He wills….and at the same time God is not offended by our seeking help and comfort from the saints.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Srby said:

---

First, I'd point out that our God is the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38). Those who have passed on in Christ are not dead in the way we often think, they are more alive than we are, perfected in His presence.

On the question of whether they can hear us, I would like to summarize a question I had back on page 2: Scripture shows us that non-corporeal beings (without physical bodies) can and do interact with humans in ways God permits. Demons, for example, are able to tempt and influence people even though they lack bodies. We also see many clear examples of angels speaking to, guiding, and delivering messages to humans throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

If God allows fallen angels and holy angels to communicate and interact with us, it's reasonable to believe He also allows His perfected saints in heaven, who are fully united with Christ and free from sin, to hear our requests for prayer and to intercede for us. This doesn't require them to be omniscient or omnipresent. They are simply part of the same Body of Christ we belong to (the Church triumphant in heaven and the Church militant on earth).
As Christians, we're all called to intercede for one another. Why would that calling suddenly end at death? It seems far more likely that our ability to love, pray, and intercede for one another is perfected in heaven rather than ended by it.

---

This sounds good and I won't say it doesn't make sense, but it's conjecture.

(And I wish I had chosen other words than "dead person" because I agree about being alive)

---

I appreciate the common ground we can find here, but I would push back a bit on calling it conjecture, obviously. The intercession of the saints has been a widespread and consistent belief and practice in both the Eastern and Western Church for nearly 2000 years. I understand why it can feel like conjecture from a strict Sola Scriptura perspective. As Trent Horn often points out in these discussions, this approach can sometimes mirror the way atheists challenge core Christian beliefs.

The reality is that we both accept important Christian doctrines that aren't explicitly detailed in a single verse: the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, and even worshiping on Sunday rather than Saturday. We accept them because they flow logically from Scripture understood in light of the historic witness of the Church. For Catholics and Orthodox, the intercession of the saints belongs in that same category.

If we dismiss something as conjecture simply because it's not explicitly stated in the exact wording we want, we risk opening the door to the same skepticism that leads people to question core doctrines we both hold. That's why I believe it's important to give serious weight to the historic witness of the Church.

I am just going off of AI at this point, but the response I got when questioning the early church and their teaching of intercession by saints of old was that they "encouraged prayer to God directly, asked living Christians to pray for one another, honored the martyrs, and did not record prayers addressed to deceased believers." This sounds solid and in line with Scripture, if true.

Furthermore, what seems mostly clear is that like other practices and doctrine, there was not widespread agreement until the 4th and 5th centuries. Maybe the all powerful AI is missing something, which is obviously a possibility.

The earliest known prayer to Mary is the Sub tuum praesidium, dated to roughly 250300. There's also a recent discovery in Frankfurt, Germany, of a Christian burial from the late 3rd century that includes a prayer invoking St. Titus alongside praise of Christ. Additionally, we have 3rd century inscriptions in the Roman catacombs with direct requests to Sts. Peter and Paul.

That's quite early, all things considered. It is possible the dating could be debated, I'm no expert here, it seems to me that 3rd - 4th century is a pretty good estimate though. We also have to keep the historical context in mind. Most people in the ancient world were illiterate, and everyday personal prayers were rarely written down or preserved. The fact that we have any surviving examples is actually remarkable. So an argument from silence doesn't necessarily mean the practice wasn't happening or widespread.

It's also important to remember that Christians were heavily persecuted during the first 3-4 centuries. To expect significant evidences prior to the legalization of Christianity is misplaced IMO.

Faithful Ag said:

---

It's also important to remember that Christians were heavily persecuted during the first 3-4 centuries. To expect significant evidences prior to the legalization of Christianity is misplaced IMO.

---

This is exactly my reasoning of why there is not many breadcrumbs for reformed ideas before Augustine, like justification by faith alone. I can cherry pick plenty of quotes from early church fathers that sounds like something Luther would have said, but they were most definitely trying to survive and advance the very basic ideas of who Christ was and who the Holy Spirit was.

The so called advantage of the Catholic (West or East) Church is that there are clear teachings connected by apostolic succession. If there was not clear evidence of intercession of the saints for 300 years...why would the Catholic church hold so dearly to it now?

Srby said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Srby said:

---

First, I'd point out that our God is the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38). Those who have passed on in Christ are not dead in the way we often think, they are more alive than we are, perfected in His presence.

On the question of whether they can hear us, I would like to summarize a question I had back on page 2: Scripture shows us that non-corporeal beings (without physical bodies) can and do interact with humans in ways God permits. Demons, for example, are able to tempt and influence people even though they lack bodies. We also see many clear examples of angels speaking to, guiding, and delivering messages to humans throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

If God allows fallen angels and holy angels to communicate and interact with us, it's reasonable to believe He also allows His perfected saints in heaven, who are fully united with Christ and free from sin, to hear our requests for prayer and to intercede for us. This doesn't require them to be omniscient or omnipresent. They are simply part of the same Body of Christ we belong to (the Church triumphant in heaven and the Church militant on earth).
As Christians, we're all called to intercede for one another. Why would that calling suddenly end at death? It seems far more likely that our ability to love, pray, and intercede for one another is perfected in heaven rather than ended by it.

---

This sounds good and I won't say it doesn't make sense, but it's conjecture.

(And I wish I had chosen other words than "dead person" because I agree about being alive)

---

I appreciate the common ground we can find here, but I would push back a bit on calling it conjecture, obviously. The intercession of the saints has been a widespread and consistent belief and practice in both the Eastern and Western Church for nearly 2000 years. I understand why it can feel like conjecture from a strict Sola Scriptura perspective. As Trent Horn often points out in these discussions, this approach can sometimes mirror the way atheists challenge core Christian beliefs.

The reality is that we both accept important Christian doctrines that aren't explicitly detailed in a single verse: the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, and even worshiping on Sunday rather than Saturday. We accept them because they flow logically from Scripture understood in light of the historic witness of the Church. For Catholics and Orthodox, the intercession of the saints belongs in that same category.

If we dismiss something as conjecture simply because it's not explicitly stated in the exact wording we want, we risk opening the door to the same skepticism that leads people to question core doctrines we both hold. That's why I believe it's important to give serious weight to the historic witness of the Church.

---

I agree with most of what you said, but for me, I don't see scripture that supports this practice like I do for the doctrine of the Trinity, for example.

Who were Peter and Paul and John praying to as long as Mary was still with them?

She does it again!

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1930843560930671