Righteousness

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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?
Zobel
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aggiedata said:

Romans 3:28: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law"

Works <<of the Law>> is in view here. Not works. The Law being the Torah. And of course St Paul is correct, nowhere does the Torah say that merely following the Torah makes you righteous, or that the Torah itself is a requirement for righteousness.
Martin Q. Blank
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

I'm not sure and that maybe a separate issue, but for God to say a person is just/righteous in a judgment, yes it must be perfect.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Good stuff, but I don't think it implies that we are dunghills covered in snow, as Luther put it. Rather, I believe that righteousness is a process (i.e., "made righteous") over time that has to include obedience to Christ until death, to the Commandments, and love of neighbor and of God.

I agree, but not with respect to justification. Chrysostom on 2 Cor. 5:21: that we" also "might become," he did not say 'righteous,' but, "righteousness," and, "the righteousness of God."

Our obedience is imperfect and cannot stand at the bar of God's judgement.


MQB, two questions:

1. Must you actually be perfectly righteous/just to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

2. How does one get to have full communion with God/be in God's presence?

I'm not sure and that maybe a separate issue, but for God to say a person is just/righteous in a judgment, yes it must be perfect.


Thanks for your reply. That's not exactly what I was asking but close enough.

I would point out that Adam and Eve had original justice before God but they didn't yet have the beatific vision for which they were created. So Adam and Eve were in a state of original holiness and right relationship with God, possessing a soul capable of rational reflection, conscience, and spiritual communion with God. Their relationship with God was a close friendship and communion marked by original holiness, but not the direct unmediated vision that the saints enjoy in Heaven.

I think all this is just circumlocution until we can answer those two questions because they really are the point of all of this.
Martin Q. Blank
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I'm not sure I follow where you're going with this. Jesus communed with sinners and still does. But I said early on that the idea of justification is what causes a man to stand righteous before God.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

I'm not sure I follow where you're going with this. Jesus communed with sinners and still does. But I said early on that the idea of justification is what causes a man to stand righteous before God.


Spoiler alert: a "legal declaration of righteousness" alone is not enough to get you the beatific vision. You must actually be ontologically righteous to be in communion with God.
Martin Q. Blank
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It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.


"He" meaning the believer?

But that's not what Luther espoused, is it? Snow covered dung heap, etc etc.What about "legal" or "forensic" imputation? Isn't that integral to Sola Fide?

It feels like your understanding of imputation is veering into infusion, but forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

Further to this point, this is quite a deep dive that I commend to all of us who care about this important subject.

https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=13-06-041-b&readcode=&readtherest=true#therest

This is an article I stumbled across from back when I subscribed to Touchstone. It's written by an Orthodox Theologian, It's lengthy but worth reading if you have some time. He critiques Sproul's criticism of Roman Catholicism and "faith alone" from an Orthodox perspective. He also reviews a book by two Finnish Lutheran scholars who have a very different opinion on what Luther actually said about justification. Quite interesting.

A couple of quotes to stoke interest:

Quote:

The doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works is an attack not only on an orthodox doctrine of salvation, but on orthodox Christology and anthropology as well, since it divides the faith of Christ, by which we are justified, from the work of Christ, by which also we are justified, misplacing the justifying work of Christ in man, as well as the works of Christ that the man of faith receives as his own. Those who propose it habitually confuse the works of the law, by which St. Paul teaches that no man is justified, with the work of Christ in us by which both Paul and James assure us that we are, and in which their teaching on justification is one. So fearful are they that a justifying work might be attributed to unjust man that they cannot attribute the work of Christ to a just one. None of the works of the just are therefore the works of justification, but merely those of becoming better (sanctification), when in fact the "becoming better" is also justification since it is growth not simply toward, but in the righteousness of Christ. It cannot be one without being the other as well.


And

Quote:

The center of the point of contention is not Christ himself, but man in Christ, who partakes of his being, and hence has himself a divided nature while still in the flesh, as St. Paul teaches in Romans 7. The doctrine of simul justus et peccator, while formally correct, is misleading when it is read in accordance with abstract concepts of righteousness and sin, instead of meaning that man as the object of salvation is at once Adam and Christ. As Adam he is lost and helpless; in Christ, through true obedience to the Father, he is not: his cooperation in his salvation is true co-operation, his person is truly, by substitution, but still truly, that of Christ, and because of this, grace frees him to merit what he undeservedly receives. He is Adam and Christ, disobedient and helpless on one hand and obedient and full of grace and its power to obey on the other. As in the character of such paradoxes, any combination, mixing, or separation of the categories produces error.




Thaddeus73
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IMHO, I agree with protestants who say that Christ makes us righteous. However, I don't think it's instantaneous at the moment of belief, or at Baptism, or at any time. It has to be a lifelong process, otherwise Christ wouldn't have said in Matthew 24:13 that he who endures until the end WILL BE saved.
10andBOUNCE
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Thaddeus73 said:

IMHO, I agree with protestants who say that Christ makes us righteous. However, I don't think it's instantaneous at the moment of belief, or at Baptism, or at any time. It has to be a lifelong process, otherwise Christ wouldn't have said in Matthew 24:13 that he who endures until the end WILL BE saved.

I think if we can agree that our righteousness if from Christ only, that's a good thing. Theres a lot of other terms on both sides to get tripped up on beyond that.

Sola Christus?
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

I think if we can agree that our righteousness if from Christ only, that's a good thing. Theres a lot of other terms on both sides to get tripped up on beyond that.

Sola Christus?

I am sola-phobic. To say "Christ alone" kinda leaves out the Father and the Holy Spirit, who are equally divine, and who also play a part in our salvation.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Good reason to be sola phobic.

Quote:

The doctrine of grace put forward by the Reformed evangelicalism represented by Dr. Sproul is Christologically deficient, and so to be energetically rejected by faithful Christians. While it correctly recognizes salvation as preeminently the work of God, it does not sufficiently recognize that it is also the work of man since it is the work of the God-Man in whom the redeemed live. In the understandable and praiseworthy intention of making sure that it attributes nothing to man who in sin and finitude is helpless to save himself, it slights man in his perfection and divine power who through obedience cooperates with the Father in the salvation of man, that is, Christ, and those whose life is hidden in him.


https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=13-06-041-b&readcode=&readtherest=true#therest
Thaddeus73
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None of the solas mention "love," which Paul says is greater than faith, in 1 Corinthians 13:13. I don't believe in intellectually believing in 5 things and then saying I'm Saved because of my belief in those 5 things, Rather, Jesus left us 2 new commandments to LOVE God and neighbor, and He gives us the grace to do that, if we want it. Both grace and love are in the heart, not the brain...
10andBOUNCE
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Thaddeus73 said:

Quote:

I think if we can agree that our righteousness if from Christ only, that's a good thing. Theres a lot of other terms on both sides to get tripped up on beyond that.

Sola Christus?

I am sola-phobic. To say "Christ alone" kinda leaves out the Father and the Holy Spirit, who are equally divine, and who also play a part in our salvation.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Colossians 1:15-20

The Preeminence of Christ

[15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [18] And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [19] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [20] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Zobel
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That doesn't address the point he's making.
Thaddeus73
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By adding the non-biblical word "alone" to Christ negates the role of the Father and the Holy Spirit. To deny the Father and the Holy Spirit as being active in our salvation is very un-biblical...
Martin Q. Blank
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.


"He" meaning the believer?

But that's not what Luther espoused, is it? Snow covered dung heap, etc etc.What about "legal" or "forensic" imputation? Isn't that integral to Sola Fide?

It feels like your understanding of imputation is veering into infusion, but forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

I'm not particularly familiar with Luther's teachings. But yes, righteousness/justice has to do with the law. It is legal. The imputation is Christ's righteousness - his obedience to the law's requirements and his suffering under the law's punishment.

We reject the idea of infusion primarily because of "the great exchange". Christ was not infused with our sin, it was imputed.
10andBOUNCE
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Thaddeus73 said:

By adding the non-biblical word "alone" to Christ negates the role of the Father and the Holy Spirit. To deny the Father and the Holy Spirit as being active in our salvation is very un-biblical...

The Holy Spirit is often referred to as the Spirt of Christ, and Christ is the giver of this Spirit.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Martin Q. Blank said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

It's not a legal declaration of righteousness while in reality you're not. Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer. It becomes his. He is ontologically righteous.


"He" meaning the believer?

But that's not what Luther espoused, is it? Snow covered dung heap, etc etc.What about "legal" or "forensic" imputation? Isn't that integral to Sola Fide?

It feels like your understanding of imputation is veering into infusion, but forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.


I'm not particularly familiar with Luther's teachings. But yes, righteousness/justice has to do with the law. It is legal. The imputation is Christ's righteousness - his obedience to the law's requirements and his suffering under the law's punishment.

We reject the idea of infusion primarily because of "the great exchange". Christ was not infused with our sin, it was imputed.


If you have time give the article I posted above a read. It's not light reading but it is very thought provoking.
Martin Q. Blank
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Yes, nothing new. It really boils down to what justification is as pointed out on post #3 of this thread. Until that is agreed upon, how it becomes ours will not be agreed upon.

You include in it sanctification and renewal. Although we believe works are necessary to salvation, we do not believe it is the cause. It may justify us before men (even ourselves), but not before God. Our works are defective. And your righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees or you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Our sanctification and renewal are imperfect and cannot satisfy God's justice. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags."
Zobel
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I don't think "Torah" and "law" in modern parlance is a very good correlation, especially when you start saying things like "legal". Torah does not mean law in Hebrew, it literally means instruction or teaching. And "nomos" doesn't strictly correspond to law like that in Greek, it is much broader - it covers everything from law codes to culture and way of life.

If we can't say the same things about our understanding with Torah instead of Law, then our conception is bad. It should be able to encompass commandments (laws) as well as teaching, culture, way of life, and ritual practices.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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This "Catechism in a Year" email popped up in my
Inbox today and I thought it was worth sharing in this thread:

27. What does it mean in practice for a person to believe in God?

It means to adhere to God himself, entrusting oneself to him and giving assent to all the truths which God has revealed because God is Truth. It means to believe in one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Further reading: CCC 150-152, 176-178


28. What are the characteristics of faith?

Faith is the supernatural virtue which is necessary for salvation. It is a free gift of God and is accessible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a human act, that is, an act of the intellect of a person - prompted by the will moved by God - who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it works "through charity" (Galatians 5:6); and it continually grows through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a foretaste of the joys of heaven.
Thaddeus73
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