USCCB afraid to call a spade a spade again.

2,810 Views | 40 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Quo Vadis?
Quo Vadis?
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Once again let's make sure nobody knows that we're actually anti-abortion; we have to use the new pc-term "pro-life" whenever we discuss abortion to make sure people don't think we are actually against abortion, and then reference another few buzz words like "pro-women"…….what does that even mean?

We need our yes to be yes and our no to be no. We are emphatically anti-abortion on the issue of abortion. Our pro-life philosophy encompasses many other subjects including euthanasia, the death penalty, healthcare, family life, etc etc, but that doesn't make us anything but anti-abortion on abortion policy
PabloSerna
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AG
Bishop Vasquez is not playing politics in my estimation. I happened to have sat through a number of his homilies at the Cathedral here in Austin where all 8 of my kiddos attended school and we attend mass.

This IS a war of words and they (people who support abortion as a means to end an unwanted pregnancy) want to remove any and all human connection to abortion. So it was a while ago that they stopped using the term, "Pro-Life" and labeled anyone against their position as "Anti-Abortion" while they emphasized that they are "Pro-Choice" - that's politics.

Meanwhile, the RCC has always stayed firm that ours was about the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death. So the good Bishop is spot on!





“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Zobel
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Can't be pro-life if you're not anti-abortion.

Quo Vadis?
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Let the politicians play politics. Wordsmithing is the purview of the Public Relations firm, not the shepherd.

We are anti-abortion, we are anti-euthanasia because those are specific concepts in and of themselves, which are part of a greater overarching pro-life ethos.
PabloSerna
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Our God is the God life. It's not playing politics, it is bearing witness to the truth. They want to limit the message by de-humanizing this point. So, again- politics is what you are playing into. We know what we started, go back and look- it was always "Pro Life" it was never "Anti-Abortion." You are actually playing into their game, IMO.

ETA: NPR article on it.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Quo Vadis?
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PabloSerna said:

Our God is the God life. It's not playing politics, it is bearing witness to the truth. They want to limit the message by de-humanizing this point. So, again- politics is what you are playing into. We know what we started, go back and look- it was always "Pro Life" it was never "Anti-Abortion." You are actually playing into their game, IMO.

ETA: NPR article on it.


That NPR article reads like a cautionary tale that is a mix of 1984 and Hideous Strength.

Have you not said the Catholic Church is anti-death penalty many times?
PabloSerna
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AG
Suggest those that would embrace the de-humanizing of the Pro Life message do some research. So many articles on why saying "anti-abortion" is actually playing politics. It is about life and not just the baby's life, that is what Bishop Vasquez is saying.



“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna
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I'm pretty careful not to speak that way, because the message of life IS what will end abortion.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna
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For those that won't touch an NPR link...

"For decades, journalists have worked to separate the language in news stories about abortion from the political rhetoric used by those fighting to criminalize or decriminalize the medical procedure."

I mean, within the first paragraph you have it right there. To some, it is only about a medical procedure and access to it by right. To others (like me) it is about life.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Quo Vadis?
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PabloSerna said:

I'm pretty careful not to speak that way, because the message of life IS what will end abortion.


I disagree, and I would think any thinking person would as well. Culture is downstream of legislation regardless of how much we like to pretend it's the other way around. We didn't try to convince everyone of the evils of slavery and work towards voluntary manumission, we criminalized it and then sought to change hearts and minds; and it worked.

What you are talking about seems to be the "seamless cloth" facade of progressive Catholicism. The one that states that littering is as grave an evil as terminating a pregnancy. I do not ascribe to that belief system.
The Banned
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I almost never do this, but I agree with Pablo here. I also have had issues with stances taken by bishop Vasquez before, but not here.

The critics on the left are constantly playing the "you're only pro birth" card so it is important that we include our Christian responsibility to help those in need into the argument against abortion. That's why I'm a big fan of the Let Them Live organization. They seem to be doing things the right way.
The Banned
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Quo Vadis? said:

PabloSerna said:

I'm pretty careful not to speak that way, because the message of life IS what will end abortion.


I disagree, and I would think any thinking person would as well. Culture is downstream of legislation regardless of how much we like to pretend it's the other way around. We didn't try to convince everyone of the evils of slavery and work towards voluntary manumission, we criminalized it and then sought to change hearts and minds; and it worked.

What you are talking about seems to be the "seamless cloth" facade of progressive Catholicism. The one that states that littering is as grave an evil as terminating a pregnancy. I do not ascribe to that belief system.


Maybe I missed it, but did the bishop suggest we don't work to outlaw abortion? If he did, that would be very wrong.
PabloSerna
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AG
Its word play when you go down that path. That is why Jesus said, "love your neighbor" -he distilled the many laws into a few words. Like only Jesus could, he pointed out the spirit of the law and that was what man needed to hear. Before they had gotten so legalistic.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Quo Vadis?
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The Banned said:

Quo Vadis? said:

PabloSerna said:

I'm pretty careful not to speak that way, because the message of life IS what will end abortion.


I disagree, and I would think any thinking person would as well. Culture is downstream of legislation regardless of how much we like to pretend it's the other way around. We didn't try to convince everyone of the evils of slavery and work towards voluntary manumission, we criminalized it and then sought to change hearts and minds; and it worked.

What you are talking about seems to be the "seamless cloth" facade of progressive Catholicism. The one that states that littering is as grave an evil as terminating a pregnancy. I do not ascribe to that belief system.


Maybe I missed it, but did the bishop suggest we don't work to outlaw abortion? If he did, that would be very wrong.


No, and I don't think he believes that. He is not my favorite bishop but he is not a terrible one either. However, he seems to be adopting the spirit of the age with his language on the subject. We have too many wordsmiths with croziers; who nuance all of our opinions because they're afraid of unleashing double barreled truth on their flock.

We are very much against abortion; that equals anti-abortion. That is our stance on abortion qua abortion. That is not the summation of our holistic life ethos; but it is the truth none the less.
PabloSerna
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It's 53 seconds. Hit play and listen. He summarizes our responsibilities as disciples of Christ. Again, he isn't playing politics, he is being a Shepheard to his flock.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

Can't be pro-life if you're not anti-abortion.


Agree. Every abortion ends one of God's creation made in His image, knit together personally by Him in the womb.

Also stops any destiny God had planned for that creation.

Very serious stuff.
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Zobel
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It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
Agree.
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PabloSerna
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Not surprised you would disagree. But hear me out...

How do you overcome evil? With good.
How do you overcome darkness? With light.

There are other examples. However, as I read the very same gospel you do, I am blown away at how Jesus sees the mission differently than the Pharisees. Here is a case in point (Mk 3:1-6):

3 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come forward." 4 Then he said to them, "Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Newsflash, we have not ended abortion. We have to change hearts and minds about abortion for it to finally end itself -respecting and valuing all life from its earliest stages to its natural end is the way. I am not saying there is not good coming about by the Dobson decision, but I can promise you that it is not the victory some think it is.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Quo Vadis?
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PabloSerna said:

Not surprised you would disagree. But hear me out...

How do you overcome evil? With good.
How do you overcome darkness? With light.

There are other examples. However, as I read the very same gospel you do, I am blown away at how Jesus sees the mission differently than the Pharisees. Here is a case in point (Mk 3:1-6):

3 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come forward." 4 Then he said to them, "Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Newsflash, we have not ended abortion. We have to change hearts and minds about abortion for it to finally end itself -respecting and valuing all life from its earliest stages to its natural end is the way. I am not saying there is not good coming about by the Dobson decision, but I can promise you that it is not the victory some think it is.




We have not ended murder at large either Pablo, but I still think it right to criminalize rather than wait for hearts and minds to come around. Same with every other crime against the imago dei; prostitution; slavery; sexual abuse, etc etc.

You take the victories where they come. The progressives have perfected incrementalism; they establish beach heads and then move on to the next one. That's how we've gone from civil partnerships to Fr Jimmy Martin blessing but totally not blessing a gay couple after mass.
PabloSerna
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Zobel said:

It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
Those are your words.

Our church is trying to "build a culture of life from womb to tomb" - USCCB Respect Life ministries.




“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna
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AG
When did this become a progressive vs "insert name" movement?

It is about the bigger picture and that is what Bishop Vasquez and the USCCB Respect Life ministry is emphasizing. Is it import to understand that? Maybe not. At least know that they are not playing politics with it, they are staying true to the message of the gospel.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

Zobel said:

It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
Those are your words.

Our church is trying to "build a culture of life from womb to tomb" - USCCB Respect Life ministries.







And here is where you lose me. Are you saying the Church is not anti-abortion?
747Ag
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This is great example of how to speak the truth, especially as regards one's responsibilities. Note the warning towards one's soul.

Zobel
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Why are you acting like being anti-abortion is in opposition to being pro-life?
Quote:

From the beginning, the living Tradition of the Church - as shown by the Didache, the most ancient non-biblical Christian writing - categorically repeated the commandment "You shall not kill": "...you shall not kill ... you shall not put a child to death by abortion nor kill it once it is born ... The way of death is this: ... they kill their children and by abortion cause God's creatures to perish."

As time passed, the Church's Tradition has always consistently taught the absolute and unchanging value of the commandment "You shall not kill".
...
Among all the crimes which can be committed against life, procured abortion has characteristics making it particularly serious and deplorable. The Second Vatican Council defines abortion, together with infanticide, as an "unspeakable crime".
...
...No word has the power to change the reality of things: procured abortion is the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth.

...

The moral gravity of procured abortion is apparent in all its truth if we recognize that we are dealing with murder and, in particular, when we consider the specific elements involved. The one eliminated is a human being at the very beginning of life. No one more absolutely innocent could be imagined.

responsibility likewise falls on the legislators who have promoted and approved abortion laws, and, to the extent that they have a say in the matter, on the administrators of the health-care centers where abortions are performed. A general and no less serious responsibility lies with those who have encouraged the spread of an attitude of sexual permissiveness and a lack of esteem for motherhood, and with those who should have ensured-but did not-effective family and social policies in support of families, especially larger families and those with particular financial and educational needs. Finally, one cannot overlook the network of complicity which reaches out to include international institutions, foundations and associations which systematically campaign for the legalization and spread of abortion in the world. In this sense abortion goes beyond the responsibility of individuals and beyond the harm done to them, and takes on a distinctly social dimension. It is a most serious wound inflicted on society and its culture by the very people who ought to be society's promoters and defenders.

...

Christian Tradition - as the Declaration issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith points out so well -is clear and unanimous, from the beginning up to our own day, in describing abortion as a particularly grave moral disorder. From its first contacts with the Greco-Roman world, where abortion and infanticide were widely practiced, the first Christian community, by its teaching and practice, radically opposed the customs rampant in that society, as is clearly shown by the Didache mentioned earlier.

...

The more recent Papal Magisterium has vigorously reaffirmed this common doctrine. Pius XI in particular, in his Encyclical Casti Connubii, rejected the specious justifications of abortion. Pius XII excluded all direct abortion, i.e., every act tending directly to destroy human life in the womb "whether such destruction is intended as an end or only as a means to an end". John XXIII reaffirmed that human life is sacred because "from its very beginning it directly involves God's creative activity". The Second Vatican Council, as mentioned earlier, sternly condemned abortion: "From the moment of its conception life must be guarded with the greatest care, while abortion and infanticide are unspeakable crimes".

The Church's canonical discipline, from the earliest centuries, has inflicted penal sanctions on those guilty of abortion. This practice, with more or less severe penalties, has been confirmed in various periods of history. The 1917 Code of Canon Law punished abortion with excommunication. The revised canonical legislation continues this tradition when it decrees that "a person who actually procures an abortion incurs automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication". The excommunication affects all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and thus includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed. By this reiterated sanction, the Church makes clear that abortion is a most serious and dangerous crime, thereby encouraging those who commit it to seek without delay the path of conversion. In the Church the purpose of the penalty of excommunication is to make an individual fully aware of the gravity of a certain sin and then to foster genuine conversion and repentance.

Given such unanimity in the doctrinal and disciplinary tradition of the Church, Paul VI was able to declare that this tradition is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church.


...

The legal toleration of abortion or of euthanasia can in no way claim to be based on respect for the conscience of others, precisely because society has the right and the duty to protect itself against the abuses which can occur in the name of conscience and under the pretext of freedom.

...

...laws which legitimize the direct killing of innocent human beings through abortion or euthanasia are in complete opposition to the inviolable right to life proper to every individual...Laws which authorize and promote abortion and euthanasia are therefore radically opposed not only to the good of the individual but also to the common good...

...

Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize

...

Particular attention should be drawn to the seriousness of abortion and euthanasia, without neglecting other aspects of life which from time to time deserve to be given careful consideration, as occasion and circumstances demand.

...

Absolute respect for every innocent human life also requires the exercise of conscientious objection in relation to procured abortion and euthanasia.
Evangelium Vitae

The Church is anti-abortion, radically opposed to abortion, and has always been. It is necessary that the Church be anti-abortion in order to not be hypocritical in her support of life and love of others.
Quo Vadis?
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PabloSerna said:

When did this become a progressive vs "insert name" movement?

It is about the bigger picture and that is what Bishop Vasquez and the USCCB Respect Life ministry is emphasizing. Is it import to understand that? Maybe not. At least know that they are not playing politics with it, they are staying true to the message of the gospel.




This is the seamless garment tripe I'm talking about. All traditional Catholic beliefs are part of a "bigger picture" and shouldn't be focused on; and all new cutting edge heresies are burgeoning revelations that need to have their own particular synod and Vatican approved council to study.
747Ag
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Quo Vadis? said:

PabloSerna said:

When did this become a progressive vs "insert name" movement?

It is about the bigger picture and that is what Bishop Vasquez and the USCCB Respect Life ministry is emphasizing. Is it import to understand that? Maybe not. At least know that they are not playing politics with it, they are staying true to the message of the gospel.




This is the seamless garment tripe I'm talking about. All traditional Catholic beliefs are part of a "bigger picture" and shouldn't be focused on; and all new cutting edge heresies are burgeoning revelations that need to have their own particular synod and Vatican approved council to study.

Nota Bene: The seamless garment theory is attributed to the late Cardinal Bernardin. It should also be known that he's been credibly accused of sexual abuse and satanism (the words of James Grein who is known to have brought down Uncle Ted McCarrick). It's an interesting juxtaposition... satanism and the seamless garment. Are not satan's lies typically slight twists to the truth rather than bald-faced untruths? Like in Genesis with Eve?
PabloSerna
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The Banned said:

PabloSerna said:

Zobel said:

It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
Those are your words.

Our church is trying to "build a culture of life from womb to tomb" - USCCB Respect Life ministries.







And here is where you lose me. Are you saying the Church is not anti-abortion?
"We can't just simply say we're against abortion. No, we're pro-life. We're pro-child. And we're pro-woman." - Bishop Joe S. Vsquez
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna
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AG
They are not JUST anti-abortion -those are your words.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
The Banned
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PabloSerna said:

The Banned said:

PabloSerna said:

Zobel said:

It's not wordplay on my part. The equivalent here would be someone saying "it's not that I'm anti-murder, it's more that I'm pro-life." It's absurd that we even need to deal with this.

Abortion is a great evil and the Church has always taught against it. The Church is anti-abortion. There's no need to equivocate.
Those are your words.

Our church is trying to "build a culture of life from womb to tomb" - USCCB Respect Life ministries.







And here is where you lose me. Are you saying the Church is not anti-abortion?
"We can't just simply say we're against abortion. No, we're pro-life. We're pro-child. And we're pro-woman." - Bishop Joe S. Vsquez



Intentionally not answering again. You know that being pro-life inherently means anti-abortion. It's a necessary piece of the pro-life movement. It seems like you're the one playing word games here.
dermdoc
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We are on the same side here.

Any tactic that decreases abortion is okay with me.
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PabloSerna
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If the devil has done anything, it is on full display right now. We are twisting words to give them a meaning they didn't have before. Zobel is reaching into encyclicals to win a point.

OK, friends- I will bow out now. I think I have said enough.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
PabloSerna
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AG
I did answer. Just quoted someone.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
ramblin_ag02
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It's not politically toxic to say "anti-abortion". Both sides of the issue are at least somewhat "anti-abortion", in that no one thinks abortion is awesome and should be encouraged. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone genuinely "pro-abortion"

The politicized terms are pro-life and pro-choice, and each group tries to paint the other as anti-life or anti-choice.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Quo Vadis?
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ramblin_ag02 said:

It's not politically toxic to say "anti-abortion". Both sides of the issue are at least somewhat "anti-abortion", in that no one thinks abortion is awesome and should be encouraged. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone genuinely "pro-abortion"

The politicized terms are pro-life and pro-choice, and each group tries to paint the other as anti-life or anti-choice.


I wouldnt have disagreed with you 10 years ago doc, but there is a non zero portion of the left that thinks abortion is great. I would bet they make up around 10-15% of the pro-choice movement. Full on abortion revelers and celebrators.


see them every year at the March for life in Austin. They show us their papers from their abortions and say they're going out to have sex and get another one just for us. Some counter protestors have the number of abortions they've gotten like a jersey number on their shirt.
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