Jesse is rich
I guess what Jesus told the rich young man doesn't count anymore...
I guess what Jesus told the rich young man doesn't count anymore...
Jesse Duplantis says that being rich is a blessing
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Last: 6 mo ago by Thaddeus73
I believe the rich young man's problem was not being rich. His problem was where his heart was. Abraham, Solomon, etc., the Bible is full of stories and verses where God blessed people with material blessings.Thaddeus73 said:
Jesse is rich
I guess what Jesus told the rich young man doesn't count anymore...
Even Esau was blessed.
And Job was blessed double after his travails.
Money is not the problem. The love of money is. And that is in the Scriptures also.
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Matthew 19:23
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:26 clears that up in my opinion.Thaddeus73 said:
Matthew 19:23
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I do not believe being rich or poor has anything to do with salvation. It is the condition of your heart.
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This is a good example of "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
I would consider most Americans rich in material goods.
I am a slave of Christ
Mark 4:19
but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Thaddeus73 said:
Matthew 19:23
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
He said hard. Not impossible
Thad, what's your argument here?
Can the rich not be Christian or saved?
How do you define rich? I bet you are in the top 10% of the world. Does that make you rich, thus unable to be saved?
Can the rich not be Christian or saved?
How do you define rich? I bet you are in the top 10% of the world. Does that make you rich, thus unable to be saved?
I mean..we know of a certain Roman organization that has one guy at the top who is quite wealthy by any measure. I presume Thaddeus doesn't believe that guy is destined to hell for being wealthy.
Exactly.The Banned said:Thaddeus73 said:
Matthew 19:23
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
He said hard. Not impossible
Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".
Money can't save you. Works can't save you. Jesus is making the point that we must rely on God alone to save us because with God all things are possible.
This truth is repeated over and over again in the New Testament. You can substitute any other idol for money. It makes no difference. Jesus is making the point that it is only by God's mercy and grace we are saved, not anything we do.
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Assuming you are referring to Pope Francis- he is more of a steward of the many works not the owner.
We are all stewards. God is the owner.PabloSerna said:
Assuming you are referring to Pope Francis- he is more of a steward of the many works not the owner.
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Ad hominem attacks on me (who you know nothing about) do not make biblical truths wrong....
I think being rich is a blessing. Job 42:12 Genesis 24:1, 26:12, Ezekiel 36:11.
The problem is not the wealth per se, it's the heart. The blessing is also for the poor in spirit and the humble. The challenge is being humble while being rich.
The problem is not the wealth per se, it's the heart. The blessing is also for the poor in spirit and the humble. The challenge is being humble while being rich.
But what truth are you claiming here?Thaddeus73 said:
Ad hominem attacks on me (who you know nothing about) do not make biblical truths wrong....
If it is that this pastor is preaching a false gospel, I agree.
If it is that rich men cannot be saved, I disagree.
But based on your posts, you seem to be arguing the second, not the first. If you are arguing the second, then we need to know the threshold for richness that makes us unsaved.
Several others responded very well.
When we try to read our ethic into scriptural verses, we can find ourselves having to try an create carve outs because of a flaw in our belief system.
Rome as an incredibly wealthy organization by any measure. We also know from history that did some things (selling indulgences to find St. Peter Basilica) that, in the context of this thread would probably make Jesse Duplantis smile.
More simply though, we logically know that Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. and nearly all churches today rely on offerings and tithes to continue on. We also have plenty of Scripture verses that speak positively of others using money wisely.
So money itself isn't the problem, but the attitude and shift it can cause in us to horde it, to protect it.
So we can look at Jesse Duplantis, and see that he is/was wrong to try and get his followers to buy him a plane because that is not being a good steward of the money. We can look the whole Prosperity movement and draw similar conclusions that they are benefiting themselves to the detriment of their flock and God.
But if we are categorically going to say that rich = bad, then we need to equally apply that and not try to play the exception game.
When we try to read our ethic into scriptural verses, we can find ourselves having to try an create carve outs because of a flaw in our belief system.
Rome as an incredibly wealthy organization by any measure. We also know from history that did some things (selling indulgences to find St. Peter Basilica) that, in the context of this thread would probably make Jesse Duplantis smile.
More simply though, we logically know that Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. and nearly all churches today rely on offerings and tithes to continue on. We also have plenty of Scripture verses that speak positively of others using money wisely.
So money itself isn't the problem, but the attitude and shift it can cause in us to horde it, to protect it.
So we can look at Jesse Duplantis, and see that he is/was wrong to try and get his followers to buy him a plane because that is not being a good steward of the money. We can look the whole Prosperity movement and draw similar conclusions that they are benefiting themselves to the detriment of their flock and God.
But if we are categorically going to say that rich = bad, then we need to equally apply that and not try to play the exception game.
My only point is that Jesse Duplantis is saying something diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught in the NT.
Yet nearly every post has been calling him out for being rich. In most, the word rich is bolded to highlight it.
Yes what he did wanting his supporters to buy him a plane is wrong...but that would also be wrong if he was poor. So being rich is accidental to the story and the problems with his theology and his heart are the real issue.
Yes what he did wanting his supporters to buy him a plane is wrong...but that would also be wrong if he was poor. So being rich is accidental to the story and the problems with his theology and his heart are the real issue.
Rich is bolded because that's what the bible search engine used to find the phrase I was looking for....Nothing else...
Thaddeus73 said:
My only point is that Jesse Duplantis is saying something diametrically opposed to what Jesus taught in the NT.
Jesus also said to hate your parents and family.
Which of course, he did not literally mean.
I believe His point was, just like with money, you have to trust God over everything else. Family can become an idol also.
And family can hurt you, do bad, get sick and die. Money is worthless once you die.
The point is to put God first place and trust in Him. Not money or family. That does not mean either is evil in and of itself.
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This thread is going about the same as all upper middle class interpretations of these passages go. I'll go a bit more against the grain and say I think there is actual danger with wealth, even into a middle class experience. We use our money and technology to push the discomforts of life away from us and bring the luxuries of this earth nearer. And usually those discomforts are wasted time, increased toil, and avoiding people we don't want to be around. I don't think that is how God wants us to live - at the edge of utmost time efficiency, carrying the lightest burden, and avoiding huge swaths of undesirables. We just wrapped up a season of fasting, increased church attendance, increase prayer, and increased giving. It is a staunch bulwark against the modern march of life. For a season you have less rich food at fewer times, less kids extracurriculars, and less money to go around. Its the antithesis of 'Here's my Jesus tax, but now leave me alone' that I've seen a lot of over my years. I love it, even when I fail at fasting, and sigh at the increased travel to church.
If you read the lives of the saints they are some of the poorest people you could have ever met. Lots of stories of walking away from riches (or donating them to the church for building monasteries) to living devout lives solely for God and His Kingdom. Jesus shares a parable of the rich man who stores up enough grain to take a year off and whats the judgement for his sloth? His life was taken that night. (The funny part is - Israel was supposed to take every 7th year off as rest for the Sabbath year, and were given increased grain in year 6 to be able to do so, but they never did. Jesus's parable is dually about what money reveals about the heart.)
I think there is a real dichotomy between choosing wealth and choosing God that we all have to struggle with in this age. We're all hoping to 'thread the needle' here because we've all worked very hard to not be poor and have families to support. Our current standard of living is that of ancient kings, and the modern middle class was anachronistically just a faint sliver in the cross section of rich and poor back then.
And I'm not just here to point fingers at everyone else. During my confessions, my priest and I spend quite some time on the 'avarice' part of PALEGAS.
If you read the lives of the saints they are some of the poorest people you could have ever met. Lots of stories of walking away from riches (or donating them to the church for building monasteries) to living devout lives solely for God and His Kingdom. Jesus shares a parable of the rich man who stores up enough grain to take a year off and whats the judgement for his sloth? His life was taken that night. (The funny part is - Israel was supposed to take every 7th year off as rest for the Sabbath year, and were given increased grain in year 6 to be able to do so, but they never did. Jesus's parable is dually about what money reveals about the heart.)
I think there is a real dichotomy between choosing wealth and choosing God that we all have to struggle with in this age. We're all hoping to 'thread the needle' here because we've all worked very hard to not be poor and have families to support. Our current standard of living is that of ancient kings, and the modern middle class was anachronistically just a faint sliver in the cross section of rich and poor back then.
And I'm not just here to point fingers at everyone else. During my confessions, my priest and I spend quite some time on the 'avarice' part of PALEGAS.
Tangentially, we've used technology to increase our wealth and at the same rate reduced our reliance on God.
I think there is some symbolic irony that the night sky during the ancient world would be overwhelmingly filled with stars and could see the milky way. And as we've built our own lights (both physically and metaphorically) we've drowned out all but the brightest lights of the heavenly hosts above us. And now, we don't even really look up at the sky unless we know we can see the stars.
I know I can't be the first person to make this remark, but someone forward this to Jonathan Pageau's suggestion box.
I think there is some symbolic irony that the night sky during the ancient world would be overwhelmingly filled with stars and could see the milky way. And as we've built our own lights (both physically and metaphorically) we've drowned out all but the brightest lights of the heavenly hosts above us. And now, we don't even really look up at the sky unless we know we can see the stars.
I know I can't be the first person to make this remark, but someone forward this to Jonathan Pageau's suggestion box.
Who was the only man to attend Jesus' funeral and bury him? A rich man.
My favorite way to discussed Christianity and wealth is using the language of stewardship. The entire Earth was made by God, and it all belongs to Him. Whatever wealth or resources we have really belong to Him. We are stewards of His resources in one respect, or squatters on his land from another perspective. So how are we using his resources and treating his land? Are we greedy and covetous, taking everything we can get our hands on and holding it tightly? Or are we using those resources to do something that would make God happy?
Let's say a squatter comes to live on 500 acres that you only rarely visit and don't use. The squatter develops the land, rents it out for hunting, raises livestock, and overall generates a lot of wealth from that land. You find out about it, and this goes one of two ways. First way, the squatter sues you, threatens you, calls the cops, puts locks on the gates, and withholds everything from you. The second way, the squatter offers to pay you to continue using the land, offers to donate some money to your favorite charities, and doesn't try to restrict you from full access and use of your own land. Both squatters are rich from your land. But one is miserly and miserable, while the other is gracious and generous. That's us. We're rich off God's resources, and God doesn't begrudge us the fruits of our labor. But when we start to think that everything is ours and we deserve it, we cross into sin.
Let's say a squatter comes to live on 500 acres that you only rarely visit and don't use. The squatter develops the land, rents it out for hunting, raises livestock, and overall generates a lot of wealth from that land. You find out about it, and this goes one of two ways. First way, the squatter sues you, threatens you, calls the cops, puts locks on the gates, and withholds everything from you. The second way, the squatter offers to pay you to continue using the land, offers to donate some money to your favorite charities, and doesn't try to restrict you from full access and use of your own land. Both squatters are rich from your land. But one is miserly and miserable, while the other is gracious and generous. That's us. We're rich off God's resources, and God doesn't begrudge us the fruits of our labor. But when we start to think that everything is ours and we deserve it, we cross into sin.
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Martin Q. Blank said:
Who was the only man to attend Jesus' funeral and bury him? A rich man.
Exactly.
Actually God used Joseph of Aramethia's wealth to provide the tomb with the stone, etc.
Saints can be wealthy or poor in my opinion.
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This is where I mentally go when I think about why the Scriptures say it's so tough for rich people. Not because wealth is inherently evil, but because obtaining a significant amount of "personal stuff" in this world can really impact ones walk and preparation for the next life. Scripture talks about us storing up treasures in heaven and not on this earth.
So in the case of the rich man...it was easy for him to point out all the things he gave up...but he was refusing to give up what, in the end, he felt defined him in this life. That's why wealth is tough...because we have lots of "value" in the eyes of this world.
Edit..and I'll add. Having spent some time looking at the finances of Churches I was involved in...you find that in many cases, it's a pretty small subset of the overall Church Membership that is keeping the doors open. I don't think anybody is looking at those donors and seeing them as evil for being good stewards of money throughout their life, first to earn it, and then to use it in the service of God.
So in the case of the rich man...it was easy for him to point out all the things he gave up...but he was refusing to give up what, in the end, he felt defined him in this life. That's why wealth is tough...because we have lots of "value" in the eyes of this world.
Edit..and I'll add. Having spent some time looking at the finances of Churches I was involved in...you find that in many cases, it's a pretty small subset of the overall Church Membership that is keeping the doors open. I don't think anybody is looking at those donors and seeing them as evil for being good stewards of money throughout their life, first to earn it, and then to use it in the service of God.
In my family, the following scripture quote has been fulfilled....money rich relatives suing landowner relatives to take it away from them, through the court system...Wills be da**ed...
James 2:6
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
James 2:6
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
That is wrong and sinful.Thaddeus73 said:
In my family, the following scripture quote has been fulfilled....money rich relatives suing landowner relatives to take it away from them, through the court system...Wills be da**ed...
James 2:6
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
But that does not make money evil.
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And I will pray for you and your family.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc said:That is wrong and sinful.Thaddeus73 said:
In my family, the following scripture quote has been fulfilled....money rich relatives suing landowner relatives to take it away from them, through the court system...Wills be da**ed...
James 2:6
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
But that does not make money evil.
It's a pretty significant misread of James, but he can do as he wants.
What is your scope of context here? Almost anyone in this country (and especially those actually posting on this board) is "rich" by world standards.
Its not his wealth. Its belongs to the Church. I don't believe being rich dictates ones salvation. Maybe the love/pursuit of wealth does. The flip side is that one who is wealthy and does not help the less fortunate will have to answer. There are definitely trappings of the rich that one must be aware of and that can impede ones relationship with God.AgLiving06 said:
I mean..we know of a certain Roman organization that has one guy at the top who is quite wealthy by any measure. I presume Thaddeus doesn't believe that guy is destined to hell for being wealthy.
There are many Protestant church leaders who have much larger fortunes....
So what does the New Testament say about money? Do the NT verses say that being rich is a blessing?
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