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If you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.

Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.

And if by this discipline you are not turned to me but walk contrary to me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant. And if you gather within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. When I break your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven and shall dole out your bread again by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.

But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you. And I will lay your cities waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing aromas. And I myself will devastate the land, so that your enemies who settle in it shall be appalled at it. And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you, and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.

Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it. And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. The sound of a driven leaf shall put them to flight, and they shall flee as one flees from the sword, and they shall fall when none pursues. They shall stumble over one another, as if to escape a sword, though none pursues. And you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And you shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. And those of you who are left shall rot away in your enemies' lands because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.

But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies -- if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my rules and their soul abhorred my statutes. Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them, for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sake remember the covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

These are the statutes and rules and laws that the LORD made between himself and the people of Israel through Moses on Mount Sinai.

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Doesn't seem like he views it in a positive light.

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Sapper Redux said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Please tell me the proper context to interpret 'The one from Nazereth is boiling in excrement.' Please keep in mind that there was euphemism about Jesus Christ out of fear that if a nonjew saw what the Jews were writing about Jesus there would certainly be retribution.

And per our previous conversation, you don't believe that Jews believe in hell. Is Jesus boiling in excrement in heaven?

Again, I implore you to learn a modicum about normative ethics versus descriptive ethics. This is a central rebuke of the new holy book of Judiasm. That was written specifically in the context of rejecting Jesus and working around the commandments of God because God destroyed the temple. Bringing this up is central to jewish beliefs about Christ and Christians. What they should do. You respond with a descriptive ethic about christians historically persecuting jews -something that is obviously condemned and something Christian's shouldn't do. Can jews condemn what their talmud says about Christ? They can't.

Also, once again we have jewish authorities dabbling in summoning spirits. Learning nothing from Saul. This is full blown communion with evil while also not being able to save themselves from demon possession (because they refuse to call on Jesus' name).

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That's a long post to say you know absolutely nothing about the Talmud or Jewish history. The Talmud is not a "holy book." It's the Mishnah, a compendium of traditions from the Torah presented through rabbinic debates and cases, and then surrounded by the Gemara, which is a series of different scholars discussing the meaning or related topics of that particular chapter. It's massive. 63 tractates usually published as 73 volumes of incredibly dense material.

The Talmud is not authoritative in the way a book of laws would today be authoritative. It certainly isn't considered holy on its own. Only the Hebrew Bible is considered holy. It offers debates and stories meant to inform and guide rabbinic scholars and leaders. The precise details of Halacha are drawn from the Talmud but are never agreed upon by everyone. Whoever it is that says Reform Jews aren't practicing a religion is wrong. Their rabbis can quite easily point to where the Talmud offers a perspective that informs their views. But it just informs. The opinion or story of one person who wrote in the Talmud is just that. The opinion or story of one person. It's not binding. It's not even assumed to be historically true that it happened. It's instead meant to illustrate a point being argued in the Mishnah and provide a different perspective. Oh, and Jesus is not very present. A couple of places here and there are argued to be Jesus. May or may not be. But the Talmud is interested in Jews. And the Babylonian Talmud was written by a community that was not much dealing with the centralized pressures of Roman Christianity. Christianity just isn't a thing in the Talmud.

For the history, anything a Jew said or did (or didn't do) in medieval or early modern or even modern Europe could result in violence. Even without violence they were locked into horrid ghettos, forced to dress in certain ways, could be faced with forced conversion or expulsion, and could loose all of their rights and property at a moment's notice. It certainly created bitterness amongst many towards Christianity and Jesus, and Jewish leaders were always forced to defend against claims of secret rituals or attacks on Jesus.

No, Jews don't have Hell. The most common belief is in Gehenna, a place of punishment that lasts, at most, 13 months. The worst souls may be just destroyed.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Zobel said:

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Christianity is an ethnoreligion.

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Wait, you think Anglicans are equivalent to Jews? Ethnoreligion is really not an easy concept for you, is it?

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Wait, you think Anglicans are equivalent to Jews? Ethnoreligion is really not an easy concept for you, is it?

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I see it in my family members weekly. It's a very easy concept to understand. What's hard are semantic arguments used to claim moral victories. Enjoyed your definition of 'faith' btw…

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Wait, you think Anglicans are equivalent to Jews? Ethnoreligion is really not an easy concept for you, is it?

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I see it in my family members weekly. It's a very easy concept to understand. What's hard are semantic arguments used to claim moral victories. Enjoyed your definition of 'faith' btw…

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You're not describing an ethnoreligion.

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Zobel said:

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Christianity is an ethnoreligion.

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Zobel said:

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That's a modern take on both. In fact, the very idea of ethnicity as a separate thing from the nomos of a people - which includes their religious practices - is very modern.

Prior to the 30 years war the example you gave wouldn't have made sense. It was an intentional subordination of faith to national identity. In fact this is was produced the schism between reformed and Orthodox Jews.

Thats not what the scriptures themselves claim to be. Explicitly so, in fact - "here there is no Jew or Greek, barbarian or Scythian." When you become a Christian you become part of a new people group, repeatedly identified as the people of God, in the same language as is used in the Torah to identify the people of Israel.

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Wait, you think Anglicans are equivalent to Jews? Ethnoreligion is really not an easy concept for you, is it?

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I see it in my family members weekly. It's a very easy concept to understand. What's hard are semantic arguments used to claim moral victories. Enjoyed your definition of 'faith' btw…

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You're not describing an ethnoreligion.

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Correct, because it's so expansive that it means little more than chosen identity and people with which one associates. So more political than anything else. To be specific though, this is my experience with the reformed.

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. It's an ethnicity with a faith attached to the ethnicity and visa versa. You keep trying to force Judaism into a Christian box and it doesn't work. It's an older notion of faith and peoplehood. So yes, at any synagogue, including Orthodox, you could have people attending and participating without personally believing God is real, because being part of the Jewish people and Jewish traditions is so vital.

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When the secular and sacred co-mingle in a place but secularism drives the conversation, we are faced with a difficult truth: it's not a sacred space but a secular one. As I've said before, I've participated in Seders and elements are added to represent feminism and lgbt+ inclusion. It may at one time have been ethnoreligious, but ethnopolitical is a more apt term in our country with various and diverse religious beliefs permitted inside the umbrella. That's not a 'Christian' box, but a general spiritual perspective.

However, no rabbi worth his salt would ever be accused of certainty, so I'll end it there.

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You're forcing a Christian idea of religion and how a faith is lived onto a non-Christian people. Period. Secularism doesn't "drive the conversation." Pick up a Siddur and sit through a Saturday service and tell me how secular it is. There's less preaching than your average Protestant service and far, far more prayer and reading of scripture. You just can't wrap your head around the fact that religion and ethnicity are intricately blended in Judaism.

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I'm Anglican, all the way down to contra dancing. Go bark up another tree with this stuff and your novel use of the word 'faith' to mean not religion. You may have more in common with Christian nationalists than you think.

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Wait, you think Anglicans are equivalent to Jews? Ethnoreligion is really not an easy concept for you, is it?

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I see it in my family members weekly. It's a very easy concept to understand. What's hard are semantic arguments used to claim moral victories. Enjoyed your definition of 'faith' btw…

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You're not describing an ethnoreligion.

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Correct, because it's so expansive that it means little more than chosen identity and people with which one associates. So more political than anything else. To be specific though, this is my experience with the reformed.

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It's Reform. Not reformed. And your arrogance towards them is pretty gross. Hope you're kinder to them in person.

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