I am just reading the Scripture.10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
The Banned said:Howdy, it is me! said:The Banned said:Howdy, it is me! said:The Banned said:
So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.
Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?
It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.
So who acts on the motivation? Do you act on it, or does God make you act on it? If we are supposed to please God, and He gives us the motivation only, doesn't that imply that we have a choice whether or not to do the pleasing action? Or vice versa, choose not to do the pleasing action? I don't know how that isn't works.
God changes our hearts, makes us a new creation, one that desires Him, which includes obeying and pleasing Him; we are never absolved of responsibility. So yes, we have a choice, and after regeneration we desire to choose God.
So when a professed Christian goes through spiritual desolation, doesn't "feel" God, and has none of those motivated feelings, does that mean said Christian isn't actually saved? Once his motivation is gone, should he just abandon the commands of the Bible? Or should he, through his intellect, realize that just because the spirit isn't moving in him at this particular moment, he is stilled called to act righteously?
dermdoc said:
Jesus told the person to go and act like the Good Samaritan, correct?
Would not that be saying Jesus approved what the Good Samaritan did?
And that this was the way to eternal life?
AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
dermdoc said:AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It is fascinating that both of these parables, which are about eternal life, stress works. No altar call, no sinner's prayer, etc. No mention of pagan or non pagan. Just those who did good vs those who did bad.
The Banned said:
So if we are choosing to do these good things despite not necessarily feeling like it because we know we should, how is that not a work? I agree with your response. Catholics believe that. But somehow we get labeled as "works based salvation".
10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
I've just perused that catechism and don't see the final judgement addressed. The Westminster Confession however has a whole chapter on it.dermdoc said:The Westminster shorter catechism states that justification is by faith alone.Martin Q. Blank said:What do you mean evangelical theology? Can you give me a confession or catechism to refer to?dermdoc said:Who is in "hell"? Nobody until judgement day in your theology, correct?Martin Q. Blank said:Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?dermdoc said:So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?Martin Q. Blank said:Yesdermdoc said:So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Scripture states clearly that nobody is thrown into the lake of fire until Judgement Day, correct?
It is fascinating to me that you agree Scripture states clearly that we are judged on our deeds. Evil or good. That is not Evangelical theology at all. And I agree with you. As does Matthew 25 46.
Not by good or evil deeds.
The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.
What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.
Martin Q. Blank said:I've just perused that catechism and don't see the final judgement addressed. The Westminster Confession however has a whole chapter on it.dermdoc said:The Westminster shorter catechism states that justification is by faith alone.Martin Q. Blank said:What do you mean evangelical theology? Can you give me a confession or catechism to refer to?dermdoc said:Who is in "hell"? Nobody until judgement day in your theology, correct?Martin Q. Blank said:Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?dermdoc said:So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?Martin Q. Blank said:Yesdermdoc said:So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Scripture states clearly that nobody is thrown into the lake of fire until Judgement Day, correct?
It is fascinating to me that you agree Scripture states clearly that we are judged on our deeds. Evil or good. That is not Evangelical theology at all. And I agree with you. As does Matthew 25 46.
Not by good or evil deeds.
CHAPTER 33
Of the Last Judgment
1. God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father. In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
2. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.
Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I don't understand how these verses answer bounce's question about pagans?
These verses show how the righteous pleased Him and the unrighteous did not. A pagan would not be considered righteous.
10andBOUNCE said:
God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.
AGC said:Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I don't understand how these verses answer bounce's question about pagans?
These verses show how the righteous pleased Him and the unrighteous did not. A pagan would not be considered righteous.
How do you know they're righteous? By what they say or what they do?
I'm not disagreeing with you, but how exactly does that work? How is it that we do whatever the hand of God and his plan predestines to take place, but yet we're still culpable?aggiedata said:
God is not the author of sin, but He can use sinful men to attain an objective.
Look at Babylon, the crucifixion.
Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I don't understand how these verses answer bounce's question about pagans?
These verses show how the righteous pleased Him and the unrighteous did not. A pagan would not be considered righteous.
How do you know they're righteous? By what they say or what they do?
Because the text says they are righteous and no one is righteous apart from Jesus. Therefore, not pagans.
Howdy, it is me! said:The Banned said:
So if we are choosing to do these good things despite not necessarily feeling like it because we know we should, how is that not a work? I agree with your response. Catholics believe that. But somehow we get labeled as "works based salvation".
Who said it wasn't a work? We obey the Lord's commandments because we love Him and want to please Him. We don't do these works to be saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.
dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.
Agree. Does God get what He wants?
And your post goes against the Calvinist concept of election as I understand it.
Howdy, it is me! said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.
What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.
Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.
We are not good apart from God, but we are never apart from God. We are God's creation, and He always loves us, supports us, and strengthens us no matter what we may think about Him. I can't get behind the doctrine of total depravity, because that would mean that God has abandoned people and withdrawn His grace. But God doesn't do that. Even the most evil person in history could repent and the next minute could be working in cooperation with God's grace to do good deeds and fulfill God's will.Howdy, it is me! said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.
What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.
Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.
The Banned said:
So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.
Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?
YesQuote:
It comes down to this question that I struggled with for years. Is man inherently good or bad?
AGC said:Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:Howdy, it is me! said:AGC said:10andBOUNCE said:
Are you implying a pagan can please God?
What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:34-46?
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I don't understand how these verses answer bounce's question about pagans?
These verses show how the righteous pleased Him and the unrighteous did not. A pagan would not be considered righteous.
How do you know they're righteous? By what they say or what they do?
Because the text says they are righteous and no one is righteous apart from Jesus. Therefore, not pagans.
You're so busy skipping ahead you've ignored the plaintext reading. I'm not preaching universalism.
I'm saying followers of Tash will be going further up and further in with us, as they will recognize they were serving Christ all along in doing those things.
Edit: Be careful who you call pagan when even judeans and Christians cannot be counted on to do what God commands.
Howdy, it is me! said:dermdoc said:10andBOUNCE said:
God wants non Christians to repent and believe. Anything less is no consolation.
Agree. Does God get what He wants?
And your post goes against the Calvinist concept of election as I understand it.
We all start as non-Christians (pagans).
