Vatican II's non-binding pastoral "spirit" still wreaking havoc

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Serviam
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10:18p, 5/16/24
Fresh off the hubbub of the Harrison Butker body slam of modernism and the liberal world order both the FSSP and the SSPX are in the crosshairs again. These two so-called Bogeymen are doing 80% of the heavy lifting in keeping authentic Catholic teaching alive.

The "spirit of Vatican II" has absolutely maimed our faith, the articles from self-professed "Catholics" trashing Butker show that for many the faith has morphed into some combination of the Red Cross and Rotary club rather than participation in the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ.

Vatican II's weird, non-pastoral nature aside, oddly the SSPX are more true to the findings than the rest of the mainstream church. Gregorian Chant given pride of place, non-ordained Eucharistic ministers only used during actual extraordinary circumstances; neither of these are common in today's ordinary form. Why are the mainstream not indicted and ostracized for picking and choosing which documents of Vatican II to follow, where the Society is?

Lastly, if you are a faithful Catholic, please just once attend a local SSPX Mass; it is completely valid, it is completely licit, and it will save the Church.
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747Ag
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In reply to Serviam • 5:49a, 5/17/24
AG
They are 80ish miles from me, but in time I may make the trek. The priory of St Thomas More headed up a spiritual bouquet campaign a while back to try and get Gov DeSantis to consecrate Florida to the Immaculate Heart. Never heard how it turned out.
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Serviam
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In reply to 747Ag • 7:03a, 5/17/24
747Ag said:
They are 80ish miles from me, but in time I may make the trek. The priory of St Thomas More headed up a spiritual bouquet campaign a while back to try and get Gov DeSantis to consecrate Florida to the Immaculate Heart. Never heard how it turned out.


We are very blessed in the Houston area that we have St Michael's in the North, and Queen of Angels in the Southeast. I hope your fellow Floridians were successful in their mission to consecrate the state to the Immaculate Heart!
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fc2112
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7:18a, 5/17/24
Keep in mind SSPX is not in full communion with Rome. So, faithful Catholics should not believe all the sacraments there are licit.

Here is what the Vatican has said:

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20046

And before y'all jump me - I have friends who are priests in this order. Yes, they believe they are fine but Rome does not.

The FSSP IS in full communion.
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Serviam
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:38a, 5/17/24
fc2112 said:
Keep in mind SSPX is not in full communion with Rome. So, faithful Catholics should not believe all the sacraments there are licit.

Here is what the Vatican has said:

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20046

And before y'all jump me - I have friends who are priests in this order. Yes, they believe they are fine but Rome does not.

The FSSP IS in full communion.


No jumping here brother, and while I appreciated the leadership of CDF Muller and respect him very much I don't think he gets to make the call.

The Vatican has created most of this mess by keeping the Society in some weird sort of limbo that doesn't actually exist so they don't have to deal with the issue directly. They aren't in "full-communion" (what pray-tell are the hallmarks of 'partial communion'?) yet the priests can marry and forgive sins, which no other schismatics can do. You will notice the Holy Father did not grant this to the Orthodox, showing he understands the Society are Catholic and in communion.

With regards to what sacraments are illicit:

Baptism- any baptism in the Trinitarian formula is ok so this is easy
First Communion- yes, the Priests of the SSPX have been ordained by Bishops whose excommunications have been lifted
Reconciliation- yes, as of 2015
Confirmation- same as First Communion, if you have ordained Bishops who have not been excommunicated you can confirm.
Marriage- Yes, since 2017
Holy Orders- same as First Communion/Confirmation
Anointing of the sick - Yes, if you have priests that have been ordained from a non-excommunicated Bishop, you can anoint.



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The BQ Jock
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In reply to fc2112 • 7:49a, 5/17/24
Communion is binary, you are either in or out. Sure, the Society is in an odd situation, but it is abundantly clear that they are in communion with The Church. Pope Francis even granted faculties for confession and matrimony. Even if we don't believe those faculties were needed to be given in this situation, it was incredibly generous of the Pope, and popes don't do that for schismatics. God bless.
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jrico2727
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8:10a, 5/17/24
AG
I have always felt that the theory that the purpose behind Traditionis Custodes was to hurd the Traditional Catholics into the SSPX, as they systematically dismantle the traditional faith from local dioceses. Once that occurs then the schismatic hammer drops on everyone at once. Hopefully this is just well founded paranoia.
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747Ag
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8:11a, 5/17/24
AG
Further, schismatics don't pray for the local ordinary and the Pope during Mass. One analogy to drive the point home further, is that you can't be partially pregnant. I think the better term here is canonical limbo.
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fc2112
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In reply to 747Ag • 8:23a, 5/17/24
I would agree with the limbo term.

All the same, there is no reason a Catholic has to expose themselves to the possibility of illicit sacraments when perfectly licit ones exist at parishes all around them. Which is why - if you just gotta have the Latin - find a FSSP parish.
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747Ag
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In reply to fc2112 • 10:50a, 5/17/24
AG
fc2112 said:
I would agree with the limbo term.

All the same, there is no reason a Catholic has to expose themselves to the possibility of illicit sacraments when perfectly licit ones exist at parishes all around them. Which is why - if you just gotta have the Latin - find a FSSP parish.
What would be illicit/unlawful considering sacraments confected by priests of the SSPX? Permissions are granted as outlined above. They often work with local ordinaries. What am I missing?
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PabloSerna
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12:37p, 5/17/24
AG
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."

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jrico2727
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In reply to PabloSerna • 12:51p, 5/17/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."

That's about as effective as saying all Modernists are Protestants and Unitarians and haven't figured it out yet
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747Ag
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In reply to PabloSerna • 1:00p, 5/17/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."

Lol... quoting the late Fr. Cekada... while he may have some astute observations on what happened, he's wrong on that point and the general question of sedevacantism.
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 3:51p, 5/17/24
PabloSerna said:
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."



Did you find it interesting because it was startlingly inaccurate?
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747Ag
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4:23p, 5/17/24
AG
Bartel's story reads as though there was much deeper issues than merely being associated with the SSPX. Distorted, excessive, and disordered viewpoints from his family of origin.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Serviam • 5:44p, 5/17/24
AG
Serviam said:
PabloSerna said:
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."



Did you find it interesting because it was startlingly inaccurate?
I find it all kind of sad.
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 7:02p, 5/17/24
PabloSerna said:
Serviam said:
PabloSerna said:
Why I left the Society of St. Pius X

from part of the article I found interesting,

"all traditionalists, therefore, are really sedevacantistsit's just that they haven't all figured it out yet."



Did you find it interesting because it was startlingly inaccurate?
I find it all kind of sad.


Me too, it seems like the deposit of faith is being watered down to appeal to those who don't want to be Catholic, and those that hunger for authenticity are being pushed to the margins. I can't explain it.

No one can make sense of the juxtaposition of the Holy Father's bowing to and beseeching a blessing from Bartholomew the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, and his "who am I to judge" answer over whether a Protestant can receive communion, and his treatment of traditional Catholics. Truly baffling. I find it all kind of sad
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PabloSerna
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8:36p, 5/18/24
AG
Did Jesus come to judge? We know he didn't. Pope is just repeating what Christ said first. All people can bless. My mom, 84 years old, still blesses me at the end of our phone call. I've said this before, one of the best blessings you can receive is from a homeless person. It may be all they have.

Somewhere, someone asked about the more than 70% of Catholics that do not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the holy sacrifice of the mass (eucharist). We don't have the numbers, but based on Jn 6:66, we know many of the disciples left Jesus when he first taught this doctrine. I would bet that it was more than 70%. So many that Jesus turned to the 12 and asked them would they leave him also? Enter Saint Peter with the holy spirit speaking truth when he said where would they go, that Jesus has the words of everlasting life.

It made think back to when I first came to fully believe in the real presence in the eucharist. I was probably in my late 30's early 40's to be honest. I had read some books about eucharistic miracles and even writings by St. Thomas. Our priest at the time was very reverent almost Padre Pio like by pausing for long periods. But for me, it was an example by two people in particular that witnessed to the truth of the teachings of Jesus with their very lives.

Fr. Ralph Rogowski OP, and Sister Helen Marie Raycraft OP - led our lay Dominican chapter for more than 30 years. I was privileged to have joined early on before the group became an official lay chapter of the Order of Preachers. Fr. Ralph and Sister Helen were part of the Dominican Preaching Team that traveled throughout the Americas "planting seeds" - communidas de base - lay groups affiliated with one or two local parishes. So effective were these communities that it surprised many of the local pastors that so many people were yearning for adult catechesis.

Fr. Ralph could have been a high level executive with his constant writing, preaching, and ministry (mass, confessions, prayers) and Sister Helen could have been a CEO at a large business with her organizational skills, preaching, and personal skills. I say that to mean, I have met CEOs, Executives, and very successful people in my line of work- they were every bit as driven and successful with their ministry.

It was at one of our chapter meetings that I made the connection between their words and the words of Christ. They were actually doing what he calls all of us to do. They gave their lives to this calling and never looked back. Like Peter, I understood then that Jesus really did have the words of eternal life and it was centered on his life of love and mercy. The eucharist is how we encounter Jesus in a very real way and it gives us the food to journey on.

It was a hard teaching then to accept and it is still hard to fully understand. It is a lived experience, that is what Peter was testifying about.
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 9:25p, 5/18/24
That was a very nice paragraph, and I mean that, but I'm not sure what it had to do with the topic at hand. I also think you left an important part immediately following the Bread of Life discourse. Not only did some Disciples leave; the Good Shepherd, who would leave the 99 to save the 1, let them leave. There's a message in there.

Christ didn't water down His message, He didn't try to meet them halfway, He didn't produce an instants miracle to sway their non belief. "This teaching is hard, who can accept it?" Is the refrain today from many corners of the church, from those that would have us put some nuance on revealed truth, or soften the Deposit of Faith. Let our answer to them be like Christ's.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Serviam • 11:00p, 5/18/24
AG
Did I misunderstand your words about a SSPX mass "saving" the Church? Sometimes I read words like those written in the OP and wonder if these are to be taken at face value? Maybe you mean something else, but my first reaction was that Jesus has already saved us. This is the Good News!

Please then explain what is "non-binding" about Vatican II?

What do you mean when you say that the SSPX mass will save the Church?

How exactly has the "spirit" of Vatican II "maimed our faith"?

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PabloSerna
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In reply to Serviam • 11:04p, 5/18/24
AG
Confusingly you cite a passage where Christ risks all to save the one as a "tough love" example? It is profoundly the opposite- Jesus greatly desires to be with us at great peril.

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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 11:21a, 5/19/24
PabloSerna said:
Did I misunderstand your words about a SSPX mass "saving" the Church? Sometimes I read words like those written in the OP and wonder if these are to be taken at face value? Maybe you mean something else, but my first reaction was that Jesus has already saved us. This is the Good News!

Please then explain what is "non-binding" about Vatican II?

What do you mean when you say that the SSPX mass will save the Church?

How exactly has the "spirit" of Vatican II "maimed our faith"?



You did not misunderstand me; the SSPX and the FSSP will be instruments of the Holy Spirit safeguarding the deposit of faith for the Church from heterodoxy. Much as the Catholic Church safeguarded Western culture and philosophy during the Dark Ages, and when St Athanasius drew attention to the Arian heresy sweeping through bishops in Egypt, the SSPX will keep the flame of orthodoxy (literally 'right belief') burning in the Church.

With regards to Vatican II, it was novel for being a pastoral council, less focused on defining dogmas and more focused on praxis, apparently having forgotten "lex orandi, lex credendi". There were several documents that came out of this council which are roundly ignored by both liberal and conservative alike. Much like the status of the Society, the Vatican is being purposefully vague so it doesn't have to deal with this mess. For myself, I have a huge issue with the way the Council itself was put together, inviting large numbers of Atheists, Jews, and Protestants to tell us "how to Catholic correctly".

The fruit of this council is evident, and I'm not sure how you can ask "how has it maimed our faith". We have Catholics that are proud Masons, Catholics supporting abortion, gay marriage, birth control, church attendance in the gutter, the fertility rate in the gutter, reconciliation a yearly box to check off, and both the sacraments and the Eucharist itself seen as a symbol of a time long past.

If you want to know where the Church is thriving, look for the smell of incense and listen for the Latin, not for guitars or rapping homilists.
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 11:22a, 5/19/24
PabloSerna said:
Confusingly you cite a passage where Christ risks all to save the one as a "tough love" example? It is profoundly the opposite- Jesus greatly desires to be with us at great peril.



He does, yet He let those leave him who had a problem with his Bread of Life discourse. He could have chased after them, shouted "it's just an allegory!!" Or dropped some Aristotelian metaphysics on them regarding how it would still look and taste like bread and wine, but He didn't. What's the message?
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PabloSerna
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1:49p, 5/19/24
AG
Actually, I have a feeling it is the stubborn few who have taken their ball and wandered off that Christ is seeking out. In the end, there is nothing that can be added to the sacrifice that Jesus gave us at Calvary.

The more I hear the gospel message to more I see Christ calling out this very problem. His constant appeal to the Pharisees for their outward appearances of holiness but inwardly had cold harden hearts.

I tried searching for SSPX hospitals, orphanages, prison ministries, refugee shelter, or just a crisis pregnancy center- I couldn't find one, maybe you can point me to this fruit?
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 2:11p, 5/19/24
PabloSerna said:
Actually, I have a feeling it is the stubborn few who have taken their ball and wandered off that Christ is seeking out. In the end, there is nothing that can be added to the sacrifice that Jesus gave us at Calvary.

The more I hear the gospel message to more I see Christ calling out this very problem. His constant appeal to the Pharisees for their outward appearances of holiness but inwardly had cold harden hearts.

I tried searching for SSPX hospitals, orphanages, prison ministries, refugee shelter, or just a crisis pregnancy center- I couldn't find one, maybe you can point me to this fruit?


You need to examine what sort of internal biases you might have that influence your thoughts, or what sort of divination you tap into that informs you on the hearts of your fellow Catholics.

Charity is fantastic, and if you look at the charitable donations of traditional Catholics you'll see they donate around 4 times or so more than your typical Catholic. With that being said, Salus Animarum Suprema Lex. We are not a rotary club, nor an extension of the Red Cross. We exist to participate in the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

You cannot miss Mass to serve food at a food kitchen, the worship of Christ comes first; everything else flows from that.

Edit: still though, please answer my question, why did Christ let those disciples leave Him who couldn't handle His message?

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J-Licious
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In reply to Serviam • 2:22p, 5/19/24
AG
I am also interested in what you mean by it will save the Church.

I would also point out a counter thought, that if traditional Catholics leave the "regular mass"those parishes and communitieswhat will remain? Who will be there to teach CcD, form youth groups and parish ministries? You might create a snowball effect where the next generation is even less catechised.
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Serviam
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In reply to J-Licious • 2:48p, 5/19/24
J-Licious said:
I am also interested in what you mean by it will save the Church.

I would also point out a counter thought, that if traditional Catholics leave the "regular mass"those parishes and communitieswhat will remain? Who will be there to teach CcD, form youth groups and parish ministries? You might create a snowball effect where the next generation is even less catechised.


I posted above what I meant with regards to "saving the church" please see my post at 11:27.

Your second paragraph is a very good point and something I struggle with regularly, however I think that the "self-selection" is working. The priesthood is getting more and more traditional as the Vatican II generation die off; there are many articles about how the older more liberal priests are bemoaning the changes in the ideological slant of the new priests.

I have big problems with Vatican II, that is why I do not attend an FSSP mass, but I would have no problem with my children deciding to join an FSSP or Ordinariate Parrish. Long story short, the good that the SSPX does, doesn't stay just within the SSPX any more than a hermetic order or cloistered nun's prayers only impact their own.

Lastly, my first duty is to my family and my children, and as much as I care about the formation and catechization of ALL Catholic children, I need to ensure my own family's first.
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FTAggies
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4:42p, 5/19/24
Went to a Latin Mass for my brothers funeral, I hated the experience. Went to an Episcopalian ordinariate mass, was so much better and I understood the language, every bit as beautiful, or more. This is not to say I don't appreciate the orthodox thinking, I certainly sympathize with their position. The problem is that the church wants to be everything to everyone, they want to be both liberal and orthodox. They expect us to examine our consciences every month but then pretend it doesn't really matter in public what we say or do.
Gig'em
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to FTAggies • 10:22a, 5/20/24
AG
FTAggies said:
Went to a Latin Mass for my brothers funeral, I hated the experience. Went to an Episcopalian ordinariate mass, was so much better and I understood the language, every bit as beautiful, or more. This is not to say I don't appreciate the orthodox thinking, I certainly sympathize with their position. The problem is that the church wants to be everything to everyone, they want to be both liberal and orthodox. They expect us to examine our consciences every month but then pretend it doesn't really matter in public what we say or do.
The bolded part of your comment is spot on and this is why it matters that the Church turned a blind eye and continues to turn a blind eye to people like Biden, Pelosi, and countless other "Catholics" who are in the public eye being allowed to affirm sin.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Serviam • 12:05p, 5/21/24
AG
"still though, please answer my question, why did Christ let those disciples leave Him who couldn't handle His message?"

Matthew 15:24- "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

+++

Some could argue that Jesus gave the mission of evangelization to the Apostles. Which is what I believe. We don't know exactly the makeup of the disciples that rejected the teaching on the eucharist. We do know that he talked about risking all to save the one lost sheep. He talked about the Good Shepherd and how he will lay down his life for his sheep. I could go on, but I am not sure you understand.

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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 7:43p, 5/21/24
PabloSerna said:
"still though, please answer my question, why did Christ let those disciples leave Him who couldn't handle His message?"

Matthew 15:24- "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

+++

Some could argue that Jesus gave the mission of evangelization to the Apostles. Which is what I believe. We don't know exactly the makeup of the disciples that rejected the teaching on the eucharist. We do know that he talked about risking all to save the one lost sheep. He talked about the Good Shepherd and how he will lay down his life for his sheep. I could go on, but I am not sure you understand.



While we do not know the makeup of the disciples who left Christ after his bread of life discourse I think it's safe to assume they were not 100% gentiles. I don't think some would argue that Christ gave the mission of evangelizing to the gentiles to the apostles, I think anyone with a passing acquaintance with scripture of world history would argue as such since it is repeated several times in scripture. Christ is the King of the Jews, the prophesied messiah, his initial outreach is to the Jews; but His new covenant is with all. I don't know what this has to do with your argument as to why he let the crowd depart from
Him.

I will likely not understand your reasoning as it would seem to be nonsensical. I have a feeling the reasoning it is contorted to fit a preconceived worldview is that it would shatter that very worldview if proven internally inconsistent.

Who could worship a God who whips money lenders out of a temple? Who tells a tale of an inappropriately dressed wedding guest who is thrown weeping and wailing into a hell of immortal worms and unquenchable fires? Who says it'd be better to drown people before they harm children.

So instead, you've created this sort of Jefferson's Bible that consists of the Corporal works of Mercy, the beatitudes, and little else.
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747Ag
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In reply to Serviam • 9:28p, 5/21/24
AG
Serviam said:
...this sort of Jefferson's Bible that consists of the Corporal Works of Mercy, the Beatitudes, and little else.

Ah, yes... the spirit of this age... where, at best, the two greatest commandments are inverted (at worst, the first is pretty much forgotten) and the Spiritual Works of Mercy are ignored.
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PabloSerna
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3:17p, 5/22/24
AG
"Christ is calling each of you to work with him and to take up your responsibilities in order to build the civilization of Love." - Pope Benedict XVI

Apologies for being too obtuse for your method of thinking.

I will say though that my spiritual formation is not in isolation. I bring up the Order of Preachers yet again and the formation for the laity which I have been blessed to be a part of going on 26 years. Think of it like a monthly bible study group, but with a very structured prayer and reflection period. We take "study" very seriously. We also have a spiritual advisor and several of our chapter members are part of the larger (provincial) network across the United States and the world.

So, your idea that I have some "preconceived worldview" is very far from the truth. What I share on here is very much in keeping with the Dominican spirituality.
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Serviam
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In reply to PabloSerna • 3:58p, 5/22/24
Ok
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Carmine Scarpacio
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In reply to fc2112 • 9:23a, 5/24/24
fc2112 said:
Keep in mind SSPX is not in full communion with Rome. So, faithful Catholics should not believe all the sacraments there are licit.

Here is what the Vatican has said:

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20046

And before y'all jump me - I have friends who are priests in this order. Yes, they believe they are fine but Rome does not.

The FSSP IS in full communion.
Nothing in the Bible gives some Pope the authority to deny a believer communion.
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