The SSPX is about to get a whole lot bigger

11,431 Views | 128 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by Sea Speed
Serviam
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Rorate Caeli, who had inside scoop on Traditiones Custodes is posting that the Vatican is set to ban the Traditional Latin Mass everywhere in the Roman Church, with the possible exception of ICKSP and FSSP (who without a Bishop are extremely vulnerable)

Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.

I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.


jrico2727
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AG
This was always the plan I am afraid. I wouldn't be surprised by a massive excommunication after that. Institutional suicide will be the lasting legacy of the boomers.
Serviam
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I don't understand any of the reasoning as of late. "We need to make Episcopalians and Anglicans more comfortable in the Church, so let's give them a bishop and their own special Anglican Use of the Roman Rite"
Vs
"Take away Opus Dei's bishop, try and Force the FSSP to participate in a Novus ordo Chrism Mass and never give them the Bishop they were promised"
747Ag
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AG
The article in question..

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2024/06/urgent-urgent-growing-rumors-of-final.html
747Ag
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AG
Some background...

https://onepeterfive.com/mind-behind-motu-proprio/
Bob Lee
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AG
What are the chances FSSP is not an exception?
Serviam
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Bob Lee said:

What are the chances FSSP is not an exception?


If Grillo is listened to as closely as he was for Traditiones Custodes there will be no exceptions.
PabloSerna
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AG
It's the cult of personality treatment. However in this case the person is the smells and bells. Look at the many times the RCC has course corrected other movements.

Just my opinion of course.
fc2112
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Serviam said:

Rorate Caeli, who had inside scoop on Traditiones Custodes is posting that the Vatican is set to ban the Traditional Latin Mass everywhere in the Roman Church, with the possible exception of ICKSP and FSSP (who without a Bishop are extremely vulnerable)

Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.

I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.
So, SSPX finally admits they truly are schismatic, something everyone else has known for decades?
Serviam
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fc2112 said:

Serviam said:

Rorate Caeli, who had inside scoop on Traditiones Custodes is posting that the Vatican is set to ban the Traditional Latin Mass everywhere in the Roman Church, with the possible exception of ICKSP and FSSP (who without a Bishop are extremely vulnerable)

Expect a huge influx of parishioners into the SSPX and Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.

I wish I could understand what is motivating the Holy Father to attack the most observant sectors of his flock, but this too shall pass.
So, SSPX finally admits they truly are schismatic, something everyone else has known for decades?


Explain to me how you came to that conclusion by what I wrote.
Serviam
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Concerning
AggieRain
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AG
Serviam said:



Concerning
Woodshed?
Serviam
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AggieRain said:

Serviam said:



Concerning
Woodshed?
I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.

If I had to put money on what will happen; the ICKSP will lose their access to the 1962 liturgy and will leave the FSSP as the only canonically regular source for the latin mass. I think banning the latin mass from the FSSP is a bridge too far for the Holy Father, seeing as the FSSP left the SSPX with the assurance that they could continue to celebrate mass using the pre-1962 rite, it is their entire raison d'etre.

I sure wish Cdl Vigano would go scorched earth and consecrate 8-10 bishops before the hammer drops on him to ensure the viability of the SSPX and FSSP among others, but the Holy Spirit will provide.
747Ag
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AG
Serviam said:

AggieRain said:

Serviam said:



Concerning
Woodshed?
I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.

If I had to put money on what will happen; the ICKSP will lose their access to the 1962 liturgy and will leave the FSSP as the only canonically regular source for the latin mass. I think banning the latin mass from the FSSP is a bridge too far for the Holy Father, seeing as the FSSP left the SSPX with the assurance that they could continue to celebrate mass using the pre-1962 rite, it is their entire raison d'etre.

I sure wish Cdl Vigano would go scorched earth and consecrate 8-10 bishops before the hammer drops on him to ensure the viability of the SSPX and FSSP among others, but the Holy Spirit will provide.

SSPX does see the need for additional bishops.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2024/06/first-public-acknowledgement-of.html?m=1
Serviam
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747Ag said:

Serviam said:

AggieRain said:

Serviam said:



Concerning
Woodshed?
I would think not the woodshed as the ICKSP has done nothing wrong, however I fear he is notifying them that they will no longer be able to say the Traditional Latin Mass which is very much a core component of their charism.

If I had to put money on what will happen; the ICKSP will lose their access to the 1962 liturgy and will leave the FSSP as the only canonically regular source for the latin mass. I think banning the latin mass from the FSSP is a bridge too far for the Holy Father, seeing as the FSSP left the SSPX with the assurance that they could continue to celebrate mass using the pre-1962 rite, it is their entire raison d'etre.

I sure wish Cdl Vigano would go scorched earth and consecrate 8-10 bishops before the hammer drops on him to ensure the viability of the SSPX and FSSP among others, but the Holy Spirit will provide.

SSPX does see the need for additional bishops.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2024/06/first-public-acknowledgement-of.html?m=1
Oh yes, definitely. The 4 from the 80's are getting a little long in the tooth and the issue is going to come to a head once again as they won't let the Society be left without the ability to ordain Priests or confirm Catholics.
747Ag
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AG
Sidenote... These 4 videos from the late Bishop Vitus Huonder are excellent.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDP1MXg96rBVP3pt7M1FDZyRptqJNEGfJ&si=OXQbZcttpmOpUHu2
Serviam
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747Ag said:

Sidenote... These 4 videos from the late Bishop Vitus Huonder are excellent.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDP1MXg96rBVP3pt7M1FDZyRptqJNEGfJ&si=OXQbZcttpmOpUHu2
I will have to check that out, his story is fascinating how he joined the Society after he retired; but I didn't know much about his decision making process, I'll definitely check it out, thank you.

Serviam
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747Ag said:

Sidenote... These 4 videos from the late Bishop Vitus Huonder are excellent.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDP1MXg96rBVP3pt7M1FDZyRptqJNEGfJ&si=OXQbZcttpmOpUHu2
Wow, this Bishop is a genius. He talks for an hour without any pauses or "uhms" or "ahhhs" flowing seamlessly from one related topic to the next.
hockeyag
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AG
Thank you for posting this very informative link. It provokes a lot to think about in light of what is rumored to come next month.
Serviam
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https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/7252-vatican-document-further-restricting-tlm-said-to-exist-be-backed-by-cardinal-parolin

The remnant claiming there is a document being presented to the Holy Father that would eliminate the traditional latin mass outside of the ICKSP and FSSP.

aggietony2010
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AG
Man, between this and Schloss I don't think I can handle any more internet rumor mill.
Serviam
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I have a very good friend who is a national Catholic personality with his own show, and he has confirmed that there is indeed a document waiting on papal approval that will curtail the traditional latin mass to only those Ecclesia Dei communities; which for all intents and purposes is just the FSSP and ICKSP (the others being small monasteries of cloistered monks).

Really really sad. In Houston; at Annunciation Catholic Church; which has celebrated the latin mass since the 1870's; it will be no more.

I just cannot understand why every weird and disordered fetish under the sun is being met with emapthy, understanding, tolerance and accompaniment; and the Latin Mass, with all the other problems raging in our Church, is under the gun.
PabloSerna
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AG
Some of you need to refresh your news feed. A lot of it is way, way off.
Serviam
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PabloSerna said:

Some of you need to refresh your news feed. A lot of it is way, way off.


Any news you have to add would be appreciated
aggietony2010
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AG
PabloSerna said:

Some of you need to refresh your news feed. A lot of it is way, way off.


Just refreshed it. Looks the same.
Sea Speed
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AG
Serviam, care to explain the importance of the Latin mass and why the Pope is attempting to remove it to a uninterested observer? My kids go to Catholic school so the chaos is of some interest to me.
aggietony2010
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AG
I'll take a crack at a cliffs notes version

In the 1960s, the church called the second Vatican council. Among other things, revisions to the mass were planned, mainly in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. This document called for some pretty organic changes to the Mass. Use of the vernacular (not exclusively), increased participation from the laity, adding an increased focus on scripture, etc.

In the decades that followed, the more progressive (from a liturgical standpoint) wing of the church took advantage of the situation and implemented changes that I'd argue were considerably more aggressive than the council intended.

Instead of introducing the vernacular in some spots and maintaining Latin for others, Latin basically became non-existent in many masses.

Instead of new and appropriate music traditions being incorporated, with chant maintaining its "pride of place", music became a free for all, with folk and other modern musical forms becoming the norm.

What used to be a very defined structure to the mass became a menu of options to the priest to choose from.

And all of these things aren't necessarily bad, but they certainly can and have been abused.

But I think the biggest loss is that a lot of the traditional calendar and Catholic culture got thrown away at the same time. There are a few things that the Council never got around to discussing that disappeared. And a rich treasury of prayers that were used in the old (pre-Vatican II missal) was chopped up, rearranged and partially discarded. A lot of "hard teachings" were de-emphasized.

The Latin Mass (often called the TLM, Traditional Latin Mass) preserves all those things, quite simply because it uses the old missal. I was first attracted by the aesthetics of it, but as I learn more, I'm lessed concerned with the loss of the "Latin" and moreso with the "Traditional" part.

As for why it is being banned/restricted: From 1970ish-2008, the TLM really existed in a bizarre state. It required special permissions to say, and was not very widespread. In 2008, Pope Benedict changed that with a document that essentially said the two forms could coexist.

However, a portion of people who love the TLM also reject some other church teachings, like the entirety of the second Vatican council, whether or not the Pope is the pope, etc. Francis feels that this view is widespread, and that the two forms cannot coexist.

tldr; Pope Francis feels the Latin mass is associated with a conservative/traditional (occasionally to the point of schism) wing of the church and must be eliminated.
Serviam
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Sea Speed said:

Serviam, care to explain the importance of the Latin mass and why the Pope is attempting to remove it to a uninterested observer? My kids go to Catholic school so the chaos is of some interest to me.


AggieTony did a great job, what I will say is my opinion. I believe that the changes to the new mass changed the focus from the participation in the life, death and resurrection of Christ while seated at the foot of the cross on Calvary, to a get together that more closely resembles the Last Supper.

I believe the Holy Father is trying to change it mainly because he is getting bad info from advisors, but the reasoning is that it's polarizing the Catholic Church, which I think is accurate. You have two (really 3 wings) now in the Church, the trads; the progs, and the dudes just going to mass like they're supposed to.

The trads and the progs are trying to tug the church in two different directions; the trads with a sort of Pre-Vatican II righteous revanchism, and the progs trying to turn it into a gay version of the Salvation Army with some climate alarmism tossed in, and the normies in the middle are just oblivious.

So the stated answer is because the two different forms are leading to disunity, but the real reason is that the current spirit of the Vatican hates everything to do with traditionalism.

jrico2727
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AG



This is a great episode of firing line very close to the time of all the changes. It does a good job of presenting both sides. It is that almost 50 years later we're having the same fight. The decline in the church was so evident then, and they didn't have a way to imagine our current state.

On a side note their was a lot of emphasis of the changing the focus of the Mass from a sacrifice to a communial meal.
PabloSerna
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AG
aggietony2010 said:

I'll take a crack at a cliffs notes version

In the 1960s, the church called the second Vatican council. Among other things, revisions to the mass were planned, mainly in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. This document called for some pretty organic changes to the Mass. Use of the vernacular (not exclusively), increased participation from the laity, adding an increased focus on scripture, etc.

In the decades that followed, the more progressive (from a liturgical standpoint) wing of the church took advantage of the situation and implemented changes that I'd argue were considerably more aggressive than the council intended.

Instead of introducing the vernacular in some spots and maintaining Latin for others, Latin basically became non-existent in many masses.

Instead of new and appropriate music traditions being incorporated, with chant maintaining its "pride of place", music became a free for all, with folk and other modern musical forms becoming the norm.

What used to be a very defined structure to the mass became a menu of options to the priest to choose from.

And all of these things aren't necessarily bad, but they certainly can and have been abused.

But I think the biggest loss is that a lot of the traditional calendar and Catholic culture got thrown away at the same time. There are a few things that the Council never got around to discussing that disappeared. And a rich treasury of prayers that were used in the old (pre-Vatican II missal) was chopped up, rearranged and partially discarded. A lot of "hard teachings" were de-emphasized.

The Latin Mass (often called the TLM, Traditional Latin Mass) preserves all those things, quite simply because it uses the old missal. I was first attracted by the aesthetics of it, but as I learn more, I'm lessed concerned with the loss of the "Latin" and moreso with the "Traditional" part.

As for why it is being banned/restricted: From 1970ish-2008, the TLM really existed in a bizarre state. It required special permissions to say, and was not very widespread. In 2008, Pope Benedict changed that with a document that essentially said the two forms could coexist.

However, a portion of people who love the TLM also reject some other church teachings, like the entirety of the second Vatican council, whether or not the Pope is the pope, etc. Francis feels that this view is widespread, and that the two forms cannot coexist.

tldr; Pope Francis feels the Latin mass is associated with a conservative/traditional (occasionally to the point of schism) wing of the church and must be eliminated.

There is a sin that is bearing false witness against thy neighbor. What you have written is really just your opinion. You cannot possibly know what the Pope "feels." Please retract.

aggietony2010
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AG
PabloSerna said:

aggietony2010 said:

I'll take a crack at a cliffs notes version

In the 1960s, the church called the second Vatican council. Among other things, revisions to the mass were planned, mainly in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. This document called for some pretty organic changes to the Mass. Use of the vernacular (not exclusively), increased participation from the laity, adding an increased focus on scripture, etc.

In the decades that followed, the more progressive (from a liturgical standpoint) wing of the church took advantage of the situation and implemented changes that I'd argue were considerably more aggressive than the council intended.

Instead of introducing the vernacular in some spots and maintaining Latin for others, Latin basically became non-existent in many masses.

Instead of new and appropriate music traditions being incorporated, with chant maintaining its "pride of place", music became a free for all, with folk and other modern musical forms becoming the norm.

What used to be a very defined structure to the mass became a menu of options to the priest to choose from.

And all of these things aren't necessarily bad, but they certainly can and have been abused.

But I think the biggest loss is that a lot of the traditional calendar and Catholic culture got thrown away at the same time. There are a few things that the Council never got around to discussing that disappeared. And a rich treasury of prayers that were used in the old (pre-Vatican II missal) was chopped up, rearranged and partially discarded. A lot of "hard teachings" were de-emphasized.

The Latin Mass (often called the TLM, Traditional Latin Mass) preserves all those things, quite simply because it uses the old missal. I was first attracted by the aesthetics of it, but as I learn more, I'm lessed concerned with the loss of the "Latin" and moreso with the "Traditional" part.

As for why it is being banned/restricted: From 1970ish-2008, the TLM really existed in a bizarre state. It required special permissions to say, and was not very widespread. In 2008, Pope Benedict changed that with a document that essentially said the two forms could coexist.

However, a portion of people who love the TLM also reject some other church teachings, like the entirety of the second Vatican council, whether or not the Pope is the pope, etc. Francis feels that this view is widespread, and that the two forms cannot coexist.

tldr; Pope Francis feels the Latin mass is associated with a conservative/traditional (occasionally to the point of schism) wing of the church and must be eliminated.

There is a sin that is bearing false witness against thy neighbor. What you have written is really just your opinion. You cannot possibly know what the Pope "feels." Please retract.




It's clearly my opinion, as mind reading devices are as unreal as the idea that a man can become a woman. The "feelings" that I've attributed to him are supported by his words and actions.

And that's extremely rich coming from you. You're constantly putting words in people's mouth and uncharitably interpreting people's words on this forum.

Retraction denied.
Sea Speed
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AG
Thanks to you and Aggie tony.

How do you see this playing out and what percentage of the church do you see as traditional vs progressive? Same question about the church in texas, specifically.
PabloSerna
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AG
AggieTony did a horrible job and you continue to pine for Satan by labeling Catholics as "trads" and "progressives" - there are neither. You need to stop trying to divide the Church.

Here is what the Pope actually wrote, "At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion." (Apostolic Letter issued Motu Proprio)

Its about getting on the same page and focusing on the mission, not the liturgy. Is liturgy important, yes, but not if it leads one to judge the heart of a parish based on the placement of the tabernacle, the quality of the music, or the layout of the nave. Jesus own words about the temple in Jerusalem should make all of that clear.




PabloSerna
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AG
His words are abundant on this topic. Why do you feel the need to ignore them and fabricate your own lie?
747Ag
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AG
PabloSerna said:

AggieTony did a horrible job and you continue to pine for Satan by labeling Catholics as "trads" and "progressives" - there are neither. You need to stop trying to divide the Church.

Here is what the Pope actually wrote, "At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion." (Apostolic Letter issued Motu Proprio)

Its about getting on the same page and focusing on the mission, not the liturgy. Is liturgy important, yes, but not if it leads one to judge the heart of a parish based on the placement of the tabernacle, the quality of the music, or the layout of the nave. Jesus own words about the temple of Jerusalem should make all of that clear.

Pablo... Honest question. What do you mean when you refer to "the mission"? You've used that phraseology a few times. I have thoughts, but I'd rather not risk mischaracterizing your point here.
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