Phil 1:6 we can be confident that He will carry it on. Confidence in Him is a given. Doesn't mean we can't abandon Him. For example, 2 Tim 2 says - "if we deny Him, He will also deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Our faithlessness does not change Him.

Being sealed with the Spirit is part of the chrismation ceremony during Holy Baptism. The baptized person is anointed on the hands, feet, eyes, ears, neck, breast, and the priest says "sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit". So this is saying, when you heard, and believed, you were baptized and chrismated and received the Spirit. The Spirit Himself is the promise of the salvation - the guarantee of our inheritance. But again, our being heirs is the conditioned on our faithfulness to the heir, who is Christ. Same as above - we may be faithless, but He is faithful. The Spirit is the witness of the promise, but does not guarantee our salvation if we are faithless.

For John 10:27-39, this is the same. We may be sheep, but if we stop listening to his voice and stop following, no one has taken us from His hand, but we can leave.

Quote:

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And are you referring to 'washings' in Heb. 6:3 when you talk about baptism? I'm a little lost there.

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No, baptism is often referred to as illumination or enlightenment. He says it again in Hebrews 10:32 - "after you were enlightened"

Mostly Peaceful said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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So what about Phil 1:6, Eph. 1:13-14, John 10:27-39? I understand your argument, but eternal security is all over the New Testament.

And are you referring to 'washings' in Heb. 6:3 when you talk about baptism? I'm a little lost there.

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Phil1:6 - "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

• I don't see how that supports eternal security. It supports having justified confidence and a firm and trustworthy hope founded in faith that God will give you the grace necessary to persevere, but I don't see how you get certainty out of that. If anything, that verse supports the idea of salvation being a PROCESS and not a one time event.

Ephesians 1:13-14 - "In him also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

• I understand how one can read this as being some sort of "guarantee" since the word is right there, but the bolded phrase indicates it is not yet ours. Moreover, when read with the other passages of scripture that indicate salvation is not something that is assured until we die in God's friendship, the better reading is that those of us who have faith and are in friendship with God can be confident of our eternal destination provided that we don't presume or stop living a life of loving God and neighbor.

John 10:37-39 - not going to type all of it, but the key verse is presumably verse 28 "... and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

• Definitely the strongest scripture passage you shared, but I still don't think it seals the deal. It doesn't say that the sheep can't of their own volition remove themselves from Jesus' or the Father's hands. This ultimately goes back to free will and all the other things that have been discussed elsewhere, but we know there are real examples in scripture of believers who apostatized. See Zobel's example above.

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So basically you understand how those verses, and there are certainly more (1 Pet. 1:4-5, Rom. 8:38-39), can be interpreted as support for eternal security, you just see it differently. I'd say the same in regard to Heb. 6.

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That's one way to characterize the situation.

If only Jesus had thought of this he could have provided us with a way to deal with situations like this. Oh well, I guess he just intended for us to engage in endless circular discussions.

Zobel said:

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Phil 1:6 we can be confident that He will carry it on. Confidence in Him is a given. Doesn't mean we can't abandon Him. For example, 2 Tim 2 says - "if we deny Him, He will also deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." Our faithlessness does not change Him.

Being sealed with the Spirit is part of the chrismation ceremony during Holy Baptism. The baptized person is anointed on the hands, feet, eyes, ears, neck, breast, and the priest says "sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit". So this is saying, when you heard, and believed, you were baptized and chrismated and received the Spirit. The Spirit Himself is the promise of the salvation - the guarantee of our inheritance. But again, our being heirs is the conditioned on our faithfulness to the heir, who is Christ. Same as above - we may be faithless, but He is faithful. The Spirit is the witness of the promise, but does not guarantee our salvation if we are faithless.

For John 10:27-39, this is the same. We may be sheep, but if we stop listening to his voice and stop following, no one has taken us from His hand, but we can leave.

Quote:

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And are you referring to 'washings' in Heb. 6:3 when you talk about baptism? I'm a little lost there.

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No, baptism is often referred to as illumination or enlightenment. He says it again in Hebrews 10:32 - "after you were enlightened"

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It's also the same word used in John 1:9 to describe the spiritual enlightenment found in Jesus.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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So what about Phil 1:6, Eph. 1:13-14, John 10:27-39? I understand your argument, but eternal security is all over the New Testament.


And are you referring to 'washings' in Heb. 6:3 when you talk about baptism? I'm a little lost there.

---

Phil1:6 - "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

• I don't see how that supports eternal security. It supports having justified confidence and a firm and trustworthy hope founded in faith that God will give you the grace necessary to persevere, but I don't see how you get certainty out of that. If anything, that verse supports the idea of salvation being a PROCESS and not a one time event.

Ephesians 1:13-14 - "In him also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

• I understand how one can read this as being some sort of "guarantee" since the word is right there, but the bolded phrase indicates it is not yet ours. Moreover, when read with the other passages of scripture that indicate salvation is not something that is assured until we die in God's friendship, the better reading is that those of us who have faith and are in friendship with God can be confident of our eternal destination provided that we don't presume or stop living a life of loving God and neighbor.

John 10:37-39 - not going to type all of it, but the key verse is presumably verse 28 "... and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

• Definitely the strongest scripture passage you shared, but I still don't think it seals the deal. It doesn't say that the sheep can't of their own volition remove themselves from Jesus' or the Father's hands. This ultimately goes back to free will and all the other things that have been discussed elsewhere, but we know there are real examples in scripture of believers who apostatized. See Zobel's example above.

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So basically you understand how those verses, and there are certainly more (1 Pet. 1:4-5, Rom. 8:38-39), can be interpreted as support for eternal security, you just see it differently. I'd say the same in regard to Heb. 6.

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That's one way to characterize the situation.

If only Jesus had thought of this he could have provided us with a way to deal with situations like this. Oh well, I guess he just intended for us to engage in endless circular discussions.

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Point taken.

Yes. They're the same thing. Enlightenment comes from the Spirit. The Spirit is received at baptism and chrismation (ie the laying on of hands).

Sorry if that came across as rude.

Oh no, I didn't take it that way at all.