Righteousness

3,011 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 5 hrs ago by 10andBOUNCE
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?
Zobel
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aggiedata said:

Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law"

Works <<of the Law>> is in view here. Not works. The Law being the Torah. And of course St Paul is correct, nowhere does the Torah say that merely following the Torah makes you righteous, or that the Torah itself is a requirement for righteousness.
Martin Q. Blank
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

I'm not sure and that maybe a separate issue, but for God to say a person is just/righteous in a judgment, yes it must be perfect.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

I'm not sure and that maybe a separate issue, but for God to say a person is just/righteous in a judgment, yes it must be perfect.


Thanks for your reply. That's not exactly what I was asking but close enough.

I would point out that Adam and Eve had original justice before God but they didn't yet have the beatific vision for which they were created. So Adam and Eve were in a state of original holiness and right relationship with God, possessing a soul capable of rational reflection, conscience, and spiritual communion with God. Their relationship with God was a close friendship and communion marked by original holiness, but not the direct unmediated vision that the saints enjoy in Heaven.

I think all this is just circumlocution until we can answer those two questions because they really are the point of all of this.
Martin Q. Blank
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I'm not sure I follow where you're going with this. Jesus communed with sinners and still does. But I said early on that the idea of justification is what causes a man to stand righteous before God.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

I'm not sure I follow where you're going with this. Jesus communed with sinners and still does. But I said early on that the idea of justification is what causes a man to stand righteous before God.


Spoiler alert: a "legal declaration of righteousness" alone is not enough to get you the beatific vision. You must actually be ontologically righteous to be in communion with God.
Martin Q. Blank
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It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.


"He" meaning the believer?

But that's not what Luther espoused, is it? Snow covered dung heap, etc etc.What about "legal" or "forensic" imputation? Isn't that integral to Sola Fide?

It feels like your understanding of imputation is veering into infusion, but forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

Further to this point, this is quite a deep dive that I commend to all of us who care about this important subject.

https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=13-06-041-b&readcode=&readtherest=true#therest

This is an article I stumbled across from back when I subscribed to Touchstone. It's written by an Orthodox Theologian, It's lengthy but worth reading if you have some time. He critiques Sproul's criticism of Roman Catholicism and "faith alone" from an Orthodox perspective. He also reviews a book by two Finnish Lutheran scholars who have a very different opinion on what Luther actually said about justification. Quite interesting.

A couple of quotes to stoke interest:

Quote:

The doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works is an attack not only on an orthodox doctrine of salvation, but on orthodox Christology and anthropology as well, since it divides the faith of Christ, by which we are justified, from the work of Christ, by which also we are justified, misplacing the justifying work of Christ in man, as well as the works of Christ that the man of faith receives as his own. Those who propose it habitually confuse the works of the law, by which St. Paul teaches that no man is justified, with the work of Christ in us by which both Paul and James assure us that we are, and in which their teaching on justification is one. So fearful are they that a justifying work might be attributed to unjust man that they cannot attribute the work of Christ to a just one. None of the works of the just are therefore the works of justification, but merely those of becoming better (sanctification), when in fact the "becoming better" is also justification since it is growth not simply toward, but in the righteousness of Christ. It cannot be one without being the other as well.


And

Quote:

The center of the point of contention is not Christ himself, but man in Christ, who partakes of his being, and hence has himself a divided nature while still in the flesh, as St. Paul teaches in Romans 7. The doctrine of simul justus et peccator, while formally correct, is misleading when it is read in accordance with abstract concepts of righteousness and sin, instead of meaning that man as the object of salvation is at once Adam and Christ. As Adam he is lost and helpless; in Christ, through true obedience to the Father, he is not: his cooperation in his salvation is true co-operation, his person is truly, by substitution, but still truly, that of Christ, and because of this, grace frees him to merit what he undeservedly receives. He is Adam and Christ, disobedient and helpless on one hand and obedient and full of grace and its power to obey on the other. As in the character of such paradoxes, any combination, mixing, or separation of the categories produces error.




Thaddeus73
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IMHO, I agree with protestants who say that Christ makes us righteous. However, I don't think it's instantaneous at the moment of belief, or at Baptism, or at any time. It has to be a lifelong process, otherwise Christ wouldn't have said in Matthew 24:13 that he who endures until the end WILL BE saved.
10andBOUNCE
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Thaddeus73 said:

IMHO, I agree with protestants who say that Christ makes us righteous. However, I don't think it's instantaneous at the moment of belief, or at Baptism, or at any time. It has to be a lifelong process, otherwise Christ wouldn't have said in Matthew 24:13 that he who endures until the end WILL BE saved.

I think if we can agree that our righteousness if from Christ only, that's a good thing. Theres a lot of other terms on both sides to get tripped up on beyond that.

Sola Christus?
 
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