dermdoc said:For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses. I am very leery of any theology that has to add words to make their theology work.AgLiving06 said:
I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.
That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.
However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.
The balance that Lutherans find is to say that
Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.
I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.
Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.
I know that's your position, but universalism (which is what your argument boils down to), just doesn't have any support historically, nor does it have scriptural support. I'd actually say you make the same mistakes at Calvinists in incorrectly interpreting Scripture by changing the meaning of words or just outright ignoring Scripture.
Yes Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved, but that He desires something, does not mean He imposes His will on us to that level. Simple example...God desires we follow His commandments...yet we don't. He could simply impose His will on us and make it so, but he doesn't. He gives man free will (in a sense) to either believe or not.