Zobel said:
you asked which group has the gospel as taught by the apostles - the apostolic teaching, or the apostolic deposit of faith. the one the bible says was passed down once for all to the saints.
my question to you is, if we were going to look at this with fresh eyes, zero bias, zero presuppositions... how would we figure this out?
what would we look for as evidence?
what tests would we come up with?
how could we do this as a question of actual fact, not opinion?
Quo Vadis? said:10andBOUNCE said:
Kinda weird the same early Church who endured persecution and saints who sacrificed their lives for the gospel are now the ones okay burning those who are dying as they profess grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone.
These people were willing to die for their faith, but were going to apostatize over some made up sola's?
Create Account said:Zobel said:
you asked which group has the gospel as taught by the apostles - the apostolic teaching, or the apostolic deposit of faith. the one the bible says was passed down once for all to the saints.
my question to you is, if we were going to look at this with fresh eyes, zero bias, zero presuppositions... how would we figure this out?
what would we look for as evidence?
what tests would we come up with?
how could we do this as a question of actual fact, not opinion?
Read the Bible?
dermdoc said:Zobel said:
this is not true. read the torah again.
I read the Bible. What I said is specifically mentioned in the NT.
Truly curious, do you follow all the I nelieve 713 laws of the Torah? If so, I am impressed.
I have always been taught Christ took away all the laws with the New Covenant. You obviously believe differently.
I know some Orthodox folk and a priest. Have never heard them take this line of reasoning.
Zobel said:dermdoc said:Zobel said:
this is not true. read the torah again.
I read the Bible. What I said is specifically mentioned in the NT.
Truly curious, do you follow all the I nelieve 713 laws of the Torah? If so, I am impressed.
I have always been taught Christ took away all the laws with the New Covenant. You obviously believe differently.
I know some Orthodox folk and a priest. Have never heard them take this line of reasoning.
Christ says the opposite - that he didn't come to abolish the Torah, and anyone who teaches people to not follow the Torah is least in the kingdom.
I follow all of the Torah that is applicable to me as a gentile Christian. The church continued to keep the Torah.
Zobel said:
Where'd you get the Bible from and how do you know that it's reliable?
Zobel said:dermdoc said:Zobel said:
this is not true. read the torah again.
I read the Bible. What I said is specifically mentioned in the NT.
Truly curious, do you follow all the I nelieve 713 laws of the Torah? If so, I am impressed.
I have always been taught Christ took away all the laws with the New Covenant. You obviously believe differently.
I know some Orthodox folk and a priest. Have never heard them take this line of reasoning.
Christ says the opposite - that he didn't come to abolish the Torah, and anyone who teaches people to not follow the Torah is least in the kingdom.
I follow all of the Torah that is applicable to me as a gentile Christian. The church continued to keep the Torah.
Create Account said:Zobel said:
Where'd you get the Bible from and how do you know that it's reliable?
I would get it from the book store. I'm not sure how to answer your second question. I would just know by reading it.
Zobel said:Create Account said:Zobel said:
Where'd you get the Bible from and how do you know that it's reliable?
I would get it from the book store. I'm not sure how to answer your second question. I would just know by reading it.
I can't tell if you're being flippant or serious. What do you think people did in, say the 3rd century? Or the 9th? Or 13th?
Zobel said:
That is a literal application of the Torah by the apostles. In other words, that means the Torah is still applicable to the church.
And St Paul refers directly to it when he says - expel the wicked from among you.
Zobel said:
ok, one at a time.
first, if you say "i'm going to follow the council of Jerusalem" that's good. my question is why stop at that council, and not follow all the rest?
two, as i mentioned, that council examined the question of what to do about the gentiles, and where did the apostles go to get the answer? Leviticus. they took a close reading of Leviticus, and applied all the holiness code commandments that were given to both the sons of Israel and the foreigners dwelling among them in the land. this affirms that the torah applies to the church.
next, you cut the Lord's quote short. "...For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." He goes on, but the point i'd like to make is it sure does seem like you are suggesting that St Paul is contradicting Christ, and it sure does seem like you're removing a whole lot (basically all?) of the torah from your life. how is your "fulfilled" different than "abolished"? they look functionally identical from here. St Paul denies teaching people to not follow the Torah.
then... St Paul quotes from the Torah as authoritative. specifically in the matter of church discipline - which you said the Torah doesn't say - he quotes the torah where it is explicitly talking about death, for the crime which he is discussing with the Corinthians! (Lev 20:11)! how can you say the Torah doesn't apply to church discipline??
yes the pharisees criticized Christ for not following the Torah, and they were WRONG. the point that Christ makes is that their understanding and application of the Torah is WRONG. HE was right - HE gave them the Torah. THEY were wrong, they misunderstood it. the Torah was never given to prevent someone from, for example, saving a life on the Sabbath. you either say - Christ broke His own law (??) and they pharisees were right in accusing Him (??!!) - or they were wrong and He did not. since the psalms and prophets say he has no sin, and the Torah reveals sin, i don't think we should say Christ broke violated the Torah. Especially because He specifically says He fulfills it.
A changed heart doesn't mean you don't follow the Torah. A changed heart means if you have love for your neighbor, you won't break the Torah. That is exactly what St Paul teaches (Gal 5:14) which echoes the words of the Lord (Matthew 22:40). you quoted the fruits of the Spirit - that comes in a discourse about the Torah, where St Paul concludes with saying "against such things there is no law," meaning, if you do these things you will fulfill the torah.
and if we're going to say - only council of Jerusalem applies - what about the ten commandments? are you free to murder, commit adultery? of course not. there is nowhere in the scriptures that says what is and isn't applicable, because it is ALL applicable. and in fact the scriptures explicitly say that 1) it is all applicable forever and 2) it was never canceled. otherwise we make St Paul -- and the Lord!! -- a liar.
Zobel said:
i think this is flippant, then? hard to say.
Zobel said:
and what does this mean? what is this story in the context of? a gentile.
gentiles were unclean, because they were out in the world. but Christ in His death and self-offering made atonement, purification, for all of creation.
the point isn't that the law was broken, or that things were never clean or unclean, it was that through the blood of Christ all mankind could come to the God of Israel, because He had made them clean.
Zobel said:
They were unclean, yes. They were not allowed to be in the temple or participate in the sacrifices or Passover. To do that you had to become an Israelite, be circumcised. Then you weren't a gentile any more.
Now you don't. Hence the confusion at the council of Jerusalem.
Because the gospel is a Christian message. It comes from the Bible. Not the book of mormon or quran.Zobel said:
You said which denomination had the gospel passed down from the apostles and to find out you said you'd go buy a Bible and read it. But why read the Bible and not maybe the Quran or Book of Mormon? I'm saying, how do you know the Bible is right? How do we know what the apostles taught? I'm asking because I'm trying to actually get to your question. Not asking in bad faith.
PabloSerna said:
A very timely discussion as we in the RCC celebrate a landmark document, Nostra Aetate, written 60 years ago that reset previous Catholic - Jewish relationships.
From the prayer service 2 days ago,
"Pope Leo XIV referenced "Nostra Aetate," which set forth the Catholic Church's relation to non-Christian religions, in an Oct. 28 interfaith prayer service closing the "International Meeting for Peace: Religions and Cultures in Dialogue" in Rome.
Stressing the need for dialogue and friendship, Pope Leo noted the gathering took place on the 60th anniversary of "Nostra Aetate," and referenced the text directly, saying, "We cannot truly pray to God as Father of all if we treat any people as other than sisters and brothers, for all are created in God's image."
+++
From the Catholic standpoint, we do not believe in a "replacement theology" when it comes to our Jewish brothers and sisters. We pray alongside them to the same God.
I already answered that. I read it and I think it's true. The muslims and mormons basically have the same message that one person went off and had a vision and came back and said "everybody is wrong and this book I was given is true." Obviously hoax if you ask me.Zobel said:
Both the Muslims and the Mormons say the Christian faith isn't right, and they have the true message of Jesus.
How do we know what the apostles taught? How do you know that the Bible has the right info in it?
Zobel said:
Both the Muslims and the Mormons say the Christian faith isn't right, and they have the true message of Jesus.
How do we know what the apostles taught? How do you know that the Bible has the right info in it?
Create Account said:Zobel said:
Both the Muslims and the Mormons say the Christian faith isn't right, and they have the true message of Jesus.
How do we know what the apostles taught? How do you know that the Bible has the right info in it?
I already answered that. I read it and I think it's true. The muslims and mormons basically have the same message that one person went off and had a vision and came back and said "everybody is wrong and this book I was given is true." Obviously hoax if you ask me.
Zobel said:
Both the Muslims and the Mormons say the Christian faith isn't right, and they have the true message of Jesus.
How do we know what the apostles taught? How do you know that the Bible has the right info in it?
