Quo Vadis? said:

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747Ag said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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NoahAg said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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NoahAg said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..

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Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.

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If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.

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B/c that's how babies get born.

Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.

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You certainly can. If someone if telling you that you have to go through the Virgin Mary please let me know and I will set them straight. My question is; why wouldn't you want her praying for you?

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Further, it's a both/and for us... not either/or.

An imperfect analogy:

• Prayer is like current through resistors
• My prayer is connecting me ground to the source (God). It's 1 kOhm resistor.
• I place in parallel Our Lady's prayers (by asking)... it's 1 Ohm resistor. (It's lower since She is more righteous than me. And we know the prayer of the righteous availeth much, and in this case more current).
• Still directly connected to the Almighty... but the equivalent resistance is now less. Parallel paths.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the ELEN201 lesson. But really I'm not.

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Physics is your friend.

Quo Vadis? said:

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But that raises a question doesn't it, why are the saints in heaven praying for people in revelation? The prayers that are rising like incense to the throne of heaven?

Also, Job 5:1 seems a pretty direct reference that asking for angelic/saintly intercession is commonplace.

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That question doesn't logically follow though.

Each week, I'm sure your Church, like my Church prays for the leaders of your church, state, country, etc.

That we pray for them, does not mean that:

1. Those leaders heard those prayers directly
2. That we are praying for them because they specifically asked us to.

We have no reason to believe that the Saints in heaven can hear our specific prayers.

So that they pray in general for the church is materially different than a saint hearing a specific prayer request and offering a specific prayer. We have no examples of it.

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I don't see how Job 5:1 supports it when the point from Eliphaz seems to be that Job should have sought God i.e. Job 5:8.

AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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But that raises a question doesn't it, why are the saints in heaven praying for people in revelation? The prayers that are rising like incense to the throne of heaven?

Also, Job 5:1 seems a pretty direct reference that asking for angelic/saintly intercession is commonplace.

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That question doesn't logically follow though.

Each week, I'm sure your Church, like my Church prays for the leaders of your church, state, country, etc.

That we pray for them, does not mean that:

1. Those leaders heard those prayers directly
2. That we are praying for them because they specifically asked us to.

We have no reason to believe that the Saints in heaven can hear our specific prayers.

So that they pray in general for the church is materially different than a saint hearing a specific prayer request and offering a specific prayer. We have no examples of it.

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I don't see how Job 5:1 supports it when the point from Eliphaz seems to be that Job should have sought God i.e. Job 5:8.

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Just so I am clear. You think the prayers rising to heaven are random prayers from the saints in heaven, who have no knowledge of anything outside of heaven?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

I guess two things. 1. Why even pray to her at all since you can pray to Jesus. That question still remains. 2. Where in scripture is she sitting next to the throne of God?

I'll definitely check out that queen lineage aspect. Very intriguing thank you.

In regards to answer my first question. You didn't answer it at all. Why pray to Jesus when you can add praying to Mary doesn't answer why prays to pray Mary when you can pray directly to Jesus. It's a weird circular reasoning. What benefit does praying to Mary provide vs praying to Jesus?

On a quick read I see a few women mentioned in the lineage who are also in the OT but none of the other mothers. What am I missing? Are there other references that make the claim that the mothered ruled with the Kings and have more than three women?

Reading in Kings I see the parallels trying to be made with Solomon in chapter 2. His mother is given authority. He asks the King on someone's behalf etc.

But Solomon doesn't listen to her

In regards to the women in revelation it can easily be the Israelites as a whole birthing Jesus. Not just Mary. Because without the 12 tribes, prophets, kings etc there would be no law and no foreshadowing or prophecy of Jesus. And we see that with the crown of twelve stars which we see the 12 disciples throned with Jesus.

Matthew 19:28 (ESV): 28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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On a quick read I see a few women mentioned in the lineage who are also in the OT but none of the other mothers. What am I missing? Are there other references that make the claim that the mothered ruled with the Kings and have more than three women?

Reading in Kings I see the parallels trying to be made with Solomon in chapter 2. His mother is given authority. He asks the King on someone's behalf etc.

But Solomon doesn't listen to her

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Solomon had already told Adonijah that he would not put him to death if Adobijah showed himself to be a worthy man. Adonijah could not longer make the request himself and therefore Adonijah attempted to use the Queen Mother's influence to achieve his deceitful purpose. Solomon's mother did not know what Adonijah was going to request of her when she promised to speak to the King on his behalf. Solomon, being wise, saw through everything and understood what was going on. It was not the Queen Mother's desire he refused.

We see time and time and time again that the Davidic Kings were identified with their Queen mothers and how long they reigned.


eta: Mary is our Queen mother and her reign is eternal because of who her son is. Even Elizabeth understood this when she greeted Mary as the Mother of our Lord while John the Baptist leapt for joy in her womb at the sound of MARY's voice.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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In regards to the women in revelation it can easily be the Israelites as a whole birthing Jesus. Not just Mary. Because without the 12 tribes, prophets, kings etc there would be no law and no foreshadowing or prophecy of Jesus. And we see that with the crown of twelve stars which we see the 12 disciples throned with Jesus.

Matthew 19:28 (ESV): 28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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John used imagery that holds multiple meanings for sure, and we are not denying or excluding their applications. However, in Revelation the Arc is seen in heaven and she is the Woman wearing the crown representing she is Queen. The Woman gives birth to a male child (Jesus) while the dragon (Satan) is waiting to devour her offspring (Jesus). A singular woman gives birth to a singular son who would fight a singular dragon. The singular mother is Mary.

Yes, the Woman also represents the church and Israel with her crown of 12 Stars. Like Rachel to the OT people, Mary is to the NT church. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and therefore Mary is the Mother of the Church. There is no conflict. We are her offspring too.


ETA: Yes the 12 sit on thrones before the King. And Mary sits on her throne at his right hand.

Ah ok I missed that part of the story. But doesn't it kind of teach the opposite then? The queen is ignorant of certain things and the King is still the one with authority making the decisions despite his mothers request?

I think it's tough to make it a single interpretation. It could be Eve, Sarah, Rebecca etc. but sake of argument let's say it's 100% Mary. It doesn't include anything about sitting on a throne with Jesus. The woman has to go into the wilderness. How is that fulfilled by Mary?

And even IF she does it still doesn't answer my original question. Why pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus? The only answer I've gotten is "why wouldn't you!" Which isn't an answer. What's the benefit. You have Jesus. Interceding on our behalf. Why not seek His intercession?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Ah ok I missed that part of the story. But doesn't it kind of teach the opposite then? The queen is ignorant of certain things and the King is still the one with authority making the decisions despite his mother's request?

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Not really for a couple of reasons.

1) with Biblical Typology we do not expect a 100% correlation between the OT type and the NT fulfillment. Think of the OT as the shadow and the NT as the shadow maker. The NT fulfillment is always greater than the OT type.

2). Mary is perfectly and always aligned with the will and plan of God because of God's special grace given to his Mother. This is evidenced at the wedding in Cana. In the case of Solomon, he had already declared his will and intention for Adonijah. It was Adonijah who was at fault and trying to game the system, and therefore the Queen mother's request was not truly the desire of the Queen. She had given her word to speak with the King and she was true to her word, but the request was not from her heart but only her lips. This is shown by Solomon honoring her and elevating her to the throne.

Jesus is the authority, not Mary. Mary is the advocate and intercessor on our behalf, but Mary is perfectly one with the will of her son.

I agree with 1. But because of that who is to say having a Kings mom a throne is nothing more than descriptive. You're taking one part of the story and applying it to the future or heavenly realm but leaving out another part. Where's the line? This happens amongst so much theology across so many systems. Pulling this leaving that etc.


Roman's 8:34 says Jesus is interceding. Where's the verse saying Mary is? And again since we KNOW from the plain reading is scripture that Jesus is interceding on our behalf why not seek Him.

Another thought in this whole throne thing. God doesn't die like David giving the throne to his son. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. So Jesus is sharing the throne with God. Not Mary with Jesus. Which is why we see Jesus as our intercessor.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I'll definitely check out that queen lineage aspect. Very intriguing thank you.

In regards to answer my first question. You didn't answer it at all. Why pray to Jesus when you can add praying to Mary doesn't answer why prays to pray Mary when you can pray directly to Jesus. It's a weird circular reasoning. What benefit does praying to Mary provide vs praying to Jesus?

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My apologies if my reasoning seems circular to you.
In the simplest terms 2 is greater than 1.
If you pray to Jesus alone, which is not bad nor discouraged at all it's one prayer.
If you pray to Mary to ask her to pray to Jesus for you and with you, you have at the very least doubled your prayer.
As I have tried to explain, because of who Mary is and her own personal relationship to the Lord as well as her own personal righteousness, which far outweighs any other, she ads her, gravity, holiness and merit to your prayer, so yes it does multiply it and honestly purify it. So why pray to Mary, because it works, it always has and always will. There is almost 1900 year track record of it.

Now what I am afraid you have been asking for is proof of what you accuse of us of, which is placing Mary above Christ or even placing her as an equal or that we gain some special grace or knowledge by having devotion to her. That is not the case nor would it.

One thing I would offer is when reading the gospel of John remember when he calls himself the beloved disciple, it is not only a act of humility, but also an invitation for you, a beloved discipled to place yourself there. So when on the cross the Lord told you behold your Mother and to Mary behold your son.

I'm just looking for a simple explanation as to the benefits of including Mary when I have Jesus in contrast. The explanations just seem to be a lot of she's this or that and so include her. But there's a lot of words and little substance. I have scripture showing Jesus sits at the right of God, has authority and is interceding on our behalf and I have direct access to Him and that He is always with me.

In my brain it makes no sense to add any other heavenly being to beseech. Maybe it's not meant for me or beyond my cognitive abilities.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I think it's tough to make it a single interpretation. It could be Eve, Sarah, Rebecca etc. but sake of argument let's say it's 100% Mary. It doesn't include anything about sitting on a throne with Jesus. The woman has to go into the wilderness. How is that fulfilled by Mary?

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Again, we are not looking for 100% literalism in the allegorical writings of Revelation where imagery is used to draw on multiple things. However, if you accept that the male child being born with an iron rod who is to rule over all the nations is Jesus; and you accept that the one dragon standing in front of the woman to devour her child is Satan; it does not follow that the woman would be anyone other than Mary.

Mary became the Queen Mother at the moment the Holy Ghost overshadowed her and Jesus was conceived in her womb. She was crowned in that moment, and the woman wearing the crown is pregnant. It is obvious that a Queen would have a throne, especially because we know the King has one and gives thrones to others as well.

As far as the wilderness part goes I think it could be several things but this is my conjecture: Mary spends a long time on earth after giving birth to Jesus and remains on earth after his resurrection (call it 40 years?). Would that remind you of anything? I have no idea if this is anything that the church fathers would have said but it would seem a plausible fulfillment to me.

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And even IF she does it still doesn't answer my original question. Why pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus? The only answer I've gotten is "why wouldn't you!" Which isn't an answer. What's the benefit. You have Jesus. Interceding on our behalf. Why not seek His intercession?

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we absolutely do pray directly to Jesus and seek his intercession. In addition, when we reflect on the life and love of Mary, we are drawn in more fully to her son, Jesus. Her human nature is something we can identify and relate to completely, and we all have mothers which helps make this even more powerful in our understanding. We cannot relate to Jesus fully because while he became man, we cannot grasp or relate to his Divinity. The benefit is that we are drawn closer to the love God has poured out on humanity, so much so that he became one of us through his mother. To ignore Mary is to ignore the mother of our Lord and Savior. Jesus showed love and honor at all times for his beloved mother, and our failure to do the same is disrespectful to God IMO.

Im not trying have them be competing but maybe it's deriving from my understanding of Jesus. I don't view Him as the best of all but view Him as supreme over all. In other words He's not the best option He's the only option. So in mathematical terms he's not an integer that is extremely high but can be added to. He's infinity. So where as if you take 10 and add 1 you get 11. A demonstrably higher number everytime.

If I take infinity and add 1 I still have infinity. So why do the math?

If I have access to the eternal all supreme authority over everything and everyone who is also interceding on my behalf to the Father it's infinity. There's not only nothing greater He is succinctly greatest in and of itself. So adding to Him seems fruitless.

But again maybe it's not for me. Maybe as the reformed say I'm "not enlightened yet" haha

God Bless you too brother, Hope you have a wonderful day!

Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

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Yes. What are the saints praying for? Do they have any knowledge of what needs praying for or are they just making random prayers?

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The saints pray for the Church, just as we all do.

By this logic you should never ask anyone to pray for you.

jrico2727 said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Im not trying have them be competing but maybe it's deriving from my understanding of Jesus. I don't view Him as the best of all but view Him as supreme over all. In other words He's not the best option He's the only option. So in mathematical terms he's not an integer that is extremely high but can be added to. He's infinity. So where as if you take 10 and add 1 you get 11. A demonstrably higher number everytime.

If I take infinity and add 1 I still have infinity. So why do the math?

If I have access to the eternal all supreme authority over everything and everyone who is also interceding on my behalf to the Father it's infinity. There's not only nothing greater He is succinctly greatest in and of itself. So adding to Him seems fruitless.

But again maybe it's not for me. Maybe as the reformed say I'm "not enlightened yet" haha

God Bless you too brother, Hope you have a wonderful day!

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I love it! And Jesus is Infinity!

I would say we are not trying to add to him we cannot.

I am trying to add to myself, who is deficient, who does lack perfection. I am not asking for Mary to add to the response or to change the answer to my prayer but to add her merit and goodness to my prayer and supplication to make it more pleasing before the infinite goodness of Christ.

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Ahhh I get it now. It's not based on who is being asked but who is doing the asking. I get the train of thought and the logic. I'm going to think about it more in this light

Well no. There are many benefits and purposes to ask people here on earth to pray for you that isn't the case with heavenly residents.

1. They are equally on their own faith journey and their exposure to your needs can humble or edify tbem.
2. They get to see the work of God in your life they wouldn't have otherwised
3. It gives them an opportunity to add discipleship or rebuke or council
4. It deepens the relationship between the two
5. It can bring to light issues in their own life they were unaware of

I thibk there's a lot to learn from church history etc. Truth is not only within the pages of the Bible. However I thibk there's a cautionary tale of attributing too much authority to religious sects. Jesus main opposition was the religious establishment He came to save.
The teachings and traditions of men often rebuked by God.

So Yes I think it's wise to have any doctrine soundly and fully found and supported within scripture.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Well no. There are many benefits and purposes to ask people here on earth to pray for you that isn't the case with heavenly residents.

1. They are equally on their own faith journey and their exposure to your needs can humble or edify tbem.
2. They get to see the work of God in your life they wouldn't have otherwised
3. It gives them an opportunity to add discipleship or rebuke or council
4. It deepens the relationship between the two
5. It can bring to light issues in their own life they were unaware of

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This gets downplayed a lot, but yes God does not want us working out our faith on our own.

Looking at the two historic sacraments, Baptism and the Lord's Supper were never meant to be done by ourselves.

God wanted us in community, Many of His Commandments were about how we honor God by honoring our neighbor.

To try and translate that to somehow a saint in heaven is hearing individual prayers doesn't work.

Let me rephrase then. By this logic you derive no benefit from asking others to pray for you vs praying to Jesus.

But yes, as you said above - who is doing the asking matters, as St James points out.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I thibk there's a lot to learn from church history etc. Truth is not only within the pages of the Bible. However I thibk there's a cautionary tale of attributing too much authority to religious sects. Jesus main opposition was the religious establishment He came to save.
The teachings and traditions of men often rebuked by God.

So Yes I think it's wise to have any doctrine soundly and fully found and supported within scripture.

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please recognize what you are doing here. You are discounting and rejecting 2,000 years of consistent and continuous belief held by Christians universally, and you are using your own personal interpretation (or that of your tradition/religious sect) to justify your view. The cautionary tale applies to you I'm afraid, because your position is the one that is novel and did not arise until post reformation.

We have shown you - from the Scriptures - where the support for our beliefs can be found. These beliefs are documented and traced throughout Christian history as evidenced in the liturgy and Sacred Traditions of the Church in both East and West. However, because we have a different interpretation from yours you reject our view and attempt to compare our beliefs to those of the Pharisees. The cautionary tale is yours my friend. The question is not one of "what Scripture says", but rather "who is rightly interpreting what Scripture means by what the text says."

If your personal interpretation and/or "sect" places you outside of what the Church has believed for 1500+ years and still believes and teaches today, I would encourage you to take a step back and revisit the subject with fresh eyes. The lens you are currently using might be clouding your understanding.

AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

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Yes. What are the saints praying for? Do they have any knowledge of what needs praying for or are they just making random prayers?

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The saints pray for the Church, just as we all do.

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Just in general. "Bless the church lord" over and over again? Do you believe in Demons? Do they know what humans are doing on earth?