Do churches still believe in the anathemas of Nicaea II?

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10andBOUNCE
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AG
Am I misinterpreting some of these excerpts?

I guess what I am getting at is that there clearly was not a consensus, but I may be taking something out of context.

https://www.byzantineambassador.com/post/before-the-storm-the-status-of-images-in-christianity-before-iconoclasm
Quote:

Images, then, were far from forbidden but were supposed to reflect greater truths than themselves. And pagan cults were not signposts to God, but falsehoods. Therefore, the majority of Jews interpreted the second commandment as a sort of shock therapy that kept them away from idolatry (rather than a belief that images were somehow intrinsically false).

Quote:

Despite this, the early Christian theologians feared that representational art would lead people astray mainly because they would be dim enough to mistake the image for what it represented. This led some such as St Ignatius of Antioch down a rather dark Manichaean path when he claimed "nothing that is visible is good."[4] Clement of Alexandria, too, stated that "He usurps the divine power who by carving, moulding or painting claims to be a creator of flora and fauna."[5]

Quote:

This led some such as St Ignatius of Antioch down a rather dark Manichaean path when he claimed "nothing that is visible is good."[4] Clement of Alexandria, too, stated that "He usurps the divine power who by carving, moulding or painting claims to be a creator of flora and fauna."[5]

Quote:

This led some such as St Ignatius of Antioch down a rather dark Manichaean path when he claimed "nothing that is visible is good."[4] Clement of Alexandria, too, stated that "He usurps the divine power who by carving, moulding or painting claims to be a creator of flora and fauna."[5]

Quote:

Tertullian demurred. The Carthaginian thought images could have utility in Christianity but were easily abused. As much is clear from his condemnation of drinking glasses adorned with the Good Shepherd. As they were not Eucharistic chalices, it seemed flippant and disrespectful for such images to adorn ornaments that encouraged bibulous habits.[9]
Zobel
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AG
The response is absurd.

"I am not a member of this church because don't agree with this church about all of these issues including the councils. this council I don't agree with anyway says if people already in this church I'm not in and don't agree with don't agree with it they can't stay in the church. So that's why I'm not going to be in this church I am not in and don't agree with, and I'm going to argue about that council I don't agree with applies to me and is offensive even though it doesn't."
Zobel
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AG
That quote from St Clement seems suspect.

"He usurps the divine power who by carving, moulding or painting claims to be a creator of flora and fauna."

St Clement wrote in his Instructions about seal or signet rings - used like a signature.

Quote:

And let our seals be either a dove, or a fish, or a ship scudding before the wind, or a musical lyre, which Polycrates used, or a ship's anchor, which Seleucus got engraved as a device; and if there be one fishing, he will remember the apostle, and the children drawn out of the water. For we are not to delineate the faces of idols, we who are prohibited to cleave to them; nor a sword, nor a bow, following as we do, peace; nor drinking-cups, being temperate. Many of the licentious have their lovers engraved, or their mistresses, as if they wished to make it impossible ever to forget their amatory indulgences, by being perpetually put in mind of their licentiousness.

So either there's some confusion here, or that quote is taken out of context, or St Clement is telling his flock to claim to be a creator of flora and fauna by molding doves or fish on their signet rings.
Zobel
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AG
Also, since this likely is coming from Gavin Ortlund, here is an RCC response to him.
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/gavin-ortlund-on-icons-rebutted

Specifically the part about the exact quote the OP is referencing:
Quote:

Gavin cites a remark by Tarasios the Patriarch of Constantinople, who presided with the papal legate at Second Nicaea. In the quote he gives, Tarasios says, that an anathema will drive you away from God, cut you off from the kingdom of heaven, and carry you into outer darkness. Tarasios also envisions the possibility that he himself might be subject to an anathema, and found condemned on the day of the Lord. Gavin also quotes from a letter, saying that an anathema is a separation from God. He takes these as showing that an anathema isn't just a separation from the church, but is necessarily a separation from God. Presumably, that means, that being the subject of an anathema will, by itself, cause you to go to hell. However, the quotations he offers don't show this.

In this period, an anathema did separate you from communion with the church, so it did involve an excommunication. And that was a serious thing, because it meant that you no longer had access to the sacraments. So for example, if you committed a mortal sin, you wouldn't be able to go to confession until you had repented and had the anathema lifted. So you ran the risk of dying in a state of mortal sin. But it wasn't the anathema itself that caused you to go to hell, and the quotations Gavin gives don't show that.

When Tarasios says that an anathema drives you away from God, that's true. By being expelled from the church, you are driven away from God. When Tarasios says, that it cuts you off from the kingdom of God. Well, that's true. The church is the kingdom of God, and by being cut off from the church, you're cut off from the kingdom of God. By being cut off from the church, you are also driven into the outer darkness outside the church, so Tarasios is right about that too. And he was right, that if he was subject to an anathema and cut off from the church, then Tarasios himself might be found condemned on the last day, if he died in mortal sin, for example.

Furthermore, the letter was right, in saying that an anathema is a separation from God, because it separates you from God's church. All of those things are what anathemas do, understood as excluding you from the communion of the church, and from having access to the grace that flows through the sacraments of the church. However, what an anathema does not do is take you out of a state of grace. And this is something that the people in the time of Second Nicaea did, or should have recognized, because they knew that anathemas can be issued unjustly. It's often claimed, that after the first Council of Nicaea, the great Trinitarian defender, Athanasius was excommunicated. The actual facts are debatable, but let's just go with the idea he was.

If Athanasius was in a state of grace, prior to the unjust excommunication, then the excommunication would not reach into his soul, and rip out the sanctifying grace it held, causing him to become one of the damned. That's something that is impossible for any human authority to do. Only God can give sanctifying grace, and only mortal sin can cause a soul to lose it. So anathemas do not cause you to become one of the damned. They did separate you from the church,, and thus cause a form of separation from God, since you now lacked access to the sacraments, but they did not reach into your soul, rip out sanctifying grace, and cause you to be damned. If Gavin thinks that they did, he's mistaken.

Now, Gavin might claim that Tarasios believed anathemas did that. If so, it isn't revealed by the quotations Gavin gave, as I've just illustrated. And that interpretation is not a theologically sensible way to read those quotations. But suppose for the sake of argument, that Gavin was correct, and that Tarasios believed that anathemas do reach into your soul and rip out sanctifying grace. If that's what Tarasios or anybody else believed, then they were simply wrong. No church body has the power to do that, and no theologically coherent understandings of anathema would take them that way. An anathema excluded you from communion with the church, and thus, put a kind of barrier between you and God, since you no longer had access to the sacraments, but it did not cause a saved person to become a damned person.


So, again. If you are -already- separated from the church by your own choice, because you don't want to be a member of the church, why does this matter?

If you want to be a member of the church, but you think it's prohibits you - it does not - go talk to a priest.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
So that is part of my concern as I try to learn more regarding church history. It won't always be black and white. Perhaps the big themes will consistently play out, but how do I know what sources I am reading are true versus man's mistaken interjection?

You can apply this to a lot of history. Even today, the origins and blame on which to assign WW1 is still debated. So there are historians who cannot come to an agreement even about something as elementary as that which happened only 100 years ago.
Zobel
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AG
Yes. Which is why being a Christian is not (strictly) a matter of history. I think historical inquiry can give information about things, and can for sure disprove or prove certain facts.

But at some point trust and submission comes into play.

However… there are bad and good ways to read the Bible, and the fathers, and to do history. So also should guard for that too. Quote mining the fathers is often just fun and games with selection bias.
Martin Q. Blank
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I guess britannica and all the scholars that have studied this issue did history wrong. Remember, iconophiles won and wrote the history.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Iconoclastic-Controversy

In the early church, the making and veneration of portraits of Christ and the saints were consistently opposed
Zobel
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AG
Which means it was being practiced.

Iconography and the veneration of them is universal in Christian history. The Miaphysite churches have the same practices and they separated in 451 AD.
Zobel
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AG
Here are some early church extracts relating to it.

https://ancientinsights.wordpress.com/2022/03/03/icon-veneration-a-florilegium/

And a video specifically responding to Gavin Ortlund. At the 45 min mark he gets into evidence for early veneration.



In the end, this is a theological issue and that is the explanation and defense of the practice.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

Which means it was being practiced.

Iconography and the veneration of them is universal in Christian history. The Miaphysite churches have the same practices and they separated in 451 AD.
Icons were limited in the early church. Veneration was absolutely opposed. If and when it was addressed, it was viewed as a pagan practice that had no place in the church.
Zobel
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AG
You are entitled to your opinion. You seem to be making the argument from silence. Your assertions don't match the facts I have provided, and further the witness of the church which says the practice is apostolic. This was affirmed both at Nicaea II and after, East and west.

If this is what separates you from the Orthodox faith, I suggest talking to a priest about it. If this is not what separates you from the faith, it hardly seems relevant.

Good luck to you.

Also I'll note Britannica is neutral on the divinity of Christ and His resurrection. It isn't a reliable arbiter of the faith.
TSJ
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AG
Iconography and veneration are continued practices of Christianity.



AgLiving06
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That people hold Nicaea 2 as an ecumenical council is really a disservice to the other 6.

It's more of a political council built on incorrect information.

One of the only things it got right is that the true rigid iconoclasts were wrong about images, but beyond that, it's a "wink and nod" council that we just tolerate.
dermdoc
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

That people hold Nicaea 2 as an ecumenical council is really a disservice to the other 6.

It's more of a political council built on incorrect information.

One of the only things it got right is that the true rigid iconoclasts were wrong about images, but beyond that, it's a "wink and nod" council that we just tolerate.
Agree. I am sure you understand what the op is trying to do.

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AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

That people hold Nicaea 2 as an ecumenical council is really a disservice to the other 6.

It's more of a political council built on incorrect information.

One of the only things it got right is that the true rigid iconoclasts were wrong about images, but beyond that, it's a "wink and nod" council that we just tolerate.
Agree. I am sure you understand what the op is trying to do.



I do, but I don't necessarily see it as a negative per se.

One thing I see missing from many evangelicals/Protestants is a lack of understanding of the history of Christianity.

So while I see what the OP was doing, I do like that more people are digging into history and see why it's wrong to put our faith and trust in things outside of God.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

So that is part of my concern as I try to learn more regarding church history. It won't always be black and white. Perhaps the big themes will consistently play out, but how do I know what sources I am reading are true versus man's mistaken interjection?

You can apply this to a lot of history. Even today, the origins and blame on which to assign WW1 is still debated. So there are historians who cannot come to an agreement even about something as elementary as that which happened only 100 years ago.


I'll say again that this is why Jesus didn't leave a Bible. He didn't leave a document for the "victors" to interpret. He left a church to guide the faithful. One of the methods the church used to lead the faithful were letters written by the apostles. But the letters were not the church. The church did not come from the Bible. The Bible came from the church to help protect it. And, similar to how the Bible was inspired by God as to be inerrant, the church is inspired by God to be inerrant WHEN IT TEACHES FAITH AND MORALS. Similar to the way the Bible doesn't tell us how gravity works, neither does the church. She can be wrong on issues that are not faith and morals, but she is protected where it matters most.

Also, like the Bible, the church can be misinterpreted, which is what I think the issue in the OP is. It's not that the church is wrong, it's the interpretation that is, and I'll address that in another post.

The best analogy I can think of right now is our country. The founders did not leave a constitution and say "read this". They left us a country. The US was a country prior to the constitution. The constitution was the written guide on how the country should operate. They did their best to write it all down, but they were arguing about the meaning of it while doing the writing. Side writings from the founders were being published within a few years of the constitution trying to further explain what the constitution meant. This always has been and always will be an issue with the written word. So again, the writing itself is not the USA. The writing came from the USA. And only the USA gets to decide what is constitutional and what is not. Canada doesn't get a say. Mexico doesn't. Only the USA.

Whats the difference? The USA is not divinely inspired and as such is very fallible and will one day fail like every other nation before it. But the church is divinely inspired. We know this because Jesus Himself founded it and the Holy Spirit descended upon it. What is more inspired than that?

So the fear of wondering "who got it right" is a fear on human interpretation of texts. When you reframe it to see that the church is the divinely inspired source that promulgated the divinely inspired writings, then you just have to stay in the church. The same church that successfully fended off, through the Holy Spirit's guidance, some very nasty heresies, many of which were widely accepted by the laity. I think we all say "the church isn't the building, but the people in those buildings". The apostles were the people. They were the church. And they wrote inerrant. The inerrancy is with the church and the Bible.
The Banned
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Martin Q. Blank said:

The things which we have decreed, being thus well supported, it is confessedly and beyond all question acceptable and well-pleasing before God, that the images of our Lord Jesus Christ as man, and those of the undefiled Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, and of the honourable Angels and of all Saints, should be venerated and saluted. And if anyone does not so believe, but undertakes to debate the matter further and is evil affected with regard to the veneration due the sacred images, such an one our holy ecumenical council (fortified by the inward working of the Spirit of God, and by the traditions of the Fathers and of the Church) anathematises. Now anathema is nothing less than complete separation from God.

Let them who do not venerate the holy and venerable images be anathema!

Anathema to those who blaspheme against the honourable and venerable images!

To those who do not diligently teach all the Christ-loving people to venerate and salute the venerable and sacred and honourable images of all the Saints who pleased God in their several generations, anathema!

To those who have a doubtful mind and do not confess with their whole hearts that they venerate the sacred images, anathema!


Every insurance policy you have ever purchased has a "definitions" section. This is important because, should there ever be a dispute, these definitions aid (although not perfectly) the court to figure out what the document must have meant. The council of Nicea 2 did this, and sorry, but it's a long one:

There is a great distinction between idols and images ( twn eidwlwn kai twn eikonwn ). For idols are the figments and inventions of men, as the Apostle testifies when he says (1 Cor.

554

viii. 4), "We know that an idol is nothing in the world." But an image is a representation of a true thing having a real existence in the world. Thus, for example, the image of our Saviour Jesus Christ and of the holy Virgin Mary, and of all the Saints. Moreover, the Pagans venerated their idols as gods, and offered to them sacrifices, esteeming the gold and silver to be God, as did Nebuchadnezzar.

But when we honour and venerate the images, we in no way venerate the colours or the wood of which they are made; but we glorify with the veneration of dulia ( douleias ), those holy beings of which these are the images, making them by this means present to our minds as if we could see them with our eyes. For this reason we venerate the image of the crucifixion, and place before our minds Christ hung upon the cross for our salvation, and to such like we bow the head, and bend the knee with thanksgiving. Likewise we venerate the image of the Virgin Mary, we lift up our mind to her the most holy Mother of God, bowing both head and knees before her; calling her blessed above all men and women, with the Archangel Gabriel. The veneration, moreover, of the holy images as received in the orthodox Church, in no respect transgresses this commandment.

But this is not one and the same with that we offer to God; nor do the orthodox give it to the art of the painting, but to those very Saints whom the images represent. The Cherubim which overshadowed the mercy-seat, representing the true Cherubim which stand before God in heaven, the Israelites revered and honoured without any violation of the commandment of God, and likewise the children of Israel revered the tabernacle of witness with a suitable honour (II. Sam. vi. 13), and yet in no respect sinned nor set at naught this precept, but rather the more glorified God. From these considerations it is evident that when we honour the holy images, we do not transgress the commandment of the decalogue, but we most especially praise God, who is "to be admired in his Saints" (Ps. lxviii. 35). But this only we should be careful of, that every image has a label, telling of what Saint it is, that thus the intention of him who venerates it may be the more easily fulfilled.

And for the greater establishment of the veneration of the holy images, the Church of God at the Seventh Ecumenical Synod anathematized all those who made war against the images, and set forth the veneration of the august images, and established it forever, as is evident from the ninth canon of that synod.

(Ibid. Quaestio LVI.)

Why was he praised in the Old Testament who broke down the brazen serpent (II. Kgs. xviii. 4) which long before Moses had set up on high? Answer: Because the Jews were beginning an apostasy from the veneration of the true God, venerating that serpent as the true God; and offering to it incense as the Scripture saith. Therefore wishing to cut off this evil, lest it might spread further, he broke up that serpent in order that the Israelites might have no longer that incentive to idolatry. But before they honoured the serpent with the veneration of adoration, no one was condemned in that respect nor was the serpent broken.

But Christians in no respect honour images as gods, neither in their veneration do they take anything from the true adoration due to God. Nay, rather they are led by the hand, as it were, by the image to God, while under their visible representations they honour the Saints with the veneration of dulia ( doulikws ) as the friends of God; asking for their mediation ( mesiteuousin ) to the Lord. And if perchance some have strayed, from their lack of knowledge, in their veneration, it were better to teach such an one, rather than that the veneration of the august images should be banished from the Church.


So, if you read through all of that, truly understand it, pray on it and still decide that veneration is evil and is idol worship, then you don't believe the church and have departed from it. If you have departed from it, you are anathema. But anathema to what? An evil church? Wouldn't you want to be anathema to them?

Last thing: the church here (and in other places in the Nicea 2 documents) clearly express what idol worship is, what veneration of images is, and clearly states they are different. To say the church doesn't actually believe this is to call them liars. On the other hand, if you say what the church teaches is doctrinally sound but the PRACTICE of some of the faithful makes it wrong, re-read the last line of the quoted passage.

I appreciate your post on this. It incentivized me to learn something in more depth
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

You are entitled to your opinion. You seem to be making the argument from silence. Your assertions don't match the facts I have provided, and further the witness of the church which says the practice is apostolic. This was affirmed both at Nicaea II and after, East and west.

If this is what separates you from the Orthodox faith, I suggest talking to a priest about it. If this is not what separates you from the faith, it hardly seems relevant.

Good luck to you.

Also I'll note Britannica is neutral on the divinity of Christ and His resurrection. It isn't a reliable arbiter of the faith.
Britannica writing on the historicity of icon veneration in the early church is a little different than the hypostatic union or the resurrection. They are simply summarizing the vast majority of scholarship on the issue which is that the early church opposed it and it didn't start gaining acceptance until the 6th or 7th centuries, particularly in the eastern churches. Whether your church requires you to turn a blind eye to that research and take it upon faith that it was an apostolic practice is obviously up to you.
Zobel
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AG
I would ask you to present this "vast majority" of scholarship but this isn't exactly a good-faith discussion at this point.

Whether your church requires you to follow the vast majority of scholarship is also obviously up to you - which draws into the discussion everything from the historicity of the Exodus to the virgin birth, the doctrine of the Trinity, and the deity of Christ.

But again - you haven't answered this question. Is this what separates you from the faith of the Orthodox? If not, why are you asking these questions?
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

The Cherubim which overshadowed the mercy-seat, representing the true Cherubim which stand before God in heaven, the Israelites revered and honoured without any violation of the commandment of God, and likewise the children of Israel revered the tabernacle of witness with a suitable honour (II. Sam. vi. 13), and yet in no respect sinned nor set at naught this precept, but rather the more glorified God.
Is this from Nicaea II? The Israelites did not pray, kiss, or prostrate before the Cherubim. Or any of the items in the temple. The proof text is weird.

2 Sam. 6:13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the Lord had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

I would ask you to present this "vast majority" of scholarship but this isn't exactly a good-faith discussion at this point.

Whether your church requires you to follow the vast majority of scholarship is also obviously up to you - which draws into the discussion everything from the historicity of the Exodus to the virgin birth, the doctrine of the Trinity, and the deity of Christ.
I'll try if I have the time, but I assume Britannica already did. They didn't make it up out of thin air. And again, them summarizing the historicity of early church practice is different than miraculous events recorded in the holy scriptures.
Quote:

But again - you haven't answered this question. Is this what separates you from the faith of the Orthodox? If not, why are you asking these questions?

What questions? The only question I'm aware of that I have asked is in the subject line of the OP. Which it seems the answer is 'yes, we repronounce the anathemas every lent season, but we don't care if this is truly keeping you from the orthodox church.'

The rest is a discussion of if icon veneration was accepted in the early church. You may not think I'm in the church of Nicaea II because I don't accept it, but I certainly am of the early church, right?
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

I'll try if I have the time, but I assume Britannica already did. They didn't make it up out of thin air. And again, them summarizing the historicity of early church practice is different than miraculous events recording the holy scriptures.
Why is it different? Are they using different methods to evaluate one claim versus the other? Why is their consensus on the apostolic teaching of the trinity not relevant but on the apostolic practice of iconography relevant?


Quote:

What questions? The only question I'm aware of that I have asked is in the subject line of the OP. Which it seems the answer is 'yes, we repronounce the anathemas every lent season, but we don't care if this is truly keeping you from the orthodox church.'
Nobody said we didn't care if it is keeping you from the church, I said nobody will care if you do not reverence icons. Whether or not it is keeping you from the church is the question you have carefully avoided.


Quote:

You may not think I'm in the church of Nicaea II because I don't accept it, but I certainly am of the early church, right?
No, because those are the same church.
Martin Q. Blank
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I'm not familiar with orthodox semantics regarding church, etc.

In your eyes, am I a Christian, but in a schismatic church? Or am I not a Christian at all?
Zobel
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AG
I'm not familiar with methodist semantics regarding Christian, etc.

Why do you not answer whether this is actually a barrier for you with regard to the faith?
Martin Q. Blank
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Obviously it's a barrier. I think icon veneration is dangerous as the church fathers taught. Nicaea II should be rejected.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:


Quote:

I'll try if I have the time, but I assume Britannica already did. They didn't make it up out of thin air. And again, them summarizing the historicity of early church practice is different than miraculous events recording the holy scriptures.
Why is it different? Are they using different methods to evaluate one claim versus the other? Why is their consensus on the apostolic teaching of the trinity not relevant but on the apostolic practice of iconography relevant?
You're comparing scholarly consensus on the historicity of the apostolic teaching of the Trinity, the virgin birth, and the exodus? Or the historicity of the things themselves? I thought it was the latter.
Zobel
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AG
is it the only barrier?
Martin Q. Blank
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No, there are others. Why? Are you wanting me to convert? Why would I subject myself to these anathemas?
Zobel
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AG
If course I want you to convert. I want everyone to be in communion with me, I sincerely hope and pray that happens, and I hope that what I write on here is productive to that end.

If there are other barriers, those are probably more material.

I'm glad you've come around that the anathemas don't affect you right now. The next step is that they also do not bar you from coming into the church.
AgLiving06
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Respectfully disagree with this.

Quote:

I'll say again that this is why Jesus didn't leave a Bible. He didn't leave a document for the "victors" to interpret. He left a church to guide the faithful. One of the methods the church used to lead the faithful were letters written by the apostles. But the letters were not the church. The church did not come from the Bible. The Bible came from the church to help protect it. And, similar to how the Bible was inspired by God as to be inerrant, the church is inspired by God to be inerrant WHEN IT TEACHES FAITH AND MORALS. Similar to the way the Bible doesn't tell us how gravity works, neither does the church. She can be wrong on issues that are not faith and morals, but she is protected where it matters most.

You make the same mistake you accuse Protestants of.

Jesus didn't establish a formal Church or Church structure either. Rome specifically makes these incorrect leap to justify Peter as the Supreme authority, but we have no actual indications this is true. Scriptures provide the opposite of this.

But further, The argument that Jesus didn't leave the Scriptures is wrong. Because what are the Scriptures other than the Word of God written down, and that preceeded any claims of a NT church (Rome, EO, Protestants, other).

First, we obviously have the OT Scriptures. God was comfortable with a fallible group of people maintaining His Word. An infallible church was not necessary.

Further, Jesus quoted these Scriptures and expected that the Jews knew it too. There was no concern expressed with the written Word expressing the Word of God.

Second, The New Testament existed before it was written down. That the medium changed from word of mout to written Scripture is irrelevant. It wasn't created by the church. The church recorded what it received, just as occurred with the OT. There's a reason we have more copies of the Scriptures than any other book. The church saw fit to protect the Word of God and went to great lengths

Third, when you start to justify why a supposed infallible entity is now fallible, you give away the game. It's a completely arbitrary and vague standard that Rome created to shield itself from all its flaws. Rome won't even officially say how many infallible statements there are. Rome itself disagrees on the topic.

Rome's claims to be the Church Jesus established don't hold. They are simply the Roman Catholic Church, a group established (really at the Council of Trent) that exist and proclaim things that we are all free to ignore.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

If course I want you to convert. I want everyone to be in communion with me, I sincerely hope and pray that happens, and I hope that what I write on here is productive to that end.

If there are other barriers, those are probably more material.

I'm glad you've come around that the anathemas don't affect you right now. The next step is that they also do not bar you from coming into the church.
Oh right, because I'm not a Christian. Or not a member of "the" church.

btw...are Roman Catholics outside the church?
Zobel
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AG
I'm saying that if we defer to scholarly consensus, you have everything that comes with it. It is a different way of looking at the world, based on at best empirical evidence, and often worse than that subject to all kinds of bias because the approach itself is a modernist one. Scholarly consensus has in the past said that the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the virgin birth were not apostolic teaching. Scholarly consensus would say the Exodus never happened, and that Moses did not write the OT.

At any rate, I think arguing over whether Britannica is a good summary of scholarly consensus or not, or what that scholarly consensus is is beside the point. There simply isn't much evidence available on this topic, and it seems to me that how you interpret the evidence is basically a function of your biases coming into the discussion.

My prior on topics like this is based on every time I've looked into something where consensus or whatever has said the church is wrong about matters of history, the church view has proven out...from whether or not King David was a real person to St Thomas traveling to India to the age of the scriptures, whatever. So there's a lot of goodwill built up for me on this, and the evidence seems to be somewhere between silent on the topic to strongly supporting the historicity both of the presence of images and the use of images. I think it's also important that the consensus on presence of images has changed over the past 100 years as we get more archaeological evidence.
Zobel
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AG
This is why I said you're trolling, but that's ok. I don't mind you wasting my time.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

I'm saying that if we defer to scholarly consensus, you have everything that comes with it. It is a different way of looking at the world, based on at best empirical evidence, and often worse than that subject to all kinds of bias because the approach itself is a modernist one. Scholarly consensus has in the past said that the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the virgin birth were not apostolic teaching. Scholarly consensus would say the Exodus never happened, and that Moses did not write the OT.

At any rate, I think arguing over whether Britannica is a good summary of scholarly consensus or not, or what that scholarly consensus is is beside the point. There simply isn't much evidence available on this topic, and it seems to me that how you interpret the evidence is basically a function of your biases coming into the discussion.

My prior on topics like this is based on every time I've looked into something where consensus or whatever has said the church is wrong about matters of history, the church view has proven out...from whether or not King David was a real person to St Thomas traveling to India to the age of the scriptures, whatever. So there's a lot of goodwill built up for me on this, and the evidence seems to be somewhere between silent on the topic to strongly supporting the historicity both of the presence of images and the use of images. I think it's also important that the consensus on presence of images has changed over the past 100 years as we get more archaeological evidence.
Ok, so I shouldn't waste my time. I started working through the bibliography of this wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm

I began with Brubaker, L.; Haldon, J. (2011). Byzantium in the Iconoclast Era and got the below, but I'll stop if you're just going to dismiss each one since accepting the edicts of Nicaea II is a matter of faith.


Zobel
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AG
Oh no, by all means continue.

I think this is an important type of discussion to have. I think to address this we need to understand a couple of things.

One, what does veneration mean?

Two, what qualifies something as an icon?

And most importantly, how do we avoid an absence of evidence appeal to the argument from silence?
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