I never really got the basic premise here. Having people pray for you on earth has a purpose independent of the efficacy of prayer. That doesn't seem to hold in heaven.

So then the next question is, can Mary change the mind of Jesus to answer a prayer differently?

I'm curious what people think.

Thaddeus73 said:

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To answer your question, though, I would think because no saint needs to be able to shepherd us from heaven, as Jesus is more than capable.

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What you are missing in your assertion is that while God is quite capable of acting on his own, he likes to use mankind to accomplish his purpose - Moses to part the Red Sea, Joshua to lead us into the promised land, Peter and Paul to raise dead people, John to write the book of Revelation, etc. You can lead people to Christ; so can the very much alive Mary (John 8:51 and Luke 20:38). Catholics believe in eternal life, not "soul sleep."

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You raise an interesting question: when has God ever not used human intermediaries to accomplish his purpose? The only thing I can think of is creation itself. I'm sure there are others, but nothing comes to mind.

You are correct...He works through us to accomplish his will...The Church Militant here on earth, AND the Church Triumphant in Heaven as well...

The early Church asked for prayers from the saints. We know this for a fact because of the writings on the tombstones of the dead. Catholics do what the early church did....

https://studedu.org/s213t1.html

Thaddeus73 said:

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The early Church asked for prayers from the saints. We know this for a fact because of the writings on the tombstones of the dead. Catholics do what the early church did....

https://studedu.org/s213t1.html

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I can't wrap my head around the dead praying for the dead. Strange.

Aggrad08 said:

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I never really got the basic premise here. Having people pray for you on earth has a purpose independent of the efficacy of prayer. That doesn't seem to hold in heaven.

So then the next question is, can Mary change the mind of Jesus to answer a prayer differently?

I'm curious what people think.

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The basic premise is that our souls do not die with our earthly bodies, and our purpose in God's design is not completed and does not cease with our last breath. The Apostolic faith (East and West) has always believed/taught/understood that when we fall asleep in Christ we join the cloud of witnesses and Saints while remaining in the Church. Our souls are always part of Christ's church including while embodied on earth and also after our earthly death.

The purpose of prayer is not like asking a genie in a bottle to grant our wishes, and we do not go to Mary or the saints in that way (nor to God for that matter). Seeking the intercession of the saints and reflecting on their holiness and love for Christ aids us in our ability to love and relate more powerfully. While Jesus was truly man, he was also truly God which means in some ways we are unable to fully relate to Jesus because of his divinity. However, we are able to fully relate to Mary, Joseph, and all of the saints who share only our human nature.

Prayer (petition) to and through Mary and the Saints helps us to better understand our needs, bear our crosses, and find the strength to carry them and endure conforming our lives and our wills to God's as we strive to live according to His will.

Death does not separate us from the Church or our loved ones, but rather in dying we move from the Church Militant to join the Church Triumphant…but we always remain alive in the Church.

I think sometimes the evangelical focus on the individual believers "personal relationship with their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" as being the ONLY thing that matters kind of misses the mark. we were not created to live alone and only for God. Life is much more than the individual person and their personal relationship with Jesus. That purpose and fulfillment is found in the Church and with the Saints…all of them.

It seems you acknowledge the intersession of Mary has no effect on a prayer, which is fine. We can agree it's not a genie. But then the purpose of prayer/intercession switches. I can understand the communal purpose of asking a friend to pray. But what is the communal purpose of asking the dead to pray. Particularly the dead you've never met.

I guess I don't see the community in asking Mary to deliver your prayer along with thousands of others that very second. How does that bring you closer to her like it does your friend sitting next to you? You don't know Mary, you know the idea of Mary.

They don't talk back. So how does this work?

So I'm not saying they aren't alive in heaven. I'm saying they aren't here. They can't talk to you. You can't hear them. So where is the communication that we associate with community?

Second. Let's talk about Mary sitting at the right hand of god. Now it seems you are implying that Mary can change the efficacy of prayer. That she can change a prayer that might have been answered as "no" to "yes". Is that correct?

Because I fundamentally disagree with the idea that asking a friend to pray has the added purpose of efficacy.

I'll respond to the above when I have a little time…but I'd like to understand what you think is the purpose behind asking your friend to pray for you? What is accomplished by your friend's prayer for you that your prayer is lacking? Is your friend able to change God's will?

Asking a friend to pray for you, brings that friend closer to you. It's a communal act of shared faith, concern and well being. It does not change the mind of god. It gives you emotional strength, it is a small public proclamation of each of your own reliance on faith, it's all sorts of things. But it's not to change a no to a yes.

I think the premise of changing gods mind is incompatible of omniscience.

Nvm

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 2:5
So you don't pray for your friends and family or ask them to pray for you?

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2:5

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Yes, daily. I pray it all in the name of Jesus Christ. John14:6 states there is no other way to come before the Father.

Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 Timothy 2:5
So you don't pray for your friends and family or ask them to pray for you?

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2:5

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Yes, daily. I pray it all in the name of Jesus Christ. John14:6 states there is no other way to come before the Father.

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So you don't really think Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man?

Faithful Ag said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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I can't wrap my head around the dead praying for the dead. Strange.

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you are looking through the eyes of man because from God's view the so-called "dead" are very much alive.

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I understand that but if you die and go to heaven to be with the other saints, what are they praying for for one another up there?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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The saints are worshiping God and praying for us

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But that link of tombstones was asking saints to pray for the dead. What are they praying for? They pray for one another up in heaven? Why?

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Take it up with Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4.

We believe the saints are in heaven…the saints are those who have been purified with no remaining attachment to sin. The Saints are in the Beatific vision and have been perfected and they are in the presence of God at the heavenly altar offering their prayers as incense before the lamb.

The saints are praying for those of us still embodied here on earth. And the saints are praying for the souls who have died but are not yet in Heaven. They are praying for the souls going through their purgation process who will ultimately be in Heaven and are being purified as through fire (as Catholics we call this process purgatory).

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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The saints are worshiping God and praying for us

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But that link of tombstones was asking saints to pray for the dead. What are they praying for? They pray for one another up in heaven? Why?

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Take it up with Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4.

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So you read "saints" as both those alive on earth and those alive in heaven (having died on earth). So, saints in heaven pray as well. Is that your interpretation?

Edit: Never mind; I see now we have different views of who are "saint".

Faithful Ag said:

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We believe the saints are in heaven…the saints are those who have been purified with no remaining attachment to sin. The Saints are in the Beatific vision and have been perfected and they are in the presence of God at the heavenly altar offering their prayers as incense before the lamb.

The saints are praying for those of us still embodied here on earth. And the saints are praying for the souls who have died but are not yet in Heaven. They are praying for the souls going through their purgation process who will ultimately be in Heaven and are being purified as through fire (as Catholics we call this process purgatory).

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Ah, ok. That helps; different views of who are "saints".

Howdy, it is me! said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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The saints are worshiping God and praying for us

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But that link of tombstones was asking saints to pray for the dead. What are they praying for? They pray for one another up in heaven? Why?

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Take it up with Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4.

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So you read "saints" as both those alive on earth and those alive in heaven (having died on earth). So, saints in heaven pray as well. Is that your interpretation?

Edit: Never mind; I see now we have different views of who are "saint".

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Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; (Revelation 5:8, RSV-CE)

Rev 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Revelation 8:3-4, RSV-CE)

Cheated a bit here with my Truthly app, but here is how I would respond:

Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 actually involve two distinct groups, both acting in concert:

1. The Twenty-Four Elders (and the Four Living Creatures) are the Saints in Heaven

The twenty-four elders in heaven represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven. They are the glorified faithful who now reign with Christ before the throne of the Lamb. The elders are described as priests suggested by the number twenty-four, which calls to mind the twenty-four divisions of Levitical priests (1 Chron. 2425), the harp that each holds (an instrument used by Levitical priests to play liturgical music), and the offering of incense, which was a priestly duty (Exod. 30:1).

2. The "Saints" Whose Prayers Are Being Offered are the Faithful on Earth

In the New Testament, the term "saints" normally refers to Christians living on earth (Rom. 1:7, 1 Cor. 1:2, 2 Cor. 1:1, Eph. 1:1, etc.). This passage thus depicts the saints in heaven offering to God the "prayers of the saints" on earth i.e., interceding for them.

Out of the fifty-nine times the term "saints" is used in the New Testament, only once does it refer to Christians in heaven (Colossians 1:12). All the other times, thirteen of which are found in the book of Revelation, it is used to refer to Christians on earth. That alone gives strong reason to think that Christians on earth are included among the "saints" mentioned in Revelation 5:8.

And don't forget, the Bible directly associates the prayers of the faithful on earth with incense. The Psalmist writes, "Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!" (Psalm 141:2).

And for those of us with the Book of Tobit in our canon of scripture, the phrase, "prayers of the saints," would have been familiar to any Jew who read the book of Tobit. It comes from Tobit 12:15, where the angel Raphael says, "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

The context reveals that the "prayers of the saints" included the prayer of Tobit and his daughter-in-law. In verse 12, Raphael tells Tobit, "[W]hen you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One." And so here we have explicit scriptural evidence that the phrase "prayers of the saints" includes the prayers of God's righteous on earth.

And as we see here, Rome wants to attribute to man what Scripture attributes only to God.

This goes back to what I posted above. Rome has no Scriptural support, so you play word games.

Saints in Heaven being alive does nothing to address the god-like powers that they must now have to achieve what you want with prayers. Namely, they need to arguably be in multiple places at once and/or the ability to hear and respond to some multitude of prayers.

All traits no man has held.

It is ok to acknowledge it's not Scriptural. We all know that to be the case.

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So communication is a requirement for prayer? If I decide to pray for someone without their knowledge or without their asking me to pray for them or without me informing them that I did pray for them would that prayer be wasted?

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Not wasted, but the purpose would be like any other private prayer. Is a prayer that is answered no "wasted"

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God gives us free will, and God knows what we will ultimately choose. However, God is outside all space and time and therefore yesterday is the same as tomorrow for God. This does not mean our prayers are meaningless even though God already knows how everything will go in the future (or the past) because they are all the same to him. This is why it's okay for me to pray for my mother who has passed on from this world. My prayers can help her in the past, and at the hour of her death, and through her purification process all the same.

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Yeah, you lose me completely here. Can you give one example from scripture of a prayer with backward in time causality?

Second I think you touch on the subject but didn't fully explore the ramifications. If god is omniscient, truly omniscient, then he cannot gain information. His mind cannot be changed. His will cannot be changed. To pray is not to impact the will of god unless god isn't omniscient. It can have other purposes but logically, that can't be one of them. Mary cannot change god's mind.

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I fail to understand the purpose of prayer if prayer lacks real meaning or efficacy. Jesus commands us to pray and we are instructed to pray for one another. I believe our prayers do matter.

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To pray is to utter your reliance on god. To utter your thanks, desire for forgiveness or other things. To gain personal strength, as a reminder of faith. Prayers do not, or could not alter the actions of god, not if his will is immutable.

If such is the case, then a prayer to mary becomes meaningless. As it's purported purpose was a curious sort of pass through prayer mechanism meant to enhance the effectiveness of the prayer.

Probably won't help to get your point across by belittling someone who disagrees with Rome.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Probably won't help to get your point across by belittling someone who disagrees with Rome
scripture.

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I thought scripture came to be only through the holy tradition, namely the Roman See?