Opinions about the Pope - bearing false witness.
Directly accusing someone of pining for Satan - a-ok
Directly accusing someone of pining for Satan - a-ok
The SSPX is about to get a whole lot bigger
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Last: 4 mo ago by Sea Speed
Havent you constantly tried to fit the square peg that is homosexuality and transexuality in to the round hole that is Christianity? I've read enough of this board to have learned that you try to fit your faith around your personal beliefs instead of the other way around.
"The universal call to holiness is closely linked to the universal call to mission. Every member of the faithful is called to holiness and to mission. This was the earnest desire of the Council, which hoped to be able "to enlighten all people with the brightness of Christ, which gleams over the face of the Church, by preaching the Gospel to every creature." 175 The Church's missionary spirituality is a journey toward holiness."
(Redemptoris Misso, 1990, Pope John Paul II)
(Redemptoris Misso, 1990, Pope John Paul II)
Yes and Yes- sadly.
I quoted the Pope's words. We all know what Jesus said about a divided house. So, yes.
I quoted the Pope's words. We all know what Jesus said about a divided house. So, yes.
PabloSerna said:
His words are abundant on this topic. Why do you feel the need to ignore them and fabricate your own lie?
"The number of groups of 'restorers'for example, in the United States there are manyis significant," Francis told the editors, according to excerpts published by the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica. "Restorationism has come to gag the council," he said, adding that he knew some priests for whom the 16th century Council of Trent was more memorable than the 20th century Vatican II.
Pope Francis said he implemented one of the changes of Traditionis custodes, the 2021 motu proprio restricting the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass, because the allowances granted by his predecessors were "being used in an ideological way."
During the question and answer session, Pope Francis said he was concerned about a "reaction against the modern," or what he calls in Italian "indietrismo," which translates in English to "backwardness."
"It is a nostalgic disease," he said, explaining that this is the reason why he made it necessary for priests ordained after July 16, 2021, to seek authorization from their bishop and the Holy See to offer Mass according to the 1962, pre-Vatican II liturgical books, what is commonly referred to as the Latin Mass.
Yeah, let me know when I can post the address for you to send your apology letter for your accusation of false witness.
1. Much has been written about the Catholic understanding of human sexuality. It is a fact that you can be homosexual and be Catholic. It is a fact that you can be trans and Catholic. So no need to fit any square pegs.Sea Speed said:
Havent you constantly tried to fit the square peg that is homosexuality and transexuality in to the round hole that is Christianity? I've read enough of this board to have learned that you try to fit your faith around your personal beliefs instead of the other way around.
2. When you say that I "try to fit" my "faith around" my "personal beliefs" - it more of a back and forth exercise. I am grateful that I "know and hear his voice" as the scripture says. So when something comes up, I pray and ask. Pretty simple.
Do you think for a moment I was unaware of that exchange? You can believe what you want. However it remains your belief. He wrote exactly why he did what he did in an Apostolic Letter none the less. What he says in an airplane is more often taken out of context. It is about getting on the same page.
ETA: "nostalgic" is the key word you should take away from that exchange.
ETA: "nostalgic" is the key word you should take away from that exchange.
Sea Speed said:
Thanks to you and Aggie tony.
How do you see this playing out and what percentage of the church do you see as traditional vs progressive? Same question about the church in texas, specifically.
I see this playing out with the Pope doing what he seems to do best which is hammer the conservatives without completely killing them and placating the liberals without doing anything official. I believe the TLM will likely be restricted to the Ecclesia Dei communities and outlawed everywhere else.
To church makeup I would say that the traditionalists are probably 5% of self professed Catholics, but as much as a quarter or so of those that attend Mass every week, monthly confession, etc etc. The hardcore progs probably make up around 10% but there is a lot larger number of "prog-leaning" or "prog-aligned" parishioners (Pablo would be a great example), maybe as much as 1/3 or so; so if I had to guess:
traditional : 5%
traditional leaning: 10%
just going to mass people: 45%
progressive leaning: 30%
progressive: 10%
Texas is probably about the same at the poles but with more traditional leaning and less prog leaning than avg
PabloSerna said:
"The universal call to holiness is closely linked to the universal call to mission. Every member of the faithful is called to holiness and to mission. This was the earnest desire of the Council, which hoped to be able "to enlighten all people with the brightness of Christ, which gleams over the face of the Church, by preaching the Gospel to every creature." 175 The Church's missionary spirituality is a journey toward holiness."
(Redemptoris Misso, 1990, Pope John Paul II)
Thank you. So in other words, salus animarum suprema lex. That is, the salvation of souls is the supreme law. This is made manifest personally in our call to holiness. This is also made manifest in our relationship with others by being missionary and sharing the Gospel.
I caution against pitting these against each other, and I am not saying that is your intention. Some people might very well be doing so. However, the manner in which we pray is part of the call to holiness, and this extends to the Mass, in its form and in its manner of celebration or reverence. Some people find a fuller expression of the Faith in the prayers of the older Mass. Some people are better able to enter into the sacred mysteries in the old Mass. Some likewise in the new Mass. Even as Aggietony mentioned his initial attraction was based in aesthetics, I would characterize him as a Catholic that better enters into the Mass celebrated in the old Rite. My story is similar. Priests often say similar things, especially in light the prayers at the foot of the altar (Judica me Deus... Psalm 42 (43), depending on your Bible).
Yet, we're not divorced from the mission side of things. Both the spiritual and corporal works of mercy are part of our extra-liturgical lives. We live in the same culture. We work among the heathens as well as those working out their salvation in fear and trembling. Perhaps gently correcting those who take the Lord's name in vain. Or by sharing the joys of our counter-cultural, large families and our faith as the opportunity arises. Or by by volunteering at the Saint Vincent de Paul pantry. Or organizing baby supply drives for local pregnancy centers. Or sharing various devotional materials with parishioners.
It's ultimately a both/and. Previous campus minister at Saint Mary's (A&M) Monica Ashour used to call these sort of things the Catholic Ands. So perhaps the litugy is a bit of a hobby horse for us. It is only because we believe how we pray is important. And we take that nourishment to fuel our particular missions.
Salus Animarum Suprema Lex
God revealed himself to be the the great I am. The God of being. One that is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
Throughout history and too many in the Body of Christ now promote a God of becoming. One that reveals himself, or herself, differently in each age. Don't mind the contradictions. It's ok to be in a constant state aggiornamento, we're a synodal Church now. All we need to do is sit back with the modernists and wait for the "Cosmic Christ". Just focus on the Omega and forget the Alpha, unless you want to be backward and rigid.
Throughout history and too many in the Body of Christ now promote a God of becoming. One that reveals himself, or herself, differently in each age. Don't mind the contradictions. It's ok to be in a constant state aggiornamento, we're a synodal Church now. All we need to do is sit back with the modernists and wait for the "Cosmic Christ". Just focus on the Omega and forget the Alpha, unless you want to be backward and rigid.
PabloSerna said:
AggieTony did a horrible job and you continue to pine for Satan by labeling Catholics as "trads" and "progressives" - there are neither. You need to stop trying to divide the Church.
Here is what the Pope actually wrote, "At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion." (Apostolic Letter issued Motu Proprio)
Its about getting on the same page and focusing on the mission, not the liturgy. Is liturgy important, yes, but not if it leads one to judge the heart of a parish based on the placement of the tabernacle, the quality of the music, or the layout of the nave. Jesus own words about the temple in Jerusalem should make all of that clear.
This is very unhinged. And there absolutely are different leanings within the Catholic Church. To say that myself and Fr James Martin are Catholic is the truth, it's also the truth to say that he is progressive and I am traditional. The Holy Father himself refers to liberals and traditionalists in the Church. Humorously enough he once quipped "bishops in the United States must not be left-wing, and by left wing, I mean homosexual"
I don't need to recite the Latin again Pablo, but Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. How we worship, determines what we believe, determines how we live. All the things you mentioned above are important. The first rule of the Church is to save souls. The rest are acts of charity which are very important. We are not the Red Cross
In my experience, progressive Catholics don't frequently attend Mass. They talk a lot , but don't show up.
Sea Speed said:
Havent you constantly tried to fit the square peg that is homosexuality and transexuality in to the round hole that is Christianity? I've read enough of this board to have learned that you try to fit your faith around your personal beliefs instead of the other way around.
One thing that I would say, and I am biased is that on the traditional side, Catholicism becomes our entirety and dominates our view on everything. We align all of our political sociopolitical opinions on Church teaching, we tend to only hang out with other Catholics, we have a crucifix, a miraculous medal and a scapular on, and we end up pissing off both Democrats and Republicans because both think we're on their side half the time and we're not. Our religious wear ornate habits and traditional vestments, and can be seen from a mile away.
On the prog side, every single person is a political liberal. They fit their view of the church into their liberal outlook on life. Everything progressive the Church says is engraved in stone, everything traditional the church says is nuanced and subject to modern interpretation and an artifact of the "old patriarchal church". They're very hostile to ANYTHING that might have a whiff of conservatism; and when confronted with bald faced heresies and abuses from the left they won't bat an eye. Their religious look angry librarians.
This is not an over exaggeration
747Ag said:PabloSerna said:
"The universal call to holiness is closely linked to the universal call to mission. Every member of the faithful is called to holiness and to mission. This was the earnest desire of the Council, which hoped to be able "to enlighten all people with the brightness of Christ, which gleams over the face of the Church, by preaching the Gospel to every creature." 175 The Church's missionary spirituality is a journey toward holiness."
(Redemptoris Misso, 1990, Pope John Paul II)
Thank you. So in other words, salus animarum suprema lex. That is, the salvation of souls is the supreme law. This is made manifest personally in our call to holiness. This is also made manifest in our relationship with others by being missionary and sharing the Gospel.
I caution against pitting these against each other, and I am not saying that is your intention. Some people might very well be doing so. However, the manner in which we pray is part of the call to holiness, and this extends to the Mass, in its form and in its manner of celebration or reverence. Some people find a fuller expression of the Faith in the prayers of the older Mass. Some people are better able to enter into the sacred mysteries in the old Mass. Some likewise in the new Mass. Even as Aggietony mentioned his initial attraction was based in aesthetics, I would characterize him as a Catholic that better enters into the Mass celebrated in the old Rite. My story is similar. Priests often say similar things, especially in light the prayers at the foot of the altar (Judica me Deus... Psalm 42 (43), depending on your Bible).
Yet, we're not divorced from the mission side of things. Both the spiritual and corporal works of mercy are part of our extra-liturgical lives. We live in the same culture. We work among the heathens as well as those working out their salvation in fear and trembling. Perhaps gently correcting those who take the Lord's name in vain. Or by sharing the joys of our counter-cultural, large families and our faith as the opportunity arises. Or by by volunteering at the Saint Vincent de Paul pantry. Or organizing baby supply drives for local pregnancy centers. Or sharing various devotional materials with parishioners.
It's ultimately a both/and. Previous campus minister at Saint Mary's (A&M) Monica Ashour used to call these sort of things the Catholic Ands. So perhaps the litugy is a bit of a hobby horse for us. It is only because we believe how we pray is important. And we take that nourishment to fuel our particular missions.
Salus Animarum Suprema Lex
Another point on aesthetics... Isn't it Bishop Baron that is known for the strategy of leading with beauty? The criticism is smells and bells. Yet my story as well as Aggietony's show that while beauty is what led us to this point, more than beauty has drawn us deeper into the Faith.
And there you have it.hockeyag said:
In my experience, progressive Catholics don't frequently attend Mass. They talk a lot , but don't show up.
PabloSerna said:And there you have it.hockeyag said:
In my experience, progressive Catholics don't frequently attend Mass. They talk a lot , but don't show up.
Pablo you have this weird penchant that borders on fetishistic to discount people's lived experience and pretend like they're stating their opinions are fact.
The man said "in my experience"
Quote:
It is a fact that you can be homosexual and be Catholic. It is a fact that you can be trans and Catholic.
Depending on what is entailed by being homosexual or trans this may or may not be true.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals. And such were some of you."
Being -yes
Living an immoral life -no*
*trying to live a moral life and failing -God's call
Living an immoral life -no*
*trying to live a moral life and failing -God's call
I put the funny face on it- So I did see it the same. That's like saying "I have 2 black friends" and somehow you are an expert on race relations in America.
God's call either way.
I reject that any one of the sins enumerated on St Paul's list are things one can be without action.
I reject that any one of the sins enumerated on St Paul's list are things one can be without action.
"Beauty is the splendor of truth" -Antoni Gaudi, Spanish architect (1852-1926)
I am a huge Gaudi fan. Not just because I am an architect, but because his understanding of structure, color, texture, and nature were fused into a built vision that transcended one into the glory of God. I agree with you and Bishop Barron that beauty can attract if the aim is God. Bishop Barron wrote an article about this very aspect when he talked about one of his favorite buildings in LA.
But here is the cautionary advice Our Lord gave us (Mk 13:1-2, RSV)
1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" 2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."
So to me, I take the words of Christ to mean that we are not to be so impressed with what we can build, or sing, or create, as the end of our spiritual journey. It is great that we can offer up our lives, like Gaudi did, to God and create a transcendent work, the splendor, some say the "glitter" that testifies to the truth of God. God put that on his heart no doubt. God also gave Saint Francis a vision of re-building the Church that had less to do with physical beauty and more to do with the poverty of spirit.
I am a huge Gaudi fan. Not just because I am an architect, but because his understanding of structure, color, texture, and nature were fused into a built vision that transcended one into the glory of God. I agree with you and Bishop Barron that beauty can attract if the aim is God. Bishop Barron wrote an article about this very aspect when he talked about one of his favorite buildings in LA.
But here is the cautionary advice Our Lord gave us (Mk 13:1-2, RSV)
1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" 2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."
So to me, I take the words of Christ to mean that we are not to be so impressed with what we can build, or sing, or create, as the end of our spiritual journey. It is great that we can offer up our lives, like Gaudi did, to God and create a transcendent work, the splendor, some say the "glitter" that testifies to the truth of God. God put that on his heart no doubt. God also gave Saint Francis a vision of re-building the Church that had less to do with physical beauty and more to do with the poverty of spirit.
I know we are about to split hairs here- which translation are you quoting from?Zobel said:
God's call either way.
I reject that any one of the sins enumerated on St Paul's list are things one can be without action.
"While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are immoral, she does distinguish between engaging in homosexual acts and having a homosexual inclination." USCCB (LINK)
Just wanted to put that out there for the folks following along, I don't write what I cannot back up with doctrine. If I do, I will distinguish, "My belief..."
ETA: Even an English translation of the Septuagint has it written, "perform homosexual acts"
There is no verb in the Greek. All nouns.
Pornoi
Moichoi
Malakoi
Arsenokoitai
Read all the versions you like
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
So I don't disagree with you… but in all cases, inclination isn't the issue. People have inclination to adultery but that doesn't make you an adulterer. Why does inclination to homosexuality make you a homosexual? Only because people have wrongly made this an issue of identity, which is false. Our sexual proclivities don't define who we are - our person in Christ, our relationship to Christ does.
Pornoi
Moichoi
Malakoi
Arsenokoitai
Read all the versions you like
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
So I don't disagree with you… but in all cases, inclination isn't the issue. People have inclination to adultery but that doesn't make you an adulterer. Why does inclination to homosexuality make you a homosexual? Only because people have wrongly made this an issue of identity, which is false. Our sexual proclivities don't define who we are - our person in Christ, our relationship to Christ does.
No one is saying sin defines you but you.
I never said that. I said depending on what you mean by homosexual I may disagree. Youre the one trying to parse between people with inclination, people practicing homosexuality, and people practicing homosexuality but something something asterisk trying not to.
By what we've said here if you're not sinning you're not being anything on that list.
By what we've said here if you're not sinning you're not being anything on that list.
Pride Month ain't over yetPabloSerna said:
No one is saying sin defines you but you.
"The Church seeks to enable every person to live out the universal call to holiness. Persons with a homosexual inclination ought to receive every aid and encouragement to embrace this call personally and fully. This will unavoidably involve much struggle and self-mastery, for following Jesus always means following the way of the Cross...The Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance are essential sources of consolation and aid on this path."
- USCCB, Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination (2006), p. 13
+++
Would be interested to read what the Othodox doctrine has to say- or not say?
ETA: acknowledgement of our fallen nature, namely that we are sinners in need of salvation does not mean we are helpless against whatever cross we bear. I think you would agree, but do not want to extend this to persons who are same sex attracted.
As you may know the RCC is in the process of listening to the rest of the church and this particular struggle has been on the table. In October, the church will once again convene to conclude the Synod on Synodality. We shall hear more about this I am sure.
- USCCB, Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination (2006), p. 13
+++
Would be interested to read what the Othodox doctrine has to say- or not say?
ETA: acknowledgement of our fallen nature, namely that we are sinners in need of salvation does not mean we are helpless against whatever cross we bear. I think you would agree, but do not want to extend this to persons who are same sex attracted.
As you may know the RCC is in the process of listening to the rest of the church and this particular struggle has been on the table. In October, the church will once again convene to conclude the Synod on Synodality. We shall hear more about this I am sure.
"Why does inclination to homosexuality make you a homosexual?"
It is inclination toward immoral sexual acts to be clear.
It is inclination toward immoral sexual acts to be clear.
Well, on the bright side, we made it to page two until it devolved into a discussion of frociaggine.
PabloSerna said:
"Why does inclination to homosexuality make you a homosexual?"
It is inclination toward immoral sexual acts to be clear.
That's what zobel is saying, if I read correctly. If it's an immoral sex act, why does one depression of the desire for an immoral sex act determine someone's identity; and the other doesn't?
If I have a non-entertained desire to have an affair, but through an act of will, do not; I have committed no sin nor am I an adulterer.
Why is the same not true for people with homosexual urges?
+1
One is an orientation the other is an act of the will.
ETA: The difference that I think both of you are missing is that persons who have same sex attraction identify as homosexual. This orientation is not sinful. The church has chosen to characterize it (for now) as disordered. Because it does not square with the established understanding of sex as proper to marriage and family.
Another aspect of what I believe you are doing is to equate sex trafficking with being homosexual. I asked you for your translation because, from the sources I have read- those two words are connected to sex slaves common around the time of Jesus.
If you can understand that our sexual orientation is not sinful until we act upon it in a sinful way- meaning sex outside of marriage, then you may better understand what the US Conference of Catholic Bishops is writing about.
ETA: The difference that I think both of you are missing is that persons who have same sex attraction identify as homosexual. This orientation is not sinful. The church has chosen to characterize it (for now) as disordered. Because it does not square with the established understanding of sex as proper to marriage and family.
Another aspect of what I believe you are doing is to equate sex trafficking with being homosexual. I asked you for your translation because, from the sources I have read- those two words are connected to sex slaves common around the time of Jesus.
If you can understand that our sexual orientation is not sinful until we act upon it in a sinful way- meaning sex outside of marriage, then you may better understand what the US Conference of Catholic Bishops is writing about.
PabloSerna said:
One is an orientation the other is an act of the will.
Both are orientations and both are acts of will.
I hit the "post" button too soon. I wanted to add some context to what I believe you are saying and what the RCC is saying. Here we go…
Persons having same sex attraction are homosexual. You would think that should be obvious, but you have attempted to make this orientation sinful and the Church has written much that it is not. It is not comparable to adultery because that is understood as lust. Lust as you know is a vice.
"But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28)
Persons having same sex attraction are homosexual. You would think that should be obvious, but you have attempted to make this orientation sinful and the Church has written much that it is not. It is not comparable to adultery because that is understood as lust. Lust as you know is a vice.
"But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28)
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