Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.
I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.
Bob Lee said:
What are the chances FSSP is not an exception?
So, SSPX finally admits they truly are schismatic, something everyone else has known for decades?Serviam said:
Rorate Caeli, who had inside scoop on Traditiones Custodes is posting that the Vatican is set to ban the Traditional Latin Mass everywhere in the Roman Church, with the possible exception of ICKSP and FSSP (who without a Bishop are extremely vulnerable)
Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.
I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.
fc2112 said:So, SSPX finally admits they truly are schismatic, something everyone else has known for decades?Serviam said:
Rorate Caeli, who had inside scoop on Traditiones Custodes is posting that the Vatican is set to ban the Traditional Latin Mass everywhere in the Roman Church, with the possible exception of ICKSP and FSSP (who without a Bishop are extremely vulnerable)
Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.
I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.
ROME
— Catholic Arena (@CatholicArena) June 24, 2024
Pope Francis met with Gilles Wach today in the Vatican
Wach is the founder of the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest, which provides the Traditional Latin Mass to Catholics pic.twitter.com/XIsmiIxpTD
Woodshed?Serviam said:ROME
— Catholic Arena (@CatholicArena) June 24, 2024
Pope Francis met with Gilles Wach today in the Vatican
Wach is the founder of the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest, which provides the Traditional Latin Mass to Catholics pic.twitter.com/XIsmiIxpTD
Concerning
I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.AggieRain said:Woodshed?Serviam said:ROME
— Catholic Arena (@CatholicArena) June 24, 2024
Pope Francis met with Gilles Wach today in the Vatican
Wach is the founder of the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest, which provides the Traditional Latin Mass to Catholics pic.twitter.com/XIsmiIxpTD
Concerning
Serviam said:I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.AggieRain said:Woodshed?Serviam said:ROME
— Catholic Arena (@CatholicArena) June 24, 2024
Pope Francis met with Gilles Wach today in the Vatican
Wach is the founder of the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest, which provides the Traditional Latin Mass to Catholics pic.twitter.com/XIsmiIxpTD
Concerning
If I had to put money on what will happen; the ICKSP will lose their access to the 1962 liturgy and will leave the FSSP as the only canonically regular source for the latin mass. I think banning the latin mass from the FSSP is a bridge too far for the Holy Father, seeing as the FSSP left the SSPX with the assurance that they could continue to celebrate mass using the pre-1962 rite, it is their entire raison d'etre.
I sure wish Cdl Vigano would go scorched earth and consecrate 8-10 bishops before the hammer drops on him to ensure the viability of the SSPX and FSSP among others, but the Holy Spirit will provide.
Oh yes, definitely. The 4 from the 80's are getting a little long in the tooth and the issue is going to come to a head once again as they won't let the Society be left without the ability to ordain Priests or confirm Catholics.747Ag said:Serviam said:I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.AggieRain said:Woodshed?Serviam said:ROME
— Catholic Arena (@CatholicArena) June 24, 2024
Pope Francis met with Gilles Wach today in the Vatican
Wach is the founder of the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest, which provides the Traditional Latin Mass to Catholics pic.twitter.com/XIsmiIxpTD
Concerning
If I had to put money on what will happen; the ICKSP will lose their access to the 1962 liturgy and will leave the FSSP as the only canonically regular source for the latin mass. I think banning the latin mass from the FSSP is a bridge too far for the Holy Father, seeing as the FSSP left the SSPX with the assurance that they could continue to celebrate mass using the pre-1962 rite, it is their entire raison d'etre.
I sure wish Cdl Vigano would go scorched earth and consecrate 8-10 bishops before the hammer drops on him to ensure the viability of the SSPX and FSSP among others, but the Holy Spirit will provide.
SSPX does see the need for additional bishops.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2024/06/first-public-acknowledgement-of.html?m=1
I will have to check that out, his story is fascinating how he joined the Society after he retired; but I didn't know much about his decision making process, I'll definitely check it out, thank you.747Ag said:
Sidenote... These 4 videos from the late Bishop Vitus Huonder are excellent.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDP1MXg96rBVP3pt7M1FDZyRptqJNEGfJ&si=OXQbZcttpmOpUHu2
Wow, this Bishop is a genius. He talks for an hour without any pauses or "uhms" or "ahhhs" flowing seamlessly from one related topic to the next.747Ag said:
Sidenote... These 4 videos from the late Bishop Vitus Huonder are excellent.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDP1MXg96rBVP3pt7M1FDZyRptqJNEGfJ&si=OXQbZcttpmOpUHu2
PabloSerna said:
Some of you need to refresh your news feed. A lot of it is way, way off.
PabloSerna said:
Some of you need to refresh your news feed. A lot of it is way, way off.
Sea Speed said:
Serviam, care to explain the importance of the Latin mass and why the Pope is attempting to remove it to a uninterested observer? My kids go to Catholic school so the chaos is of some interest to me.
aggietony2010 said:
I'll take a crack at a cliffs notes version
In the 1960s, the church called the second Vatican council. Among other things, revisions to the mass were planned, mainly in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. This document called for some pretty organic changes to the Mass. Use of the vernacular (not exclusively), increased participation from the laity, adding an increased focus on scripture, etc.
In the decades that followed, the more progressive (from a liturgical standpoint) wing of the church took advantage of the situation and implemented changes that I'd argue were considerably more aggressive than the council intended.
Instead of introducing the vernacular in some spots and maintaining Latin for others, Latin basically became non-existent in many masses.
Instead of new and appropriate music traditions being incorporated, with chant maintaining its "pride of place", music became a free for all, with folk and other modern musical forms becoming the norm.
What used to be a very defined structure to the mass became a menu of options to the priest to choose from.
And all of these things aren't necessarily bad, but they certainly can and have been abused.
But I think the biggest loss is that a lot of the traditional calendar and Catholic culture got thrown away at the same time. There are a few things that the Council never got around to discussing that disappeared. And a rich treasury of prayers that were used in the old (pre-Vatican II missal) was chopped up, rearranged and partially discarded. A lot of "hard teachings" were de-emphasized.
The Latin Mass (often called the TLM, Traditional Latin Mass) preserves all those things, quite simply because it uses the old missal. I was first attracted by the aesthetics of it, but as I learn more, I'm lessed concerned with the loss of the "Latin" and moreso with the "Traditional" part.
As for why it is being banned/restricted: From 1970ish-2008, the TLM really existed in a bizarre state. It required special permissions to say, and was not very widespread. In 2008, Pope Benedict changed that with a document that essentially said the two forms could coexist.
However, a portion of people who love the TLM also reject some other church teachings, like the entirety of the second Vatican council, whether or not the Pope is the pope, etc. Francis feels that this view is widespread, and that the two forms cannot coexist.
tldr; Pope Francis feels the Latin mass is associated with a conservative/traditional (occasionally to the point of schism) wing of the church and must be eliminated.
PabloSerna said:aggietony2010 said:
I'll take a crack at a cliffs notes version
In the 1960s, the church called the second Vatican council. Among other things, revisions to the mass were planned, mainly in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. This document called for some pretty organic changes to the Mass. Use of the vernacular (not exclusively), increased participation from the laity, adding an increased focus on scripture, etc.
In the decades that followed, the more progressive (from a liturgical standpoint) wing of the church took advantage of the situation and implemented changes that I'd argue were considerably more aggressive than the council intended.
Instead of introducing the vernacular in some spots and maintaining Latin for others, Latin basically became non-existent in many masses.
Instead of new and appropriate music traditions being incorporated, with chant maintaining its "pride of place", music became a free for all, with folk and other modern musical forms becoming the norm.
What used to be a very defined structure to the mass became a menu of options to the priest to choose from.
And all of these things aren't necessarily bad, but they certainly can and have been abused.
But I think the biggest loss is that a lot of the traditional calendar and Catholic culture got thrown away at the same time. There are a few things that the Council never got around to discussing that disappeared. And a rich treasury of prayers that were used in the old (pre-Vatican II missal) was chopped up, rearranged and partially discarded. A lot of "hard teachings" were de-emphasized.
The Latin Mass (often called the TLM, Traditional Latin Mass) preserves all those things, quite simply because it uses the old missal. I was first attracted by the aesthetics of it, but as I learn more, I'm lessed concerned with the loss of the "Latin" and moreso with the "Traditional" part.
As for why it is being banned/restricted: From 1970ish-2008, the TLM really existed in a bizarre state. It required special permissions to say, and was not very widespread. In 2008, Pope Benedict changed that with a document that essentially said the two forms could coexist.
However, a portion of people who love the TLM also reject some other church teachings, like the entirety of the second Vatican council, whether or not the Pope is the pope, etc. Francis feels that this view is widespread, and that the two forms cannot coexist.
tldr; Pope Francis feels the Latin mass is associated with a conservative/traditional (occasionally to the point of schism) wing of the church and must be eliminated.
There is a sin that is bearing false witness against thy neighbor. What you have written is really just your opinion. You cannot possibly know what the Pope "feels." Please retract.
PabloSerna said:
AggieTony did a horrible job and you continue to pine for Satan by labeling Catholics as "trads" and "progressives" - there are neither. You need to stop trying to divide the Church.
Here is what the Pope actually wrote, "At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion." (Apostolic Letter issued Motu Proprio)
Its about getting on the same page and focusing on the mission, not the liturgy. Is liturgy important, yes, but not if it leads one to judge the heart of a parish based on the placement of the tabernacle, the quality of the music, or the layout of the nave. Jesus own words about the temple of Jerusalem should make all of that clear.