I think man can only be righteousness if God implies it on him through faith. Look at Abraham in Paul's example.

We don't deserve heaven. We can't be righteous. But we can have faith in God.

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So if we are choosing to do these good things despite not necessarily feeling like it because we know we should, how is that not a work? I agree with your response. Catholics believe that. But somehow we get labeled as "works based salvation".

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Who said it wasn't a work? We obey the Lord's commandments because we love Him and want to please Him. We don't do these works to be saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

---

And we end up back where we started. We do good deeds because we're saved. So what if we don't do them? Options that I have seen are:

1. You aren't really saved, which means God never gave you the grace to be saved. He could have but he didn't. Reformed/calvinism. We don't have true free will and our good deeds are not of our own choosing. I think this flies in the face of reality.

2. He's given you the grace and down the road you later reject His commands. Our free will is intact throughout our lives and we actively cooperate. Our works are of our own choosing. He inspired us and teaches us, but at the end of the day, we decide to follow or not. So while our works alone can not save us, they are a pivotal factor in our salvation.

Unless you have a third option…

---

Faith without works is dead. You know this scripture. If you claim to have faith but show no fruit, I'd be concerned for the salvation of that person.

God doesn't force us to do anything; He gives us the desire to love and obey Him.

We disagree on many doctrines I can see; they all tie together, so we will likely talk in circles.

10andBOUNCE said:

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God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.

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If God's entire goal was to make humans into Christians, then He went about it in a very inefficient way. Just start with the thousands of years of human history prior to Abraham, then another few thousand years before Jesus came along, and then another few thousand years before Christianity spread across the globe. Seems to me that if God's only desire was for Christian converts, then it's a big problem that most the humans throughout most of history never heard the Gospel. That doesn't even mention the people that only heard of Christianity from greedy and bloodthirsty conquerors. Seems like God could do better if that was His only goal.

Quote:

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It starts with man is culpable for his sinful actions even though God uses them. Look at Judas, and many many others in the Bible.

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I think we can all agree that man is culpable for his sin. It's the "God uses them" part. What does that mean? Judas betrayed Jesus so that he was arrested, went to trial, convicted, and crucified. What was God's role?

Zobel said:

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this is kind of a tautology. your statements read like - we can't do good because the unregenerate don't have God for the basis of their morality, but His law is written on their hearts, so they have a basic level of morality, but they can't do good because etc etc

i think it is closer to the mark to say that God is active in the world, always working for human salvation. when people - anyone - do good, it is because the Spirit of God is working and their good works are their participation in Him, and are credited to Him. things that are good are good - we don't have to argue away that some good things are actually bad even though they look good. love, justice, kindness, mercy are good - no matter who does them. hatred, injustice, cruelty, jealousy are bad - no matter who does them. God judges the heart, the intent of every thought and action, and He is both merciful and just. His justice is perfect mercy and His mercy is perfectly just.

quite explicitly St Paul says those of the nations - pagans, assuredly - who do good are a Torah unto themselves, and their following of this law can excuse them at the judgment.

there's nowhere in the scriptures - not a single place - that says nonchristians automatically go to hell. nor do the church fathers teach this. the warnings against damnation are to christians, which is absolutely coherent with the continuing scriptural theme that those who are given much have much expected of them. we modern christians with access to so much will be held to a higher standard.

Cornelius was a pagan, uncircumcised, unbaptized, had not received the Holy Spirit, knew nothing of Jesus. by any reckoning (baptism or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) he was "unregenerate" - and yet he was righteous. why? because his prayers and almsgiving ascended as a memorial to God. St Peter says - in any nation anyone who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to God.

we should always remember that Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it; that He is the lover of mankind and continually and unilaterally moves to save mankind; that He does not want anyone to perish in their sins.

even at a very simple level -- what practical or pastoral value is this teaching of total depravity? what kind of evangelical sense does it make to tell people that good is bad sometimes?

and what righteousness is there in schism based on this point? does it matter? does it make you more or less obedient or faithful to think like this?

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Amen and amen. Thank you.

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

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I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

---

If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

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Agree

Zobel said:

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you don't know that they will reject God, and you are not the judge

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Seems like there is a lot of that going on in this thread.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So if we are choosing to do these good things despite not necessarily feeling like it because we know we should, how is that not a work? I agree with your response. Catholics believe that. But somehow we get labeled as "works based salvation".

---

Who said it wasn't a work? We obey the Lord's commandments because we love Him and want to please Him. We don't do these works to be saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

---

And we end up back where we started. We do good deeds because we're saved. So what if we don't do them? Options that I have seen are:

1. You aren't really saved, which means God never gave you the grace to be saved. He could have but he didn't. Reformed/calvinism. We don't have true free will and our good deeds are not of our own choosing. I think this flies in the face of reality.

2. He's given you the grace and down the road you later reject His commands. Our free will is intact throughout our lives and we actively cooperate. Our works are of our own choosing. He inspired us and teaches us, but at the end of the day, we decide to follow or not. So while our works alone can not save us, they are a pivotal factor in our salvation.

Unless you have a third option…

---

Faith without works is dead. You know this scripture. If you claim to have faith but show no fruit, I'd be concerned for the salvation of that person.

God doesn't force us to do anything; He gives us the desire to love and obey Him.

We disagree on many doctrines I can see; they all tie together, so we will likely talk in circles.

---

You'd be concerned for that person's salvation why? If God gave that desire to saved persons, and saved persons don't do it, what happens?

If you dig into this you'll end up Calvinist/Reformed or agreeing with the traditional faiths of Catholicism/EO. There is a reason why the reformed movement is growing in Baptist/non-denom circles. If God is the SOLE cause of our good actions and we don't have them, it's because God didn't pick us. He actively chose to leave us out of Heaven because He and He alone could have given us the faith/behavior change.

If we have a role to play in our good works, and faith without works is dead, you'll eventually fall in line with the traditional faiths. I've yet to hear a good middle ground, but I'm open to learning about one.

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

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I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

---

It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

---

I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

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A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?

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Scripture really doesn't support these claims.

Scripture calls us slaves to sin and children of wrath. Our fallen nature rejects God. We don't choose anything.

God chose us. Any understanding of God we have is because of Him. Any desire to follow is from Him. It is because of him that we can do anything.

We need to get away from this mindset that we have the capacity to choose God. Our salvation is God plan. Our damnation or rejection is our asserting our free will.

---

Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

Galatians 6 7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matthew 6:33

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Just a few verses implying we have free will to make choices. And Scripture also says we are created in the image of God.

God bless.

---

I guess context doesn't matter?

Romans 10:9 ignores the previous verses.

"5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Which points us back to Romans 2:

"12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Are you to argue that the Gentiles chose to write the law on their own hearts? Of course not.

he ends Romans 2 with this:

'29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

It is the Spirits work that frees us. It's the Spirits work that draws us to God. Not some perceived choice we think we have. We naturally reject God, but God draws us in spite of ourselves.

AgLiving06 said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

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No? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

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Then I guess I misread your post. I thought that's what you were driving at. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

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If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

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How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

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So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

---

I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

---

It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

---

I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

---

A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?

---

Scripture really doesn't support these claims.

Scripture calls us slaves to sin and children of wrath. Our fallen nature rejects God. We don't choose anything.

God chose us. Any understanding of God we have is because of Him. Any desire to follow is from Him. It is because of him that we can do anything.

We need to get away from this mindset that we have the capacity to choose God. Our salvation is God plan. Our damnation or rejection is our asserting our free will.

---

Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

Galatians 6 7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matthew 6:33

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Just a few verses implying we have free will to make choices. And Scripture also says we are created in the image of God.

God bless.

---

I guess context doesn't matter?

Romans 10:9 ignores the previous verses.

"5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Which points us back to Romans 2:

"12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Are you to argue that the Gentiles chose to write the law on their own hearts? Of course not.

he ends Romans 2 with this:

'29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

It is the Spirits work that frees us. It's the Spirits work that draws us to God. Not some perceived choice we think we have. We naturally reject God, but God draws us in spite of ourselves.

---

How come that does not happen in Muslim countries? Are the elect only in Christian countries?

And I almost did not put Romans 10:9 on there because of the context issue. Thanks for explaining that.

What about the other verses which seem to clearly state we choose?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

We are not good apart from God, but we are never apart from God. We are God's creation, and He always loves us, supports us, and strengthens us no matter what we may think about Him. I can't get behind the doctrine of total depravity, because that would mean that God has abandoned people and withdrawn His grace. But God doesn't do that. Even the most evil person in history could repent and the next minute could be working in cooperation with God's grace to do good deeds and fulfill God's will.

---

That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing God's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

I do agree with your last statement about the most evil person potentially ultimately being saved; it's possible, absolutely. Paul comes to mind.

You said God judges the heart - I agree. And good works can look good on the surface but if the heart isn't in the right place, it's not ultimately good.

Zobel said:

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this is the product of the systematic / algorithm approach, leading to the minimalistic. you've collapsed salvation into a single thing, but the scriptures do not.

men are saved from death, from Sin as a corrupting force of evil in the world, from demonic domination, and from their own sins. men are also saved toward something - everlasting life, new creation, union with God.

Jesus does all of these things. the first three He did unilaterally in His own person for all mankind. Christ is the savior of all mankind, and especially those who are faithful.

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Amen.

Quote:

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We are not all God's children

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wrong.

Quote:

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Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In him we live and move and have our being';

as even some of your own poets have said,

"'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

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Quote:

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

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The worst thing that God does to any person in the Bible is to end their life. So if that counts as God's wrath, then we're all going to feel it. Not to mention all the times God was mad at even his favorite people like Moses or David. The saved and the unsaved will all have sickness, pain, suffering, poverty, and death. The saved and the unsaved are all God's children. He loves all of us. That doesn't mean He is always happy with us.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

We are not good apart from God, but we are never apart from God. We are God's creation, and He always loves us, supports us, and strengthens us no matter what we may think about Him. I can't get behind the doctrine of total depravity, because that would mean that God has abandoned people and withdrawn His grace. But God doesn't do that. Even the most evil person in history could repent and the next minute could be working in cooperation with God's grace to do good deeds and fulfill God's will.

---

That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

I do agree with your last statement about the most evil person potentially ultimately being saved; it's possible, absolutely. Paul comes to mind.

---

Wow. We are all God's children. He created every one of us and we all bear His image. He knit every one of us together in the womb,

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.

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Agree. Does God get what He wants?

And your post goes against the Calvinist concept of election as I understand it.

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We all start as non-Christians (pagans).

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But if God wants all men to be saved (which is clear on Scripture) how does that fit in with double pre destination?

There are only two options if God wants to save all men
Free will allows man to refuse God
Or God wins and everybody is saved

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Exactly, if God's chief desire was to save all men, then all men would be saved but all men will not be saved (unless you're a universalist, which is unbiblical). Therefore, God must have some other chief desire.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Are you implying a pagan can please God?

---

I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

---

Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

---

So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

---

If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

---

How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

---

So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

---

It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

any attempt to systematize and temporalize the desires of God are futile.

but again - practical, pastoral, evangelical. we don't know who will be saved. God wants all men to be saved. we should want all men to be saved. we should pray for the salvation of all. what practical, pastoral, or evangelical value is there in focusing on who will not be saved or trying to figure it out? we should look to our own sins, practice obedience, faithfulness, humility, and love. God loves each and every human being more than we can possibly imagine.

Zobel said:

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any attempt to systematize and temporalize the desires of God are futile.

but again - practical, pastoral, evangelical. we don't know who will be saved. God wants all men to be saved. we should want all men to be saved. we should pray for the salvation of all. what practical, pastoral, or evangelical value is there in focusing on who will not be saved or trying to figure it out? we should look to our own sins, practice obedience, faithfulness, humility, and love. God loves each and every human being more than we can possibly imagine.

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I think this is the crux. God having desires is anthropomorphic. He is blessed forever and doesn't have wants.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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That's just not true. The Bible is full of scripture describing god's wrath against humanity. We are not all God's children and those who are not will endure His wrath.

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The saved and the unsaved are all God's children. He loves all of us.

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Ouch. A loving father would send some of his children to eternal damnation to endure his wrath forever? Sounds worse than election and reprobation.

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.

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Agree. Does God get what He wants?

And your post goes against the Calvinist concept of election as I understand it.

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We all start as non-Christians (pagans).

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But if God wants all men to be saved (which is clear on Scripture) how does that fit in with double pre destination?

There are only two options if God wants to save all men
Free will allows man to refuse God
Or God wins and everybody is saved

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Exactly, if God's chief desire was to save all men, then all men would be saved but all men will not be saved (unless you're a universalist, which is unbiblical). Therefore, God must have some other chief desire.

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And now I have to agree the other way. Or at least partly. God's chief desire is that we choose to love Him. Not forced to loved Him. Thats how he started with Adam and Eve (freedom to eat the stupid apple) and how He operates today.

Fact of the matter is there are atheists today that will say that even if they were convicted that Christianity was real, they would reject the Christian God. I know you don't like that Derm, but it is what it is. The only way God bats 1.000 is to overwhelm free will

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I completely agree. As I said, there are only two options as Scripture is clear God desires all men to be saved.

You say free will trumps God and I say God trumps free will.

Does not mean I believe there is not refining punishment.

Zobel said:

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We are not all God's children

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wrong.

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Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In him we live and move and have our being';

as even some of your own poets have said,

"'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

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John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to BECOME children of God,

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

1 John 3:10

To be clear, I don't believe our free will trumps God. I believe God ALLOWS us to use our free will and reject him totally. He could crush our will but He doesn't.

sure, image and likeness. we are all God's children, just as the Judaeans were Abraham's children. but not all were Abraham's children - "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did" and "not all who are of Israel are Israel".

some will not take hold of the end to which they were called. but all mankind is called to the ultimate end of union with the divine nature, growing up to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

St Paul is not wrong, speaking to a group of pagan philosophers. Note he includes himself in the "we" as offspring of God. is is that fact - we are God's children - that compels us to do the works of the Father.

same principle. everywhere in the scriptures child/father language is about imaging - what you do is who you image, if you do the works of abraham you are abraham's children.