Question about the Jews

2,520 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 7 mo ago by DeProfundis
DeProfundis
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5:18p, 3/30/24
There has been a big hubbub about communal/generational blood guilt for the crucifixion of Christ lately due to Holy Week. I understand it is an uncomfortable discussion but it does seem that there is precedent to consider that the Jews may bear some increased generational guilt for the death of Christ.

The Jews consider themselves God's "chosen people" which includes all of their descendants. If "chosen" status can be inherited, why can't guilt?

From the Old Testament, we know that original sin is inherited due to the sin of our first parents; Adam and Eve. Again, if original sin can be inherited, and "chosen" status can be inherited, why not some of the residual stain from the crucifixion.

We know that Christ's sacrifice was necessary to repair the rift between man and God and that Christ bore the weight of all of our sins on the cross. However we also know from the descriptions of Judas in scripture that he was still likely damned for his betrayal regardless of necessity.

Matthew 23:27-29 seems to point towards telling the Jews that their specific woes will continue until they accept Christ "coming in the name of the Lord"

And lastly, Orthodox Judaism maintains that due to their ancient evils, the Jews were expelled from their homeland and to this day do not deserve a homeland since the Babylonian exile. If a denomination of Judaism itself thinks modern Jews are still punished for the sins of their great ancestors, why is it antisemitic to think they bear some residual taint from the crucifixion?

Obviously this does not mean it is okay to harass, or commit violence to individual Jews. I just want to discuss this thought experiment.
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TxAgPreacher
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7:17p, 3/30/24
S
How do they theoretically get "forgiveness" if they cannot offer sacrifices at the temple?
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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to TxAgPreacher • 7:42p, 3/30/24
TxAgPreacher said:
How do they theoretically get "forgiveness" if they cannot offer sacrifices at the temple?
Repentance, prayer, acts of charity and kindness, etc.

If you have an hour or so to spare, Rabbi Tovia Singer has a lecture about "Sin and Atonement" and why blood sacrifices aren't as important as Christians think:

https://outreachjudaism.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Sin-and-Atonement-Who-Needs-the-Blood.mp3
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to DeProfundis • 10:27p, 3/30/24
Let's pretend the claims made about the crowd in front of Pilate are accurate. How does a crowd in Jerusalem determine perpetual guilt for all Jews at all times?

"Chosen" refers to the covenant made with the Jewish people. It's passed down but no individual Jew is required to accept it. It's a choice.

This:
Quote:
Orthodox Judaism maintains that due to their ancient evils, the Jews were expelled from their homeland and to this day do not deserve a homeland since the Babylonian exile
Is bull***** About 85% of Orthodox (non-Haredi) Jews are Zionists on some level and most Haredi are better described as non-Zionist who still support Israel as a safe haven for Jews.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to TxAgPreacher • 11:25p, 3/30/24
TxAgPreacher said:
How do they theoretically get "forgiveness" if they cannot offer sacrifices at the temple?
Temple sacrifices were not the only means of atonement and were only used for accidental or communal sins. Prayers and repairing the damage done by sin was always considered valid and often praised more than sacrifices. You seem to forget that there was a long stretch where the Jews whose history was written in the Bible had no Temple and were in exile. In no place is it suggested that they were unable to ask for forgiveness.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:32p, 3/30/24
Sapper Redux said:
Let's pretend the claims made about the crowd in front of Pilate are accurate. How does a crowd in Jerusalem determine perpetual guilt for all Jews at all times?

"Chosen" refers to the covenant made with the Jewish people. It's passed down but no individual Jew is required to accept it. It's a choice.

This:
Quote:
Orthodox Judaism maintains that due to their ancient evils, the Jews were expelled from their homeland and to this day do not deserve a homeland since the Babylonian exile
Is bull***** About 85% of Orthodox (non-Haredi) Jews are Zionists on some level and most Haredi are better described as non-Zionist who still support Israel as a safe haven for Jews.


A few questions if you will:

1. How does one choose whether to be a God's chosen people, doesn't the very name imply that God is making the choice?

2. What about the 15%+ of Judaism (going with your numbers for sake of argument) that don't think Jews have a right to a state due to the sins of their forefathers? Why would modern Jews today be punished for stuff that happened thousands and thousands of years ago?
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Farmer1906
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11:36p, 3/30/24
AG
The Jews couldn't execute anyone. The Roman Government and Caesar were the ones doling out crucifixions.

In the literal sense the people there at the time killed Jesus, but all people going back to Adam put him up there. He had to die and pay for the fallen world.

I don't believe the Jews of today should feel any more or less guilt than you or me.
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TxAgPreacher
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:45a, 3/31/24
S
Sapper Redux said:
TxAgPreacher said:
How do they theoretically get "forgiveness" if they cannot offer sacrifices at the temple?
Temple sacrifices were not the only means of atonement and were only used for accidental or communal sins. Prayers and repairing the damage done by sin was always considered valid and often praised more than sacrifices. You seem to forget that there was a long stretch where the Jews whose history was written in the Bible had no Temple and were in exile. In no place is it suggested that they were unable to ask for forgiveness.
I didn't forget it. It seems to me that because there is no temple, that is evidence that they are in exile now. They were exiled because they were being punished for not being faithful to God.

From a Jewish perspective that's where God's Prescence was, in the Holy place.

Doesn't that mean that God is not with them?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to DeProfundis • 5:56a, 3/31/24
DeProfundis said:
Sapper Redux said:
Let's pretend the claims made about the crowd in front of Pilate are accurate. How does a crowd in Jerusalem determine perpetual guilt for all Jews at all times?

"Chosen" refers to the covenant made with the Jewish people. It's passed down but no individual Jew is required to accept it. It's a choice.

This:
Quote:
Orthodox Judaism maintains that due to their ancient evils, the Jews were expelled from their homeland and to this day do not deserve a homeland since the Babylonian exile
Is bull***** About 85% of Orthodox (non-Haredi) Jews are Zionists on some level and most Haredi are better described as non-Zionist who still support Israel as a safe haven for Jews.


A few questions if you will:

1. How does one choose whether to be a God's chosen people, doesn't the very name imply that God is making the choice?

2. What about the 15%+ of Judaism (going with your numbers for sake of argument) that don't think Jews have a right to a state due to the sins of their forefathers? Why would modern Jews today be punished for stuff that happened thousands and thousands of years ago?


1. The tradition is that the people of Israel accepted the covenant at Sinai. The traditional belief is that the soul of every Jew who would exist was there and accepted the covenant. In other words, it was their choice. Someone born to Jewish parents who does not accept the covenant has that right and can walk away from it.

2. It has nothing to do with the "sins of their forefathers." Generational guilt isn't really a thing in Judaism. Their belief is that a Jewish kingdom in the Promised Land will be created when the Mosaich is announced. Until then they believe men shouldn't try to step in for God. It's a matter of timing, not because "they are guilty."
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to TxAgPreacher • 6:50a, 3/31/24
TxAgPreacher said:
Sapper Redux said:
TxAgPreacher said:
How do they theoretically get "forgiveness" if they cannot offer sacrifices at the temple?
Temple sacrifices were not the only means of atonement and were only used for accidental or communal sins. Prayers and repairing the damage done by sin was always considered valid and often praised more than sacrifices. You seem to forget that there was a long stretch where the Jews whose history was written in the Bible had no Temple and were in exile. In no place is it suggested that they were unable to ask for forgiveness.
I didn't forget it. It seems to me that because there is no temple, that is evidence that they are in exile now. They were exiled because they were being punished for not being faithful to God.

From a Jewish perspective that's where God's Prescence was, in the Holy place.

Doesn't that mean that God is not with them?


Jews don't believe God's presence is only in the Holy of Holies. It's just the spot where God chose to place the presence for the Temple. Jews are not being punished and can absolutely find forgiveness without a temple. See Jeremiah.
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BrazosBendHorn
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 9:09a, 3/31/24
Farmer1906 said:
The Jews couldn't execute anyone.


And yet, members of the Sanhedrin stoned Stephen to death, just like that …
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Thaddeus73
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10:04a, 3/31/24
AG
Jesus took His Kingdom away from the Jews in Matthew 21:43, and gave it to the Church in Matthew 16:19...
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Catag94
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12:07p, 3/31/24
AG
I'm not Jewish, but I am a sinner. My sin placed Him on that cross as much as anyone's. So I stand guilty. But, through His death, burial, resurrection , ascension and His Love, and my faith, I am forgiven; liberated. This liberation is available to Jews also. I pray each Jew who feels extra guilty, finds Christ and through that finds liberation.
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Zobel
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7:43p, 3/31/24
AG
It's not about who your parents were and never was. Scripturally people are sons of those whom they image. Not all who of Israel are Israel. If they were sons of Abraham they would do the works Abraham did. Guilt has nothing to do with it.

The scriptures are clear - "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin."
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to BrazosBendHorn • 12:02p, 4/1/24
BrazosBendHorn said:
Farmer1906 said:
The Jews couldn't execute anyone.


And yet, members of the Sanhedrin stoned Stephen to death, just like that …


So which New Testament author was lying, the author of John or the author of Acts?
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 12:09p, 4/1/24
AG
Sapper Redux said:
BrazosBendHorn said:
Farmer1906 said:
The Jews couldn't execute anyone.


And yet, members of the Sanhedrin stoned Stephen to death, just like that …


So which New Testament author was lying, the author of John or the author of Acts?


Neither.

I'm sure the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus for a long time. Between the popularity of Jesus(revolt) and the fear of the Roman government, they didn't have the balls to do the deed. Stephen was a relative small figure compared to Jesus. They may have felt more comfortable or just attributed it to the crowd/mob rule.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 12:41p, 4/1/24
What revolt? According to the gospels the crowd was fine with killing Jesus.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:01p, 4/1/24
Sapper Redux said:
What revolt? According to the gospels the crowd was fine with killing Jesus.


You know I'm going to have to agree with Sapper on this one
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:04p, 4/1/24
AG
Sapper Redux said:
What revolt? According to the gospels the crowd was fine with killing Jesus.


There could have been a revolt if the decided to kill him in the temple while he was teaching. Why did they need Judas? Why did they get him alone at night?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 1:06p, 4/1/24
He wasn't teaching in the temple after he was arrested
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:13p, 4/1/24
AG
Sapper Redux said:
He wasn't teaching in the temple after he was arrested
You're missing the point. If they arrest him or stone him while he's teaching, there could have been a revolt.

Why do you think they came by night? Why did the need Judas?
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 1:25p, 4/1/24
Because it makes a better story? Because they wanted to gather more evidence before arresting him? Because Judas made claims about him that they didn't know about before? Any of a dozen reasons.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:28p, 4/1/24
AG
I'll stick with my initial thought. Stephen and Jesus were two very different situations and no one is lying.
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DirtDiver
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2:04p, 4/1/24
The generation of Jews who complained in the wilderness was cursed to wander for 40 years in the desert.
The generation of Jews who rejected Jesus were cursed and their temple was destroyed after 40 years.

Jesus was handed over to the Gentiles (non-Jews) by the Jews. Both took part.

All this to say, no one is innocent AND to point blame to a specific people group I think...

is an attempt to diminish our own responsibility AND/OR diminishes that fact the Jesus volitionally gave Himself up for us..

5 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to Zobel • 2:38p, 4/1/24
Zobel said:
It's not about who your parents were and never was. Scripturally people are sons of those whom they image. Not all who of Israel are Israel. If they were sons of Abraham they would do the works Abraham did. Guilt has nothing to do with it.

The scriptures are clear - "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin."


Obviously the Orthodox do not have the doctrine of original sin, but unless I'm mistaken have an idea of "ancestral sin" or what we Roman Catholics call "concupiscence" or a predilection towards sinful behavior because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Wouldn't that be inherited?
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