Quo Vadis? said:one MEEN Ag said:Quo Vadis? said:one MEEN Ag said:Quo Vadis? said:one MEEN Ag said:Quo Vadis? said:
If it makes you guys feel better, the selling of indulgences is a sin; and I would have had no problem with burning the clergy who purposely did it at the stake either.
Well you're in luck, because the catholic church still participates in the indulgence economy. You can't buy indulgences now, but they are reward points you have earn. The underpinning theology behind indulgences was never condemned as it is a central part of catholic teaching - that you have to make atonement for your sins even though you are forgiven. Temporal punishment is such a bedrock catholic teaching that indulgences will never go away.
It is completely transactional. Almost islamic like view of judgement.
Yes, indulgences are fine. It's the selling of them that is wrong.
You couldn't buy indulgences now, or indulgences then, licitly. Bad people did bad things.
See I actually believe that you should be able to buy indulgences. Christ tells us that one of the most aspirational thing you could do is to sell all your possessions and give to the poor. Who better to hand that out than the church? This is a good thing. St. John Chrysosdom is very adamant that almsgiving to the church is an incredibly great thing to do. You are accomplishing three things in one, you are sacrificing in Gods name. You are being obedient to the teachings of the church, and the church is going to flourish with your gift.
Why should, in Catholic parlance, that gift not count towards my temporal punishment I am due for my sins?
The catholic church moving to credit card reward points where I can convert my dollars into experiences that count as indulgences does not actually change the root issue with indulgences. I would go so far as to say that it undermines tithing in general.
Giving money to secure forgiveness or lessen punishment for sins is the sin of simony because there is no conversion; there's no remorse; your money takes the place of that.
Take the example of a millionaire giving $50 for an indulgence vs giving 90% of his money to the poor. One likely shows sacrificial love to the poor, the other costs virtually nothing.
It's the same with confession; the contrite heart, the conversion, and the ministration of the Priest is how you receive absolution; not just giving cash.
Right but you've made my central point against indulgences here. You don't actually need a bartering economy of good deeds to trade for the 'stain' of your sins. You immediately recognized the goodness that is giving up your whole fortunes for Christ while on this earth, and the hollowness of just giving $50 for the removal of temporal punishment. Isn't it the same amount of hollow for a contrite prayer versus a contrite $50? You do your best when you don't even think about the temporal punishment aspect. Its vestigial to the whole process of salvation.
There is no temporal stain of sin that needs extra steps. You are free to cling to Christ as the debt has been paid. Sins cannot stick to Christ that's part of the point of him doing miracles on earth. Sins making things unclean by proximity, Christ makes things clean by His proximity.
There isn't the economic layer to the good deeds you do. Indulgences create this Japanese Giri like process that strips the love and heart and joy from the action.
I think you're looking at it too deeply, it's the "time off your sentence for good behavior" which has a pretty decent foundation even in the earliest years of our faith.
Sts.Augustine recommending fasting, almsgiving, and regular prayer to help remove temporal punishments for sin. Cyprian mentioning his approval of bishops shortening penances for lapsed Christians based on the prayers of the community. John Chrysostom saying almsgiving extinguishes the fire of punishment.
If the power to bind and loose extends to sin, why not temporal punishment of sin? I'm loose on the orthodox ideas of purgatory, but I thought that toll houses may or may not be present in some of the churches of the east, and they were somewhat analogous.
There are some overlaps but its not the same. Within the life of the church in orthodoxy there isn't any mechanism keeping score. Yes you do prayer, fasting, almsgiving, confession, communion, feasting, participate in the cycles/seasons of the church, veneration of saints and participating in specific services. You're climbing jacob's ladder, but those actions don't go up against a big box score to reduce temporal punishment. There isn't a place in orthodoxy for you to even be temporarily punished.
Tollhouses are not dogma unlike catholic temporal punishment. And even within tollhouse visions the angels go, 'he confessed these sins, he repented of these sins,' and you move onto the next tollhouse. There isn't a level of further extraction of punishment from you besides just having your sins played out in front of you.
But even then, tollhouses are within a greater context of the process of death. If you are not a saint or a martyr there is no guarantee you are immediately taken to the presence of Christ. You spend some time (generally 40 days) reflecting on your life as you move towards your destination. Of course this is outside of time but the period of reflection is generally seen as 40 days here on earth with heavier emphasis on the time immediately after death.
