dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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You wouldn't be able to love God unless he first gave you a new heart. I'm glad he did.

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Do you believe God loves all men? And that He desires all to be saved? Or do the Scriptures clearly stating He desires to save all mankind not matter?

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He is not capable of giving you a legitimate answer because it exposes his flawed theology and he can't bring himself to say it out loud.

He is going to give you empty clichs and offer you nothing of substance.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I linked Sproul's commentary on this weeks ago.

Here is some from Piper.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

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Cool. What do YOU believe? And what does Scripture clearly say?

Can you not disagree with Reformed theologians if they are clearly wrong?

10andBOUNCE said:

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I linked Sproul's commentary on this weeks ago.

Here is some from Piper.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

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You sort of dodged the question there. He asked you a pretty straightforward question.

Articulate it or defend it yourself. Can you?

10andBOUNCE said:

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I linked Sproul's commentary on this weeks ago.

Here is some from Piper.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

---

Not to mention that dude gives me the serious heebie-jeebies.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Ephesians 2:1-5

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved

We were DEAD - not drowning or dying. Dead.

Have you ever seen a dead person make themselves come back to life?

Verse 4 shows the God centered initiative as he "made us alive"

That's all that picture I described is from.

The picture of someone drowning just isn't Biblical at all.

---

What happens to the ones your God does not bring back to life? And why did God create them?

It seems one big piece of God's character, or perhaps an office, that is missing in this discussion is that of Judge. People are eager to talk about His love but not His judgement. He would not be a wholly perfect God if He did not carry out judgement.

In the analogies given, what's missing is why/how these people find themselves drowning or dead. God didn't drown them, we drowned ourselves. Every one of us deserves to remain dead at the bottom of the ocean, it's through His mercy that any of us are saved. It may seem unfair but it's really not. It's why I thank the Lord every day for my salvation; I know I don't deserve it.

I know it can sound evil; I do genuinely acknowledge this sentiment. But it's not God who put us at the bottom of the ocean and judgement is necessary.

As for the importance of the gospel, it's the means in which the Lord has chosen to save people. He could surely just snap His fingers and we magically be saved, but He has chosen to use His gospel and us as the means by which people are brought to salvation. God does not need us to bring about His will but He has chosen to use us to do so. He is pleased to use us as His means to bring about His providence. This is why the gospel. This is why we tell others.

Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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It seems one big piece of God's character, or perhaps an office, that is missing in this discussion is that of Judge. People are eager to talk about His love but not His judgement. He would not be a wholly perfect God if He did not carry out judgement.

In the analogies given, what's missing is why/how these people find themselves drowning or dead. God didn't drown them, we drowned ourselves. Every one of us deserves to remain dead at the bottom of the ocean, it's through His mercy that any of us are saved. It may seem unfair but it's really not. It's why I thank the Lord every day for my salvation; I know I don't deserve it.

I know it can sound evil; I do genuinely acknowledge this sentiment. But it's not God who put us at the bottom of the ocean and judgement is necessary.

As for the importance of the gospel, it's the means in which the Lord has chosen to save people. He could surely just snap His fingers and we magically be saved, but He has chosen to use His gospel and us as the means by which people are brought to salvation. God does not need us to bring about His will but He has chosen to use us to do so. He is pleased to use us as His means to bring about His providence. This is why the gospel. This is why we tell others.

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Didn't God create us? So He created us dead in our sins and then picks and chooses who gets heaven and who gets hell?

That does not sound just to me, it sounds evil.

Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

Very well stated. If God does not offer His grace to all, He is evil. And God is not evil.

Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

Very well stated. If God does not offer His grace to all, He is evil. And God is not evil.

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Aren't you a universalist? I'm afraid we are starting at very different points if this is the case. We can't even begin to talk about some of the things in this thread if we don't agree that not all will be saved.

Unless you believe every person will be saved, no matter what you believe in the how or why, at the end of time, some will perish. God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

Even if you believe it's our own "free will" to repent or reject, at the end of the day God is still allowing people to perish. He could find a way to save them if that was His chief desire, but He does not. So why doesn't that make Him evil?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Ephesians 2:1-5

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved

We were DEAD - not drowning or dying. Dead.

Have you ever seen a dead person make themselves come back to life?

Verse 4 shows the God centered initiative as he "made us alive"

That's all that picture I described is from.

The picture of someone drowning just isn't Biblical at all.

---

What happens to the ones your God does not bring back to life? And why did God create them?

---

To bring about his glory.

How would you answer the question of if God desires and wants all to be saved, why doesn't he just make it so? God ultimately doesn't get what he wants in this scenario. Doesn't seem very sovereign.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

---

I understand very well the Reformed doctrine. You can dance around it, but at the end of the day the obvious conclusion is double predestination. Which means your theology says God preordains some people to eternal torment hell.

And that theology, in my opinion, makes God an evil monster.

The link provided to John Piper's thoughts on Scripture clearly stating God desires all men to be saved is as fine a display of tap dancing around these very clear Scriptural thoughts is an example of this.

"Well, you just don't understand the true doctrines of Reformed theology". If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that I would be rich.

We are not stupid. We understand exactly what Reformed theology is saying and reject it on Scripture and church tradition.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

Very well stated. If God does not offer His grace to all, He is evil. And God is not evil.

---

If we are all sinners deserving damnation, it is just for all of us to be judged appropriately.

It is only merciful when God saves us.

So we either receive a just punishment or merciful and gracious salvation.

No evil in that equation.

Quote:

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It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

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No, it isn't. People can disagree without misunderstanding.

Quote:

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It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

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This is just playing games with "will" and "desire", and doing it at an elementary level at that. The philosophical undertaking of the will, the end or telos of a being (which is what it properly wills), and the act of deliberation or desire (the gnomic will) was hammered out in Christian theology six plus centuries before the Reformation.

Even further, the idea of "regeneration" is fast and loose. When are people regenerated? We see righteous repentance before the Incarnation.

Again, this comes back to Christology and the Incarnation. The capacity to will is part of the human nature. Christ Jesus, the logos and second person of the Trinity, became human - meaning He added to His divine nature all of the powers and capacities of being human. Which means everything we are, or as St Paul says, like us in every way excepting only sin. That means He had a human will.

St Gregory the Theologian wrote "For that which He [Christ] has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole." He says that our being in the image of God is the rationality in our creation, that "He endowed [us] with breath from Himself, which is the intelligent soul" and gave Adam "law as material upon which to exercise his free will." To save us, "He came to His own image, put on flesh for the sake of flesh, mingled Himself with a rational soul on account of my soul, purifying like with like, and in all things except sin He became man." He continues "He who Is becomes, the Uncreated is created, and the Unlimited is limited by means of a rational soul which mediates between the divinity and the grossness of the flesh." (Oration 45, On Pascha). Even the unregenerated man has a rational soul, else he is no longer in the image of God.

St Cyril of Jerusalem explains how this plays out - "Our nature admits of salvation, but the will is also required". "Know also that you have a soul self-governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator: immortal because of God that gives it immortality; a living being, rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it wills. For it is not according to your nativity that you sin" and "we now sin of our free-will" and clearly "The soul is self-governed: and though the devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to you the thought of fornication: if you will, you accept it; if you will not, you reject. For if you were a fornicator by necessity, then for what cause did God prepare hell? If you were a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory?"

St Gregory of Nyssa in his Great Catechism teaches "or He who holds sovereignty over the universe permitted something to be subject to our own control, over which each of us alone is master. Now this is the will: a thing that cannot be enslaved, being the power of self-determination." (Great Catechism 47, 77A).

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

---

I understand very well the Reformed doctrine. You can dance around it, but at the end of the day the obvious conclusion is double predestination. Which means your theology says God preordains some people to eternal torment hell.

And that theology, in my opinion, makes God an evil monster.

The link provided to John Piper's thoughts on Scripture clearly stating God desires all men to be saved is as fine a display of tap dancing around these very clear Scriptural thoughts is an example of this.

"Well, you just don't understand the true doctrines of Reformed theology". If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that I would be rich.

We are not stupid. We understand exactly what Reformed theology is saying and reject it on Scripture and church tradition.

---

But can I not say the very same thing regarding "free will"? God knew who would choose Him and who would not, correct? So why did He create those He knew would not choose Him? Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

I'm sorry you felt I was implying you were stupid. I only say it's a misunderstanding because I once didn't understand it myself. And when I hear people use certain terminology or phrases it makes me feel as if there is a misunderstanding.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Ephesians 2:1-5

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved

We were DEAD - not drowning or dying. Dead.

Have you ever seen a dead person make themselves come back to life?

Verse 4 shows the God centered initiative as he "made us alive"

That's all that picture I described is from.

The picture of someone drowning just isn't Biblical at all.

---

What happens to the ones your God does not bring back to life? And why did God create them?

---

To bring about his glory.

How would you answer the question of if God desires and wants all to be saved, why doesn't he just make it so? God ultimately doesn't get what he wants in this scenario. Doesn't seem very sovereign.

---

God can be sovereign and still give man free will. That explains that Scripture perfectly.

And being sovereign does not equate to doing evil by preordaining creatures you created to eternal torment.

I would be okay if your theology advocated annihilationism instead of eternal torment. God created us and he can destroy us. But preordains people you created to eternal torture makes God evil. And He is not. And how does torturing eternally someone you created who had no chance to avoid that fate five God glory? Frankly, that to me is a sick thought.

And making us alive with Christ together sounds synergistic to me.

I still want to know why the Gospel is necessary is all of it is predestined. Why do we need to hear if it has already been decided?

I feel like I am dealing with a cult. I have given numerous Scriptures and I believe rational thoughts and it is like I am talking to a wall.

CrackerJackAg said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I linked Sproul's commentary on this weeks ago.

Here is some from Piper.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

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Not to mention that dude gives me the serious heebie-jeebies.

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You're just all about the feels I see

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Ephesians 2:1-5

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved

We were DEAD - not drowning or dying. Dead.

Have you ever seen a dead person make themselves come back to life?

Verse 4 shows the God centered initiative as he "made us alive"

That's all that picture I described is from.

The picture of someone drowning just isn't Biblical at all.

---

What happens to the ones your God does not bring back to life? And why did God create them?

---

To bring about his glory.

How would you answer the question of if God desires and wants all to be saved, why doesn't he just make it so? God ultimately doesn't get what he wants in this scenario. Doesn't seem very sovereign.

---

God can be sovereign and still give man free will. That explains that Scripture perfectly.

And being sovereign does not equate to doing evil by preordaining creatures you created to eternal torment.

I would be okay if your theology advocated annihilationism instead of eternal torment. God created us and he can destroy us. But preordains people you created to eternal torture makes God evil. And He is not. And how does torturing eternally someone you created who had no chance to avoid that fate five God glory? Frankly, that to me is a sick thought.

And making us alive with Christ together sounds synergistic to me.

I still want to know why the Gospel is necessary is all of it is predestined. Why do we need to hear if it has already been decided?

I feel like I am dealing with a cult. I have given numerous Scriptures and I believe rational thoughts and it is like I am talking to a wall.

---

I answered your question regarding the gospel.

Scrolling up on page two here, seems that I am the only one to provide, cite, and attempt to explain scripture.

I see nothing else.

Quote:

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Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

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You don't think allowing someone to perish is materially different than choosing it for them?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Zobel said:

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Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

---

I understand very well the Reformed doctrine. You can dance around it, but at the end of the day the obvious conclusion is double predestination. Which means your theology says God preordains some people to eternal torment hell.

And that theology, in my opinion, makes God an evil monster.

The link provided to John Piper's thoughts on Scripture clearly stating God desires all men to be saved is as fine a display of tap dancing around these very clear Scriptural thoughts is an example of this.

"Well, you just don't understand the true doctrines of Reformed theology". If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that I would be rich.

We are not stupid. We understand exactly what Reformed theology is saying and reject it on Scripture and church tradition.

---

But can I not say the very same thing regarding "free will"? God knew who would choose Him and who would not, correct? So why did He create those He knew would not choose Him? Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

I'm sorry you felt I was implying you were stupid. I only say it's a misunderstanding because I once didn't understand it myself. And when I hear people use certain terminology or phrases it makes me feel as if there is a misunderstanding.

---

What am I misunderstanding? Reformed theology states that there is unconditional election AND limited atonement. So it is all in God's hands.

And I could understand that. I can understand God annihilating people he created. Or as you said to perish.

I can not understand God creating people who He has preordained to eternal torture.

Could He do it? Sure. Would that make Him evil? I say yes. And I know He is not so I reject Reformed theology.

Read what St Paul says to the Aeropagus: "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." He also says that God accepts men "who fear him and do what is right." St Paul tells St Timothy that God our Savior wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". St Peter writes that God does not will any to perish.

If we don't have free will to reject or accept or reject, to seek or reach out or find, or to fear and do what is right, these scriptures are nonsense.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Scrolling up on page two here, seems that I am the only one to provide, cite, and attempt to explain scripture.

I see nothing else.

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Dude, you know that I have done it countless times in other threads and you either ignore it or make a joke about it.

Much like Piper, you do not address clear Scriptural rebuttal of your theology.

So how do you explain the picture of someone dead all the sudden becoming alive on their own strength?

St. Paul is a wonderful example

Zobel said:

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Read what St Paul says to the Aeropagus: "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." He also says that God accepts men "who fear him and do what is right." St Paul tells St Timothy that God our Savior wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". St Peter writes that God does not will any to perish.

If we don't have free will to reject or accept or reject, to seek or reach out or find, or to fear and do what is right, these scriptures are nonsense.

---

Guess those Scriptures do not matter. And if Reformed/Calvinist theology is correct, why is hearing the Gospel necessary?

It is very frustrating. So I am going to read Scripture, meditate on it, and pray. We are not changing any minds here. Even with clear Scriptural evidence.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

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You don't think allowing someone to perish is materially different than choosing it for them?

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You're making the assumption people believe God chose eternal torment for some people. Again, God didn't put us there, we put ourselves. Through His mercy, He pulled some out.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

---

You don't think allowing someone to perish is materially different than choosing it for them?

---

You're making the assumption people believe God chose eternal torment for some people. Again, God didn't put us there, we put ourselves. Through His mercy, He pulled some out.

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In your theology, who created hell?

Yes, a reformed and universalist walk into a bar….

Far different ends of the spectrum

The entire metaphor St Paul makes about being dead in trespasses is badly abused by reformed theology. If we want to take it to your extreme - that dead can't do anything under their own strength - than neither do they sin, and according to St Paul they are not subject to the Torah. Are the unregenerate not subject to the Torah? Are all sinners not under the authority of the Torah? Obviously this is not correct; obviously therefore there is not a literal sense of death here.

St Paul speaking of being dead in our sins is spiritual death. Much like Adam sinned, and died, we all die because of sin. But again, just like Adam did not immediately die, we are not literally dead in our sins.

Adam died because he died spiritually to sin, being cut off from Life. As it says literally, dying he died. His death began immediately upon separation from Life, and so he died. And all died because of that separation. While we were in that spiritual death, cut off from God, cut off from the blessings and promises of Life, Christ died for us - by grace we have been saved - and that was not because of anything we did. Yet that by itself does not save all, because otherwise all are truly saved and there will be no goats. That is not the picture we get in the scriptures.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Zobel said:

---

Can't have it both ways. If people are free, they are of course free to sin and bear the consequences of their sin. But they are also free to repent and enjoy the mercy and love of God.

If people are not free, then they are not free to sin or repent. Their sin or repentance is not their choice, or a consequence of their own actions. In which case, God did "drown them".

Being deserving of salvation is not the same thing as having the ability to do it apart from God. Free will does not preclude God's mercy.

And likewise, God's mercy is not at odds with His judgment. His judgment is perfectly merciful, and His mercy is perfectly just. Separating them is an error.

---

It's just a misunderstanding of some of the points of the reformed doctrine.

It's a matter of desire. We are always free to repent but we will never desire to do so until we are regenerated. The option is there but the desire is not. Even Adam did not have the desire.

---

I understand very well the Reformed doctrine. You can dance around it, but at the end of the day the obvious conclusion is double predestination. Which means your theology says God preordains some people to eternal torment hell.

And that theology, in my opinion, makes God an evil monster.

The link provided to John Piper's thoughts on Scripture clearly stating God desires all men to be saved is as fine a display of tap dancing around these very clear Scriptural thoughts is an example of this.

"Well, you just don't understand the true doctrines of Reformed theology". If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that I would be rich.

We are not stupid. We understand exactly what Reformed theology is saying and reject it on Scripture and church tradition.

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But can I not say the very same thing regarding "free will"? God knew who would choose Him and who would not, correct? So why did He create those He knew would not choose Him? Again, at the end of the day, either way, God is creating people and allowing them to perish.

I'm sorry you felt I was implying you were stupid. I only say it's a misunderstanding because I once didn't understand it myself. And when I hear people use certain terminology or phrases it makes me feel as if there is a misunderstanding.

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What am I misunderstanding? Reformed theology states that there is unconditional election AND limited atonement. So it is all in God's hands.

And I could understand that. I can understand God annihilating people he created. Or as you said to perish.

I can not understand God creating people who He has preordained to eternal torture.

Could He do it? Sure. Would that make Him evil? I say yes. And I know He is not so I reject Reformed theology.

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I know I've said this before and really it's the crux of why we are talking past one another: it's very difficult to discuss one specific aspect of this theology as it all ties together. We are starting from so many different points and definitions: definition of free will, all will be saved vs not everyone will be saved, it's all in God's hands or it's not, etc.

You seem really frustrated and I feel like I'm causing some of that and I don't want that to be the case. Perhaps our time is better spent trying to share with unbelievers vs working one another up.

So as Michael Scott once said, explain it to me like a 5 year old.

How does Paul obtain salvation without God's regeneration first?

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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Read what St Paul says to the Aeropagus: "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." He also says that God accepts men "who fear him and do what is right." St Paul tells St Timothy that God our Savior wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". St Peter writes that God does not will any to perish.

If we don't have free will to reject or accept or reject, to seek or reach out or find, or to fear and do what is right, these scriptures are nonsense.

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Guess those Scriptures do not matter. And if Reformed/Calvinist theology is correct, why is hearing the Gospel necessary?

It is very frustrating. So I am going to read Scripture, meditate on it, and pray. We are not changing any minds here. Even with clear Scriptural evidence.

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I've answered the gospel question for you on this thread, not too far back.

If people have no free will, then they didn't put themselves anywhere. You can't have it both ways.

If you have no free will, then neither is there consequence for your actions. This has been Christian teaching from the beginning - St Athenagoras wrote "men [have] freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice, for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power."

Again, St Cyril of Jerusalem "The soul is self-governed: and though the devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to you the thought of fornication: if you will, you accept it; if you will not, you reject. For if you were a fornicator by necessity, then for what cause did God prepare hell? If you were a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory?"