Questions for Orthobros

2,239 Views | 29 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by Zobel
Quo Vadis?
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2:57p, 10/5/24
Turn the zobel signal on but I know there are many here.

Are there any orthodox icons that show anyone other than St Peter holding the Keys to the Kingdom?

I know that a disagreement with the "keys to the kingdom" discourse is that the keys were given to all the apostles vs exclusively to Peter.

I have seen many ancient orthodox icons of St Peter holding the keys, but not of any other apostles.






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TSJ
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10:26p, 10/6/24
AG
Long time Orthodox inquirer. I haven't come across any icons with other saints having the keys.

However, St. Peter established multiple churches that are Orthodox today. The Apostolic succession continues.

This isn't a gotcha.
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to TSJ • 12:44a, 10/7/24
Not meant to be a gotcha my friend. I love the orthodox, have great respect for them as brothers. Was hoping to be enlightened.
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TSJ
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6:19a, 10/7/24
AG
As far as I know, icons show items or experiences the saint is know for, sometimes including the method in which they were martyred.
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Zobel
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In reply to TSJ • 8:51a, 10/7/24
AG
TSJ said:
As far as I know, icons show items or experiences the saint is know for, sometimes including the method in which they were martyred.
I think this is it. There are icons that are considered prototypical for each saint based on traditional depictions and their hymnography etc. That includes what they look like, how they're dressed, and "pieces of flair". St Peter's prototypical depiction is with the keys.
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Zobel • 2:22a, 10/8/24
Zobel said:
TSJ said:
As far as I know, icons show items or experiences the saint is know for, sometimes including the method in which they were martyred.
I think this is it. There are icons that are considered prototypical for each saint based on traditional depictions and their hymnography etc. That includes what they look like, how they're dressed, and "pieces of flair". St Peter's prototypical depiction is with the keys.


Is the Orthodox understanding that St Peter was giving the keys specifically, but as a proxy for all Apostles?
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Zobel
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 9:08a, 10/8/24
AG
Well, I asked my godfather who is an iconographer this question and he replied:
Quote:
That's a good question. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I was commissioned to do an icon of St Peter, and it was explicitly requested that I put the keys in his hands. I felt a little bit uncomfortable, not knowing for sure if this was a later innovation iconologically.

I think that it is a detail that could be used as a weapon. But that it could be used as a weapon does not nullify its validity. To me, the thing that nullifies the validity is more so that there never were any actual real keys. They are symbolic. I have always leaned toward the literal in icons that I paint. And have always felt that I'm doing a little bit of compromise when I insert blatant symbols or allegories. I prefer simplicity, but maybe I am just simple minded.
And he then sent me a picture of the icon, with St Peter holding the keys.

So I think we have to consider what "given the keys" means.

Some food for thought:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2019/06/01/the-pre-schism-exegesis-of-who-has-the-keys/

And the follow-up
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2019/06/03/the-pre-schism-exegesis-of-who-has-the-keys-an-addendum/
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Zobel
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9:10a, 10/8/24
AG
The icon in question

Holy father Peter pray to God for us!
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Zobel • 10:13a, 10/8/24
Zobel said:
Well, I asked my godfather who is an iconographer this question and he replied:
Quote:
That's a good question. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I was commissioned to do an icon of St Peter, and it was explicitly requested that I put the keys in his hands. I felt a little bit uncomfortable, not knowing for sure if this was a later innovation iconologically.

I think that it is a detail that could be used as a weapon. But that it could be used as a weapon does not nullify its validity. To me, the thing that nullifies the validity is more so that there never were any actual real keys. They are symbolic. I have always leaned toward the literal in icons that I paint. And have always felt that I'm doing a little bit of compromise when I insert blatant symbols or allegories. I prefer simplicity, but maybe I am just simple minded.
And he then sent me a picture of the icon, with St Peter holding the keys.

So I think we have to consider what "given the keys" means.

Some food for thought:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2019/06/01/the-pre-schism-exegesis-of-who-has-the-keys/

And the follow-up
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2019/06/03/the-pre-schism-exegesis-of-who-has-the-keys-an-addendum/


We need to get Based Godfather on TexAgs
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jrico2727
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In reply to Zobel • 1:51p, 10/8/24
AG
Zobel said:
The icon in question

Holy father Peter pray to God for us!
Please give your GF my compliments very beautiful.


I don't know if he has made any but I am personally been moved by a statue I saw last year of a clearly pregnant Blessed Virgin and trying to encourage anyone to promote those images/ icon. I think it is a very impactful image and important to the time.
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CrackerJackAg
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9:32a, 10/9/24
AG
Well, I think it's worth also considering that he found the Church in Antioch first.

The western mindset and the western perspective has dominated for the last thousand years in Christendom.

It was not a widespread belief in the Roman/Byzantine Empire 1000 years ago that only Rome held the keys to The Church.



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one MEEN Ag
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1:10p, 10/10/24
AG
Am orthodox, no opinions that aren't shared here on the subject already.

I do have a big, pseudo rhetorical, question about Rome being the 'keys' anyway. If any church is to be the founding church - why is it not Jerusalem?

Rome is a significant seat because at the end of the day it is a usurp of the worldliest, biggest power of the time. One of the most violent societies in the world is overthrown from the ground up by Christianity. And thats great, but the first Christian emperor, St. Constantine, moved the capital eastward and founded Constantinople. So by earthly power, the early Christian period has the main seat of Constantinople. Furthermore, from a theological perspective, going all the way back to Melchizedek and the King of Salem, and where the action went down about Jesus's life and death and resurrection - the founding church would be Jerusalem.

Was Rome powerful? Yes. Did it hold significance for the apostles to go preach there? Yes. But even the biggest counsel, the first counsel in 325 didn't have the roman bishop themselves. So yes, they were important but not so important that their absence didn't make it a counsel. And the first counsel's deadlock on the nature of God was broken by a miracle performed by St. Spyridon anyway. So it didn't even really matter what the bishop sitting in Rome felt about it - He'd have to take that one up with God.

Seems pretty obvious to me that each of the patriarchate cities had a special role and context, but decisions were made as a body of equals. Huh, I wonder how long that lasted and what caused it to come to an end.
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Aggie1205
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2:49p, 10/10/24
AG
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
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CrackerJackAg
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 2:53p, 10/10/24
AG
After Rome faded into insignificance in relation to Constantinople, Alexandria and even Antioch, Rome really pressed the whole seat of Saint Peter in its claims for primacy.

Constantinople was considered the New Jerusalem so while Jerusalem still held huge significance it was not considered to be as significant as the Queen City.

When Belasarius recaptured Rome for the empire its population was less than 30,000 people. Down 97% from its peak.






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The Banned
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 3:53p, 10/10/24
one MEEN Ag said:
Am orthodox, no opinions that aren't shared here on the subject already.

I do have a big, pseudo rhetorical, question about Rome being the 'keys' anyway. If any church is to be the founding church - why is it not Jerusalem?

Rome is a significant seat because at the end of the day it is a usurp of the worldliest, biggest power of the time. One of the most violent societies in the world is overthrown from the ground up by Christianity. And thats great, but the first Christian emperor, St. Constantine, moved the capital eastward and founded Constantinople. So by earthly power, the early Christian period has the main seat of Constantinople. Furthermore, from a theological perspective, going all the way back to Melchizedek and the King of Salem, and where the action went down about Jesus's life and death and resurrection - the founding church would be Jerusalem.

Was Rome powerful? Yes. Did it hold significance for the apostles to go preach there? Yes. But even the biggest counsel, the first counsel in 325 didn't have the roman bishop themselves. So yes, they were important but not so important that their absence didn't make it a counsel. And the first counsel's deadlock on the nature of God was broken by a miracle performed by St. Spyridon anyway. So it didn't even really matter what the bishop sitting in Rome felt about it - He'd have to take that one up with God.

Seems pretty obvious to me that each of the patriarchate cities had a special role and context, but decisions were made as a body of equals. Huh, I wonder how long that lasted and what caused it to come to an end.


2 points:

1. Roman delegates were in attendance. Later councils that rejected delegates from Rome were declared robber councils. Even in modern times it's not the pope showing up and declaring what's what the vast majority of the time. But he does have to be included to some degree and his official dissent would invalidate it

2. After this council that made Caesarea a metropolitan see, the arians from this very region send a letter to Rome acknowledging their repentance from the Arian heresy. Why would they bother with Rome if they have their own equal authority right there?
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AggieRain
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In reply to Aggie1205 • 4:53p, 10/10/24
AG
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
I was going with Kenny Rogers...
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747Ag
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In reply to Aggie1205 • 5:00p, 10/10/24
AG
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.

Best GM the Cowboys have had... Been a scourge of mediocrity since he left Dallas. Probably took the keys to success with him.
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747Ag
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In reply to AggieRain • 5:01p, 10/10/24
AG
AggieRain said:
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
I was going with Kenny Rogers...
He's not a gambler.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to CrackerJackAg • 9:31a, 10/11/24
AG
CrackerJackAg said:
When Belasarius recaptured Rome for the empire its population was less than 30,000 people. Down 97% from its peak.
Rome was down 97% to 30k at one pont? Hearing this gives me the same reaction as seeing tu unranked.
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Serotonin
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10:51a, 10/11/24
AG
We shouldn't cast too many stones at Rome's situation 1,000 years ago given the state of the Orthodox Church today in Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem.
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to AggieRain • 11:04a, 10/11/24
AggieRain said:
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
I was going with Kenny Rogers...


You've got to know when to hold em, know when to deny him thrice.
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jrico2727
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In reply to 747Ag • 11:20a, 10/11/24
AG
747Ag said:
AggieRain said:
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
I was going with Kenny Rogers...
He's not a gambler.
They did cast lots to replace Judas.

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747Ag
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In reply to jrico2727 • 11:23a, 10/11/24
AG
jrico2727 said:
747Ag said:
AggieRain said:
Aggie1205 said:
4th image looks like Jimmy Johnson.
I was going with Kenny Rogers...
He's not a gambler.
They did cast lots to replace Judas.

They did, but Peter wasn't in the game.
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jrico2727
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In reply to 747Ag • 11:50a, 10/11/24
AG
The Choice of Judas's Successor.
15During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said,
16"My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.
17He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry.
18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.*
19This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood.
20For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his encampment become desolate,
and may no one dwell in it.'
And:
'May another take his office.'

21Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
22beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."
23So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.
24Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
25to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place."
26* Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

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747Ag
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In reply to jrico2727 • 12:33p, 10/11/24
AG
jrico2727 said:
The Choice of Judas's Successor.
15During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said,
16"My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.
17He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry.
18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.*
19This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood.
20For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his encampment become desolate,
and may no one dwell in it.'
And:
'May another take his office.'

21Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
22beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection."
23So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias.
24Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
25to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place."
26* Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

Dang... Reading comprehension failure. I was thinking about Our Blessed Lord's garments
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jrico2727
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In reply to 747Ag • 2:21p, 10/11/24
AG
No biggie, not a gotcha. I had to go and reread it myself.
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747Ag
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In reply to jrico2727 • 2:34p, 10/11/24
AG
jrico2727 said:
No biggie, not a gotcha. I had to go and reread it myself.
Haha... had a conversation earlier today before this exchange talking about how my reading comprehension is not very good. So I became an engineer...
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Zobel
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In reply to jrico2727 • 5:45p, 10/11/24
AG
I think largely the witness of the church is that St Matthias was not God's choice as the replacement for Judas, but St Paul. So maybe not the greatest example of St Peter's leadership.
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jrico2727
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In reply to Zobel • 6:56p, 10/11/24
AG
Zobel said:
I think largely the witness of the church is that St Matthias was not God's choice as the replacement for Judas, but St Paul. So maybe not the greatest example of St Peter's leadership.


Well God love him, St. Peter had more of a shoot from the hip leadership style.To be honest I had not heard that St. Paul was the choice to replace Judas.

Interesting to imagine had Judas been able to hold on till the Resurrection and repent as St. Peter did would he have had the role of St. Paul did?
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Zobel
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In reply to jrico2727 • 8:07p, 10/11/24
AG
I mean, if you look at icons of the ascension for example it's always St. Paul there.

It seems St Paul was the Spirit's choice for replacement. Don't think anyone told them to cast lots. But yeah, that's pretty typical St Peter.
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