Sorry if facts aren't convenient to your argument.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Rocag said:

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In American Christianity, persecution is when other people don't inconvenience themselves to make accommodations for you.

This day is every March 31st. Get over yourselves.

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As a Christian Easter Sunday is sacred and only to be celebrated as such. I understand this is a secular country and respect that.

Therefore:

As an American and a human I find transgender recognition day disgusting. I think it's icky and gross and I don't want to recognize or know them. They do not deserve violence or attacks of any kind. They should be able to live their lives peacefully as they choose. Everyone else should be able to live theirs without having to "recognize" them or celebrate them or even acknowledge them.

It's sick.

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then don't recognize the day. no one cares.

I'm so damn tired of all this fake outrage. All the outrage over trans visibility day was pure manufactured outrage. I'm so over it. It's on March 31 every year, and happened to coincide with Easter this year and won't again until 2086. so what. Christians don't own that day. It didn't take away anyone's right to celebrate Easter and go to church. it only affected people who wanted to be affected by it.

in a normal world we'd all just see it and say "oh. ok." then go about our Easter. but we don't live in a normal world. we live in a world where everything is terrible and outrageous and we have to throw a hissy fit over everything that hurts our fee fees.

and Trump, a guy who has never touched a Bible in his life (other than the ones he tried to scam people with last week of course), threw a fit on social media over this just to rile up conservatives and get them all angry and pissed off and hating everyone who isn't in their tribe. Keep in mind, he has ZERO good intentions here. He does not give a flying molecular **** about Easter. He's just pandering to evangelicals to say "omg Biden bad. transgender bad. transgender want to take away Jesus."

i'm so over this ***** everyone who's still mad about this and let it ruin their Easter is a miserable person anyway.

He's so tired guys!

Never mind we actually don't like it, so it's not fake.

And I bet nobody let this ruin their day.

TxAgPreacher said:

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He's so tired guys!

Never mind we actually don't like it, so it's not fake.

And I bet nobody let this ruin their day.

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The emotions are very real, and big. But you guys are so brainwashed you don't even realize you're pawns for the most transparent con man in maybe all of American political history.

I'm not a big Trump fan. Just the way way much more lesser of two evils.

Further proving my point.

Not really. Biden is just that bad.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Not really. Biden is just that bad.

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Detached from reality.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Bob Lee said:

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It really boils down to a wrong understanding of freedom. Here's how George Weigel explains Thomas Aquinas' view of freedom:

"Freedom is a means to human excellence, to human happiness, to the fulfillment of human destiny. Freedom is the capacity to choose wisely and to act well as a matter of habit-or, to use the old-fashioned term, as an outgrowth of virtue. Freedom is the means by which, exercising both our reason and our will, we act on the natural longing for truth, for goodness, and for happiness that is built into us as human beings. Freedom is something that grows in us, and the habit of living freedom wisely must be developed through education, which among other things involves the experience of emulating others who live wisely and well. Freedom is the great organizing principle of the moral life-and since the very possibility of a moral life (the capacity to think and choose) is what distinguishes the human person from the rest of the natural world, freedom is the great organizing principle of a life lived in a truly human way."

Eta: just to sum this up in a few words: the ability to choose is what makes it possible for us to act in a way that's not morally ambiguous. But it doesn't imply that we have the right to do whatever we want to do.

We don't think about lesser animals the same way. If a lion kills and eats a gazelle, he hasn't "murdered" it. If some animal forces copulation onto another animal, it hasn't "raped" it. We understand intuitively there's a dimension to human freedom that implies an obligation to choose the good that's not true of lesser animals.

You're using freedom and liberty as a kind of proxy for morality, but that's incoherent from your perspective. Because if exercising MY freedom, as you put it, is violative of YOUR freedom, then the same is true in reverse. Even if I just adopt your caricature of the Christian brand of freedom as raw coercion, tell me why that's bad in your view.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Thomas Aquinas nor George Weigel authored The Constitution nor are their opinions legally binding. While I don't share the same understanding of freedom as you do, I accept this explanation as a reasonable one given certain presuppositions. And I see zero issue with your church adopting this definition of freedom. The legal problem with it, in my opinion, is that there is far far too much within what is implied in that description of freedom that requires specific endorsement of Christianity. Descriptions of concepts like goodness are not universal. Were America a Christian theocracy, then I think your argument above would be valid. And perhaps you wish for America to be a Christian theocracy, but I don't know that to the case.

Freedom, as the term is generally used in modern times, requires compromise. In order for you to have freedom, I must be limited in my freedom and vice versa. Specifically, I must not have the freedom to remove your freedom. So. . . . In order for freedom of religion to exist, we must have limitations on the freedom to impose or restrict religion on others. And in order to have freedom of speech, we must have limitations on the freedom to impose censorship.


As you said - having the freedom to choose does not imply the right to do whatever we want to do. For example, you would like to have the freedom to believe and worship as you see fit. And I assume that you would oppose the right of someone else to restrict your ability to believe and worship as you see fit. Similarly, I think Biden should be permitted to endorse trans rights on Easter. And I do not think you should have the right to restrict him from doing so. This is the compromise, is it not?

Quote:

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Can it be that some people's freedom is better than others? Or maybe that some people have a distorted view of freedom and morals?

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Who gets to be that judge? You?

The posts that I responded to those that were calling for the forceful removal of the right of an individual to live as a trans person or for them to exist in society free of oppression and marginalization. And my response is to say that I should have no more right to legally oppress Christianity than you should have to legally oppress trans persons.

The problem, however, is as you just stated. You believe that your freedom is more important than other people's. And because you have magical knowledge that your views are more correct and less distorted, you believe that you deserve rights that others are not permitted to have . . . namely, the right to restrict other people's freedom of speech and religion in a way that they are not permitted to do in return.

And as much as you want to argue against it, this is the crux of the social backlash against Christianity. You simply cannot accept and respect that other people have different beliefs.

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Where is Christianity implicit in Aquinas' understanding of freedom? It's not. You're mistaken.

If you can't understand there's no compromise to be had between two mutually exclusive philosophies, we aren't going to get anywhere. It would be as if one guy is hell bent on killing the other guy, who doesn't want to die. But then you come along, and say "why don't y'all compromise?"

You also have a philosophical bias that precludes any belief in a law giver, but somehow you've fashioned moral rights and duties for yourself. Where do those come from? How have you missed this? And how do you keep missing it over and over? How do you know what you have a right to, or what are your obligations? Explain it to me.

You like Biden?

He's far and away better than Trump in basically every way.

There is no point. We live in different realities.

That's why I had to stop posting on the politics board. They went off the deep end. It's a circle jerk of delusion.

Oh and an FYI for everyone here:

Next year Easter falls on 4/20.

How dare those potheads celebrate drugs on a day which might in some years happen during Easter! I'm outraged! ANGRY!! AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

schmendeler said:

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That's why I had to stop posting on the politics board. They went off the deep end. It's a circle jerk of delusion.

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But you played an excellent pivot man

I am a conservative Christian but understand about free speech, etc.

I have 2 questions.
Why did Biden have to bring attention to this one day (when there a million other days similar to this) and on Easter?

And how can you be a Catholic if you repeatedly break basic tenets of the Catholic Church?
I am not Catholic but do not see how one can call themself a Catholic when you do the things Biden has done. Can he claim Christianity? Sure
But I do not see how he can claim to be a Catholic.
Just be honest.

I believe he has excommunicated himself from the Church with his material involvement in and promotion of one of the Catholic non-negotiable evils.

His bishop, Cardinal Wilton Gregory went as far as I've ever seen him in an interview this weekend and say he was a Cafeteria Catholic, pick and choosing what to follow and what to ignore. That was a big step, as Cdl Gregory is very reticent to speak out

dermdoc said:

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I am a conservative Christian but understand about free speech, etc.

I have 2 questions.
Why did Biden have to bring attention to this one day (when there a million other days similar to this) and on Easter?

And how can you be a Catholic if you repeatedly break basic tenets of the Catholic Church?
I am not Catholic but do not see how one can call themself a Catholic when you do the things Biden has done. Can he claim Christianity? Sure
But I do not see how he can claim to be a Catholic.
Just be honest.

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At this point can he claim Christianity? He is open rebellion to God's word. In order to be a follower of Christ, you actually have to follow Christ.

For the same reason he isn't really Catholic, that is he doesn't follow Catholic doctrine, he isn't really a follower of Christ.

Even this Australian news network is mocking Biden's density.
And also answering all the defenses we heard on this thread.

dermdoc said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am a conservative Christian but understand about free speech, etc.

I have 2 questions.
Why did Biden have to bring attention to this one day (when there a million other days similar to this) and on Easter?

And how can you be a Catholic if you repeatedly break basic tenets of the Catholic Church?
I am not Catholic but do not see how one can call themself a Catholic when you do the things Biden has done. Can he claim Christianity? Sure
But I do not see how he can claim to be a Catholic.
Just be honest.

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At this point can he claim Christianity? He is open rebellion to God's word. In order to be a follower of Christ, you actually have to follow Christ.

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I can not judge a person's heart. That is between them and God in my opinion.

But there is no way in my opinion he can claim to be a Catholic.

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It's a distinction, but it does matter. As Catholics we believe that when you are baptized in the Church, you are Catholic for all eternity. You are a Memeber of the body of Christ and the church He established.

Now, as mentioned a second ago, he is not in communion with the church. He hs excommunicated himself by his public actions.

He can claim he is Catholic, and it is true. It does not mean he is in good standing with the church, and/or following its tenets.. .

barbacoa taco said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Rocag said:

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In American Christianity, persecution is when other people don't inconvenience themselves to make accommodations for you.

This day is every March 31st. Get over yourselves.

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As a Christian Easter Sunday is sacred and only to be celebrated as such. I understand this is a secular country and respect that.

Therefore:

As an American and a human I find transgender recognition day disgusting. I think it's icky and gross and I don't want to recognize or know them. They do not deserve violence or attacks of any kind. They should be able to live their lives peacefully as they choose. Everyone else should be able to live theirs without having to "recognize" them or celebrate them or even acknowledge them.

It's sick.

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then don't recognize the day. no one cares.

I'm so damn tired of all this fake outrage. All the outrage over trans visibility day was pure manufactured outrage. I'm so over it. It's on March 31 every year, and happened to coincide with Easter this year and won't again until 2086. so what. Christians don't own that day. It didn't take away anyone's right to celebrate Easter and go to church. it only affected people who wanted to be affected by it.

in a normal world we'd all just see it and say "oh. ok." then go about our Easter. but we don't live in a normal world. we live in a world where everything is terrible and outrageous and we have to throw a hissy fit over everything that hurts our fee fees.

and Trump, a guy who has never touched a Bible in his life (other than the ones he tried to scam people with last week of course), threw a fit on social media over this just to rile up conservatives and get them all angry and pissed off and hating everyone who isn't in their tribe. Keep in mind, he has ZERO good intentions here. He does not give a flying molecular **** about Easter. He's just pandering to evangelicals to say "omg Biden bad. transgender bad. transgender want to take away Jesus."

i'm so over this ***** everyone who's still mad about this and let it ruin their Easter is a miserable person anyway.

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Yeah you sound like you're sooooooo over it

Lol

Rongagin71 said:

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And a legislative response is proposed...

Normalizing castration for children is not an appropriate role of the federal government. My bill, HR 899, would terminate the federal department of education, and send Secretary Cardona looking for a job. https://t.co/DP4tIm7XeG

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) April 2, 2024

Edit because it strikes me that those who actually watch Cardona's talk
will probably be like me and wonder "what's wrong with that?"
Well, on reflection, I realized he could instead have talked about Easter.

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Remind me what the Constitution says about the government endorsing particular religious beliefs?

DeProfundis said:

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That's because you have a morally relativist viewpoint. I doubt you'd fight for someone's right to prostitute their children would you? What about the right for parents to ground their children to their room? I'm sure you'd have differing opinions on those two subjects. That's what I don't understand about you guys, you say there are no such things as lines, and then set guidelines for where to draw them based on whatever the majority of society can agree on. Your philosophy is essentially "might makes right" dressed up in some enlightenment level gobbledygook about self-ownership.

The only way your philosophy makes sense, is in a world where right and wrong are just mere differences in opinion. In a morally relativist world you can't even tell us that what we're doing is wrong, it's just not your cup of tea. Without your ability to make a claim on us it becomes us just shouting at each other "I don't like what you're doing". Facile.

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Well, there it is. I'm surprised it took this long for this argument to pop up. Because I have honesty enough to not misrepresent my beliefs as objective facts based on zero evidence, my position should just be discarded, right?

Funny how things work out though. . . . last night, I had this dream. A revelation from the Creator of the Universe!!! The Flying Spaghetti Monster appeared to me and revealed the truth about existence, the purpose of humanity, how He created existence in 5 days, and then revealed to me all of His commandments. I'm no longer a moral relativist - rather, I'm going to just assume and represent my beliefs as fact. Also, it turns out that the REAL God (FSM), doesn't think trans people are evil. He really dislike Christians though. So through divine revelation, I know that transgenderism is not evil, but Christianity is.

There, now are we on equal footing? I've shown you that my 'opinions' are actually objectively true and given you 'evidence' that I'm correct. I mean, how can you possibly disagree with me now?

Bob Lee said:

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If you can't understand there's no compromise to be had between two mutually exclusive philosophies, we aren't going to get anywhere. It would be as if one guy is hell bent on killing the other guy, who doesn't want to die. But then you come along, and say "why don't y'all compromise?"

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Do you know what other philosophies are mutually exclusive? Christianity and Hinduism. Or Christianity and Islam. Or Christianity and Judaism. Or Christianity and atheism, or agnosticism, or Buddhism, or paganism, or scientology. Or Catholicism and Mormonism even. But, somehow, we coexist in this country with different sets of beliefs.

Here are some other things that are mutually exclusive. . . . Christian teaching and greed, hate, divorce, gluttony, laziness, drunkenness, idolatry, adultery, eating shellfish, and wearing mixed fabrics. Despite that, and even though you would say we should avoid those sins, Christians are absolutely RIPE with these sins. But yes, the gays and the lesbians and the trans people must be stopped!

Quote:

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You also have a philosophical bias that precludes any belief in a law giver, but somehow you've fashioned moral rights and duties for yourself. Where do those come from? How have you missed this? And how do you keep missing it over and over? How do you know what you have a right to, or what are your obligations? Explain it to me.

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First sentence is 100% wrong. I simply require evidence to believe something.

I've explained where my morals and values come from many times. I do so over and over and over and you keep missing it. So lets save some time and not rehash it - because you'll reject then ignore it anyway. And on the next thread we meet up at again, you'll just ask the same questions anyway.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Bob Lee said:

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If you can't understand there's no compromise to be had between two mutually exclusive philosophies, we aren't going to get anywhere. It would be as if one guy is hell bent on killing the other guy, who doesn't want to die. But then you come along, and say "why don't y'all compromise?"

---

Do you know what other philosophies are mutually exclusive? Christianity and Hinduism. Or Christianity and Islam. Or Christianity and Judaism. Or Christianity and atheism, or agnosticism, or Buddhism, or paganism, or scientology. Or Catholicism and Mormonism even. But, somehow, we coexist in this country with different sets of beliefs.

Here are some other things that are mutually exclusive. . . . Christian teaching and greed, hate, divorce, gluttony, laziness, drunkenness, idolatry, adultery, eating shellfish, and wearing mixed fabrics. Despite that, and even though you would say we should avoid those sins, Christians are absolutely RIPE with these sins. But yes, the gays and the lesbians and the trans people must be stopped!

Quote:

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You also have a philosophical bias that precludes any belief in a law giver, but somehow you've fashioned moral rights and duties for yourself. Where do those come from? How have you missed this? And how do you keep missing it over and over? How do you know what you have a right to, or what are your obligations? Explain it to me.

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First sentence is 100% wrong. I simply require evidence to believe something.

I've explained where my morals and values come from many times. I do so over and over and over and you keep missing it. So lets save some time and not rehash it - because you'll reject then ignore it anyway. And on the next thread we meet up at again, you'll just ask the same questions anyway.

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You are correct about Christian's being sinners. That is why we need a Savior.

And the God who created you loves you Kurt.

dermdoc said:

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You are correct about Christian's being sinners. That is why we need a Savior.

And the God who created you loves you Kurt.

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Of course the Flying Spaghetti Monster loves me. He told me in my revelation last night.

However, you didn't really address why Christians are so obsessed with sexual sins when all of these other sins are right there in your lap. I feel like Jesus said something about casting stones . . . . not sure. . . .

Just going to suggest it's because it's a sin they feel confident of never being guilty of.