No. Christ died for all and His sacrifice was sufficient grace for all and we are completely cleansed with no need to do any extra work once we are dead to finish His work. You can reject His grace but you can not contribute to your own salvation.

It's not work. You are already saved

swimmerbabe11 said:

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No. Christ died for all and His sacrifice was sufficient grace for all and we are completely cleansed with no need to do any extra work once we are dead to finish His work. You can reject His grace but you can not contribute to your own salvation.

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Amen.

dermdoc said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Well, I also don't believe I have to "do" atonement. I believe, I repent, I have faith in Christ that he did the thing. I can't imagine saying "I mean, yeah, Christ did all this. God the Father sent His ONLY son for this reason, but He still needs me to do a couple sprints to make up that last leg." Why would He send His only son if it wasn't actually good enough to get us into Heaven? Imagine that.

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Agree. Just curious as a Lutheran if you believe in limited atonement. I do not.

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Why ya always gotta go here?

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His grace but you can not contribute to your own salvation.

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Big time heresy in your quote...Faith without WORKS is dead....Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, says the Bible...

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Well, I also don't believe I have to "do" atonement. I believe, I repent, I have faith in Christ that he did the thing. I can't imagine saying "I mean, yeah, Christ did all this. God the Father sent His ONLY son for this reason, but He still needs me to do a couple sprints to make up that last leg." Why would He send His only son if it wasn't actually good enough to get us into Heaven? Imagine that.

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Agree. Just curious as a Lutheran if you believe in limited atonement. I do not.

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Why ya always gotta go here?

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Because it is incredibly important. I do not want my family being taught limited atonement. Sorry if that bothers you.

And shouldn't you be proud of your theology?

Works are a symptom of faith, not a cause of it. Plenty of moral people doing good deeds won't find Heaven's gates.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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so you have to be purified by fire until you are pure enough to get into heaven....therefore... Christ didn't do enough to get you into Heaven alone. This is what you are saying.

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We speaking different languages.

You are saying that anyone who is saved is already perfected and at death is automatically welcomed into the beatific vision. But as I understand forensic justification, any righteousness is imputed and not actual. So at some point following death, the imputed righteousness of Jesus's snow is going to give way to the dung heap of a person underneath and that dung heap is going to need some purification before entering into God's presence.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Works are a symptom of faith, not a cause of it. Plenty of moral people doing good deeds won't find Heaven's gates.

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What kind of works and how much? What's the salvation cutoff?

You have to bear good fruit or you will be thrown into the fire, the bible says in Matthew 7:19...

Colossians 1:10: to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

How can protestants totally ignore these 2 scriptures?...Catholics are more bible Christians than those who ignore these 2 verses...

Thaddeus73 said:

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You have to bear good fruit or you will be thrown into the fire, the bible says in Matthew 7:19...

Colossians 1:10: to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

How can protestants totally ignore these 2 scriptures?...Catholics are more bible Christians than those who ignore these 2 verses...

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I believe we produce good fruit automatically in synergism with the Spirit after being born again.

I am curious to the translation of the word "fire" in Matthew 7 19. Is it a purifying, refining fire? Or a punishing fire?

Either way, I do not want to find out.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Works are a symptom of faith, not a cause of it. Plenty of moral people doing good deeds won't find Heaven's gates.

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What kind of works and how much? What's the salvation cutoff?

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And who determines what are "good works"? Very slippery slope. And a lot of Christians judge others based on their perception of a lack of good works. Lordship salvation theology comes to mind.

I personally believe we all have our role and should not compare ourselves to others. Listen to God.

Here are some good works that the bible says we must do in order to get to heaven...

Matthew 25: 31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Thaddeus73 said:

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Here are some good works that the bible says we must do in order to get to heaven...

Matthew 25: 31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Yes, of course. But that doesn't address the sufficiency issue.

If I do all of those is that enough? What about some but not all? What if I do one of those?

dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Works are a symptom of faith, not a cause of it. Plenty of moral people doing good deeds won't find Heaven's gates.

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What kind of works and how much? What's the salvation cutoff?

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And who determines what are "good works"? Very slippery slope. And a lot of Christians judge others based on their perception of a lack of good works. Lordship salvation theology comes to mind.

I personally believe we all have our role and should not compare ourselves to others. Listen to God.

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I am coming at this from the perspective of forensic justification vs ontological transformation, with the subtext of the need for purification. If one takes the forensic path then I don't see how it is possible to avoid the need for purification prior to entering into the beatific vision. It's what I would colloquially call "spiritual physics" and I think most protestants agree that nothing impure can enter into communion with God so some purification is needed at some point in some sense.

From the ontological transformation perspective it is possible by God's grace to achieve a state of moral perfection prior to death, although it seems to be relatively rare. Those souls enter into the beatific vision upon death without the need for any purification. We call them saints. Even those who the church declares as saints might have required a little cleaning up prior to entering into the beatific vision but they are saints nonetheless. Everyone else who dies in God's friendship will require some form of purification to allow them to become free of all disordered attachments prior to entering into the beatific vision. That freeing from disordered attachments is what we call purgatory.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Here are some good works that the bible says we must do in order to get to heaven...

Matthew 25: 31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Jesus gets me to Heaven. Not anything I do.

And I am as pro works as there is.

dermdoc said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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Here are some good works that the bible says we must do in order to get to heaven...

Matthew 25: 31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Jesus gets me to Heaven. Not anything I do.

And I am as pro works as there is.

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This is where the Catholic "both/and" works nicely. Jesus gets us to heaven, but how? He does it by transforming our inner self, by his grace (which is a participation in his divine life), and he effectuates that transformation by calling us to do "good works" but we still must DO them. So it is Jesus and the works that he calls us to that transform us. At the end of the day, when the scenario foretold in Matthew 25 plays out in our lives, if we have done those things that Jesus judges as worthy, then we will inherit eternal life. When Jesus welcomes us into our inheritance, he is rewarding his own merits in which we freely chose to participate. It's both Jesus and our participation in his life. If we want to be his disciples we must deny ourselves, take up our cross daily and follow him. Choosing to deny ourselves (dying to self), take up our cross and follow him are all "good works" and when done by a child of God are meritorious for our salvation (which is not merely being saved from never-ending death, but being saved FOR communion with our creator).

Faith without works is dead, and dead faith is no faith..

Choose wisely..

Thaddeus73 said:

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Faith without works is dead, and dead faith is no faith..

Choose wisely..

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Doing good works bring joy, peace, and fulfillment. And it is a lot of fun.

But I believe my salvation comes solely by the blood of Jesus Christ.

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If I do all of those is that enough? What about some but not all? What if I do one of those?

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Just do them in the name of Jesus and don't worry about it....Jesus will let you know when you die....

swimmerbabe11 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Why is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory so difficult to accept?

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Because if purgatory is real, then Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to cover my sins and I have to make up the difference. Purgatory undermines the crucifixion.

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1. Purgatory does not undermine the crucifixion because you can only go to heaven from purgatory.

2. Purgatory properly understood is temporal punishment due for sins forgiven. The example given is that of breaking your neighbor's window, being forgiven, then cutting their grass for some time as punishment.

Where you see purgatory as undermining the sacrifice of Jesus, we see it as the mercy of God for us that believe in Jesus, repented, but continue to struggle to do the right thing. For some that struggle could be harmful to others, even resulting in more sinful ways. By continuing to struggle, ask forgiveness, and try- we can be renewed. It is more of a process. The fallout of our sins forgiven, is the justice of God who is all knowing,

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2. Purgatory properly understood is temporal punishment due for sins forgiven. The example given is that of breaking your neighbor's window, being forgiven, then cutting their grass for some time as punishment.

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You left out the part where breaking my neighbor's window required the death of the Son of God. How does cutting grass even begin to compare?

Thaddeus73 said:

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If I do all of those is that enough? What about some but not all? What if I do one of those?

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Just do them in the name of Jesus and don't worry about it....Jesus will let you know when you die....

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I think you are missing my point.

My point is that Jesus said to perform good works in His name, as He is the vine and we are the branches. It's not up to you to decide whether or not you've done enough. If we are the good servants in His vineyard, then we will work for His Kingdom to produce good fruit, and He will decide at the end if we have been good and faithful servants, not you...