dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

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I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

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Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

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We are not good apart from God, but we are never apart from God. We are God's creation, and He always loves us, supports us, and strengthens us no matter what we may think about Him. I can't get behind the doctrine of total depravity, because that would mean that God has abandoned people and withdrawn His grace. But God doesn't do that. Even the most evil person in history could repent and the next minute could be working in cooperation with God's grace to do good deeds and fulfill God's will.

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

I do agree with your last statement about the most evil person potentially ultimately being saved; it's possible, absolutely. Paul comes to mind.

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Wow. We are all God's children. He created every one of us and we all bear His image. He knit every one of us together in the womb,

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

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The saved and the unsaved are all God's children. He loves all of us.

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Ouch. A loving father would send some of his children to eternal damnation to endure his wrath forever? Sounds worse than election and reprobation.

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

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Zobel said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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You said God judges the heart - I agree. And good works can look good on the surface but if the heart isn't in the right place, it's not ultimately good.

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and the only person who can judge the hearts of men is God. we should praise God for good things, and in humility see our own sins and not presume to judge the hearts of our brothers.

All we can say is - "in any nation anyone who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to God."

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Quo Vadis? said:

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On evangelizing and apologetics with Catholics and not with Jews?

I had the misfortune of dialogue with a rabid southern Baptist Pastor of a reformed church in North Carolina this weekend and we got into talking about how the Catholic Church added books, and how Mary is a Pagan Queen, and how the Septuagint was the works of the Antichrist, and that Christ giving the keys to the kingdom had nothing to do with the story of Eliakim in the Old Testament.

Not ascribing this to anyone here but I find that for all of their ability to read scripture they don't actually know anything about their faith other than rote memorization.

Secondly, it seems that they have a HUGE love affair with Judaism but not for apostolic Christianity. We're on the verge of going to hell, while the Jews are the chosen people who God is preparing for a special plan of salvation (but it clearly didn't happen 2000 years ago).

I was told that the masoretic text is more accurate because that's the text that Jews that used. I told him that Christ quoted from the Septuagint 30x as often as the masoretic, and St Augustine confirmed the Septuagint as canon at the Synod of hippo, but he told me those were extra biblical sources. I told him he had to use extra biblical sources to tell him the books the Jews used, and he then showed me a google AI that the Catholic Church invented the Septuagint at the council of Trent. I asked how the OO and EO had the deuterocanon in their bibles, and he said they were also Roman Catholic.

With regard to Mary he showed me a link of pagans using "Queen of Heaven" and argued that Bathsheba was never called a "Queen" even though she was the mother of king Solomon. I showed him the book of Kings where it says Solomon himself bowed to her and had a seat for her at his right hand. I also showed her how her title translated as "queen mother". He then said that she was a harlot and we are all kings in the line of royal priesthood.

In the end we agreed to disagree and talked about other things but I was shocked that this dude had a church and a flock of people who paid to hear his teaching.

What I was most struck by was his argument that the Masoretic text was superior to the Septuagint because "that's what the Jews used". It seems to me that there is a massive preference for Judaism in reformed circles than there is for Catholicism, even when I mentioned that Christian Jews used the Septuagint, he said they were Roman Catholic. He also didn't know that the Catholic Church had eastern churches as well.

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

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I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

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Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

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So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

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If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

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How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

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So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

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It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

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Sure seems like he crushed Paul's will to ravish the church.

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Zobel said:

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any attempt to systematize and temporalize the desires of God are futile.

but again - practical, pastoral, evangelical. we don't know who will be saved. God wants all men to be saved. we should want all men to be saved. we should pray for the salvation of all. what practical, pastoral, or evangelical value is there in focusing on who will not be saved or trying to figure it out? we should look to our own sins, practice obedience, faithfulness, humility, and love. God loves each and every human being more than we can possibly imagine.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

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The saved and the unsaved are all God's children. He loves all of us.

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Ouch. A loving father would send some of his children to eternal damnation to endure his wrath forever? Sounds worse than election and reprobation.

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Quote:

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I'm not judging anyone. If a person's good work is coming from an ultimate desire to please God, then that's wonderful, that's good. If it's not, then it's not ultimately good. Simple as that. Only God can truly know.

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aggiedata said:

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It's about inheritance of God's kingdom. Not all will.

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Quote:

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He shows mercy to whom He chooses to show mercy and it won't be to everyone.

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The Banned said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

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No? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

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Then I guess I misread your post. I thought that's what you were driving at. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

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Zobel said:

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You are arguing that St Paul is wrong. Pretty good rule of thumb is that this means your argument is wrong, and you've misunderstood something.

St Paul says everyone is the offspring of God.

Adoption is about inheritance. being adopted as sons makes you heirs, being joined to the singular heir is how you inherit. the oldest son inherits all. not being adopted into a family does not make you not a human.

Christ shares our nature; He is our brother, because He became a human. God is His Father, He is our brother - anyone who is Human has God for Father. this is one aspect of Him being Savior, through the Incarnation.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

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The saved and the unsaved are all God's children. He loves all of us.

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Ouch. A loving father would send some of his children to eternal damnation to endure his wrath forever? Sounds worse than election and reprobation.

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So who created the people who are not God's children according to you?

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I'm not judging anyone. If a person's good work is coming from an ultimate desire to please God, then that's wonderful, that's good. If it's not, then it's not ultimately good. Simple as that. Only God can truly know.

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the scriptures contradict this. "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

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Zobel said:

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i disagree. ONLY the firstborn inherits, and he then divides the inheritance. that is why it is faithfulness to Christ Jesus as the Heir to all creation is how we inherit.

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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aggiedata said:

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It's about inheritance of God's kingdom. Not all will.

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Children are the ones who receive the inheritance.

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

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Sure seems like he crushed Paul's will to ravish the church.

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Under your view, did all of Paul's future sins occur because God didn't force him to do the good thing instead? If God overrides our will, to make us do good then every future sin happens because He chose not to stop it. Which would mean God wants us to sin, otherwise He would have stopped it. I just can't get on board with this.

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

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So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

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If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

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How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

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So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

---

It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

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I fear I'm losing your (my) point a bit but I'll say that yes, He "left them out intentionally". He shows mercy to whom He chooses to show mercy and it won't be to everyone.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

---

Sure seems like he crushed Paul's will to ravish the church.

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Under your view, did all of Paul's future sins occur because God didn't force him to do the good thing instead? If God overrides our will, to make us do good then every future sin happens because He chose not to stop it. Which would mean God wants us to sin, otherwise He would have stopped it. I just can't get on board with this.

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Paul's future sins occurred because of the battle waging between the flesh and spirit. Upon our regeneration, this battle doesn't go away.

But clearly Paul's desire to ravish the church and God's people instantaneously changed in this miraculous conversion story. Our regeneration is that change that God initiates to supplant our original desires that are not bent toward God.

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

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So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

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If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

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How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

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So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

---

It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

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I fear I'm losing your (my) point a bit but I'll say that yes, He "left them out intentionally". He shows mercy to whom He chooses to show mercy and it won't be to everyone.

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To clarify the point I'm trying to make based on your premise in my first bullet:

- we can't do good unless we first know Jesus
- billions of people have never had the opportunity to do so
- God is all powerful and could have done so
- therefore God did not want to do so and "left them out intentionally"

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

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I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

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It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

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I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

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A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?

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Scripture really doesn't support these claims.

Scripture calls us slaves to sin and children of wrath. Our fallen nature rejects God. We don't choose anything.

God chose us. Any understanding of God we have is because of Him. Any desire to follow is from Him. It is because of him that we can do anything.

We need to get away from this mindset that we have the capacity to choose God. Our salvation is God plan. Our damnation or rejection is our asserting our free will.

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Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

Galatians 6 7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matthew 6:33

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Just a few verses implying we have free will to make choices. And Scripture also says we are created in the image of God.

God bless.

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I guess context doesn't matter?

Romans 10:9 ignores the previous verses.

"5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Which points us back to Romans 2:

"12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Are you to argue that the Gentiles chose to write the law on their own hearts? Of course not.

he ends Romans 2 with this:

'29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

It is the Spirits work that frees us. It's the Spirits work that draws us to God. Not some perceived choice we think we have. We naturally reject God, but God draws us in spite of ourselves.

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How come that does not happen in Muslim countries? Are the elect only in Christian countries?

And I almost did not put Romans 10:9 on there because of the context issue. Thanks for explaining that.

What about the other verses which seem to clearly state we choose?

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Quote:

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- we can't ultimately do good until we are regenerated

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AgLiving06 said:

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The Banned said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

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No? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

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Then I guess I misread your post. I thought that's what you were driving at. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

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No worries. There's not a lot of TULIP that Lutherans agree with, but "Total Depravity" is the one we would.

We "could" find agreement in "Unconditional Election" in the sense that when Jesus says all, we believe He means all.

Limited atonement/Irresistible Grace are something we deny. Got wants to save all, and calls all, but many will resist/reject Him, and that is something He has always.

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

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Sure seems like he crushed Paul's will to ravish the church.

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Under your view, did all of Paul's future sins occur because God didn't force him to do the good thing instead? If God overrides our will, to make us do good then every future sin happens because He chose not to stop it. Which would mean God wants us to sin, otherwise He would have stopped it. I just can't get on board with this.

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Paul's future sins occurred because of the battle waging between the flesh and spirit. Upon our regeneration, this battle doesn't go away.

But clearly Paul's desire to ravish the church and God's people instantaneously changed in this miraculous conversion story. Our regeneration is that change that God initiates to supplant our original desires that are not bent toward God.

---

"The battle waging between flesh and spirit". You have said God overrides our will to make us do good. So God overrode Paul's desires to kill the Church, but not his desires for fleshly sins. Therefore, any instance of Paul not doing good is God intentionally not overriding Paul's will. Therefore, God wanted Paul to sin. God has to desire sin in this framework

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Zobel said:

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you are stating things as fact which are at odds with scripture. and, you're using those statements to draw conclusions.

I agree St Paul was meeting those Greek pagans - he was quoting one of their poets, the line about "we are his offspring" is a quote of Epimenides and is about Zeus (!). That doesn't make it untrue, what he is saying is that we are indeed offspring, all of us, of God, the true Most High God who is NOT Zeus, and He wants us to worship Him and not the false gods.

We are all God's children - St Paul says it. It is true. The scriptures are not false.

Quote:

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not everyone will inherit.

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Correct. But this does not make them not children.

Inheritance is important to understand. Esau was still Abraham's son, but he did not inherit the promises. Jacob did - the younger. And later, Esau's offspring the nation of Edom were cut off, because they were not loyal to the Heir, which was the offspring of Israel - and not just that, but only Judah, not the northern kingdom.

So inheritance flows to the unique heir, and it is through faithfulness to the heir that all are blessed. Christ Jesus is the heir of the promises of Abraham as the unique seed, and the heir to all creation as the unique Son of God, and IF we share in His sufferings and are faithful to Him, He will share that inheritance with us.

There is no scriptural basis that God does not love all mankind. Quite the contrary, God moved to save us before we loved Him, while we were at enmity with Him. His love was revealed precisely that He sent His Son not because we loved Him but because He loved us first to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Does God love you? He died to save you before you loved Him. And this is just as true for each and every single human being who does not love Him and is in their sins. His blood took away the sins of the world. While we were still sinners, He died for us. What makes you a better sinner than anyone else that you deny the love of God to your brothers?

this is the pernicious evil behind these kind of theologies. they tempt to judge, they tempt to make each of us proud - God loves me, I'm saved, I'm not reprobate - they tempt us to be like the Pharisee, when we should be like the Publican -- God have mercy on me a sinner!

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

---

If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

---

How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

---

So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

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It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

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I fear I'm losing your (my) point a bit but I'll say that yes, He "left them out intentionally". He shows mercy to whom He chooses to show mercy and it won't be to everyone.

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To clarify the point I'm trying to make based on your premise in my first bullet:

- we can't do good unless we first know Jesus
- billions of people have never had the opportunity to do so
- God is all powerful and could have done so
- therefore God did not want to do so and "left them out intentionally"

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I generally do not disagree with this summarization. I would say:
- we can't ultimately do good until we are regenerated
- Some (I do not know how many) people will remain unregenerated
- God is all powerful and could regenerate every heart
- But He chose not to

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

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Sure seems like he crushed Paul's will to ravish the church.

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Under your view, did all of Paul's future sins occur because God didn't force him to do the good thing instead? If God overrides our will, to make us do good then every future sin happens because He chose not to stop it. Which would mean God wants us to sin, otherwise He would have stopped it. I just can't get on board with this.

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Paul's future sins occurred because of the battle waging between the flesh and spirit. Upon our regeneration, this battle doesn't go away.

But clearly Paul's desire to ravish the church and God's people instantaneously changed in this miraculous conversion story. Our regeneration is that change that God initiates to supplant our original desires that are not bent toward God.

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"The battle waging between flesh and spirit". You have said God overrides our will to make us do good. So God overrode Paul's desires to kill the Church, but not his desires for fleshly sins. Therefore, any instance of Paul not doing good is God intentionally not overriding Paul's will. Therefore, God wanted Paul to sin. God has to desire sin in this framework

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Paul is the one who desired to sin in this example. When you or I sin, you or I desire to sin more than we desire to be obedient to God. It is most definitely not God who desires us to sin. This is our free will.

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