Sapper Redux said:

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DeProfundis said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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So if people just keep the oppressive systems in place and abide by what fascists want, you won't need to murder them all… that's your argument?

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Yes, if you consider "what fascists want" to be churches not being destroyed and nuns not being raped.

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The atrocities in Spain happened after the military and fascists launched an attempted coup and began a civil war. Would you like to go through the atrocities Franco's forces committed?

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I'll let you figure out what "anti-clerical" violence means, and the dates of Franco's rise to power.

Don't take my word for it, read Beever's the Battle for Spain, I can let you borrow it if you like.

DeProfundis said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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DeProfundis said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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So if people just keep the oppressive systems in place and abide by what fascists want, you won't need to murder them all… that's your argument?

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Yes, if you consider "what fascists want" to be churches not being destroyed and nuns not being raped.

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The atrocities in Spain happened after the military and fascists launched an attempted coup and began a civil war. Would you like to go through the atrocities Franco's forces committed?

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I'll let you figure out what "anti-clerical" violence means, and the dates of Franco's rise to power.

Don't take my word for it, read Beever's the Battle for Spain, I can let you borrow it if you like.

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Franco wasn't the only fascist in the bunch. And you're eliding the atrocities committed by Franco and his fellow travelers. It didn't start just as a response to anticlericalism. They actively sought violence as a means to power.

RAB91 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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747Ag said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Is it not possible to just leave Jews alone?

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The horror of people praying for other people out of love...

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You're praying for Jews to agree with you and abandon their deeply held beliefs built over millennia. Maybe stop and reflect on the arrogance in that.

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1 - The lack of self awareness is impressive.

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This proves he is self aware.

Zobel said:

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Deeply held beliefs which you, an atheist, presumably don't share?

You can't write this

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Am I not allowed to know them or have family and loved ones who have them if I don't personally agree with the theology?

I think it says something that you skip GNLS's "Talmud lesson," as though he has any idea about the scholarship around the Talmud and jump to this.

DeProfundis said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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Deeply held beliefs which you, an atheist, presumably don't share?

You can't write this

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Am I not allowed to know them or have family and loved ones who have them if I don't personally agree with the theology?

I think it says something that you skip GNLS's "Talmud lesson," as though he has any idea about the scholarship around the Talmud and jump to this.

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Who the hell is GNLS? I'll at least cop to BustUp. Have no clue who else you think I am. I do know for a while RetiredAg thought I was literally anyone right of Marx without an AgTag

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Lol. Bustup admitted to being GNLS but tried to justify the abbreviation and the accompanying 1488.

I thought Sapper was a deist these days.

Sapper Redux said:

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DeProfundis said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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Deeply held beliefs which you, an atheist, presumably don't share?

You can't write this

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Am I not allowed to know them or have family and loved ones who have them if I don't personally agree with the theology?

I think it says something that you skip GNLS's "Talmud lesson," as though he has any idea about the scholarship around the Talmud and jump to this.

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Who the hell is GNLS? I'll at least cop to BustUp. Have no clue who else you think I am. I do know for a while RetiredAg thought I was literally anyone right of Marx without an AgTag

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Lol. Bustup admitted to being GNLS but tried to justify the abbreviation and the accompanying 1488.

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I think you fell for a TysonBam sock. Dude was an actual psychopath, one of the atheist three amigos along with WoodyAg the philanderer, and John "Only credulous people deal in absolutes but there is no God" Maplethorpe.

Sapper Redux said:

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747Ag said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Is it not possible to just leave Jews alone?

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The horror of people praying for other people out of love...

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You're praying for Jews to agree with you and abandon their deeply held beliefs built over millennia. Maybe stop and reflect on the arrogance in that.

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Wait, are your family orthodox? I'd always figured they were reformed like mine, which is not really a deeply held religious belief, so much as a cultural/ethnic belief.

In any event, surely your family recognizes the many Judaisms that have existed and still do, yes?

Captain Pablo said:

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The Catholic admonishment to not blame "The Jews", current Jews, or all Jews of Christ's time for Christ's crucifixion has been around for awhile.

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Since 1965.

Better late than never.

Relevant speech from Rabbi Tovia Singer from shortly after Gibson's movie was released:

https://outreachjudaism.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gibsons-Passion-Crucified-the-Jews.mp3

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Relevant speech from Rabbi Tovia Singer from shortly after Gibson's movie was released:

https://outreachjudaism.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gibsons-Passion-Crucified-the-Jews.mp3

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Summary?

one MEEN Ag said:

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From my time on Texags, you really aren't defending the faith until Sapper calls you anti-semite. The gentlest of commentary on anything jewish is anti-semetic nowadays. If you aren't willing to bomb palestinians with the IDF you're anti-semitic.

The catholic church took the wrong step. It needs no disclaimer about the passion narrative. The correct step is to say, 'The Israel nation of the bible ended at the Bablyonian exile, the modern nation state of Israel is owed no allegiance from america or Christians, but Christians are called to love everyone. The jews of the time of Jesus were of Second Temple practice, and their religion ceased to function after the temple fell in 70AD. There was 40 years of the scapegoat ribbon not turning white when it entered the temple after Jesus was crucified. God ending his atonement through animal sacrifice with Israelites solidifying that Jesus is the final and perfect sacrifice.'

If they wanted to take it a step further they could make a comment about Jesus still maintains the title as the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Israel's Messiah. Jesus has grafted us all in as children of Israel as part of God's plan to reunify the 12 tribes. It is anti semitic to deny, omit, or try to whitewash Jesus's titles into solely things like God of the Universe.

But Sapper never takes the time to actually learn either Judiasm or Christianity.

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I would be ok with this pamphlet in the pew

Captain Pablo said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Relevant speech from Rabbi Tovia Singer from shortly after Gibson's movie was released:

https://outreachjudaism.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gibsons-Passion-Crucified-the-Jews.mp3

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Summary?

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For most of Christian history, Good Friday and "passion plays" were used as an excuse for Christian violence against Jews in retaliation for the Jews having "killed Jesus" (despite the fact that Christian theology needed Jesus to die in order to provide atonement).

The Catholic church, in the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), issued a decree stating "Jews are not rejected or cursed by God because of the death of Jesus: neither all Jews then, nor any Jew today, can be blamed for the death of Jesus", and condemning antisemitism.

Mel Gibson (and his late Holocaust-denying father) belongs a radical traditionalist Catholic sect that rejects Vatican II and believes that Pius XII was the last legitimate Pope. His movie The Passion of the Christ was alleged to be antisemitic because, quite frankly, it is. For example, Caiaphas states "His blood be on us and on our children! (Matthew 27:25)", long used as an anti-Jewish polemic. Gibson removed the subtitle for that line, but not the actual speech.

Quote:

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There seems to be this sort of "we can say that non-Jews are subhuman and that Christ is boiling in excrement but if you say the Jews at that time forced Pilate to crucify Jesus and then voted to release Barabbas, it is antisemitic" double standard.

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Why do you seem obsessed with decintextualized snippets of debates and stories in the Talmud as though it represents common or traditional Jewish belief? These are snippets I only ever see consistently used by blatant antisemites.

Anyone not aware of Elon musk's embracing of racist and far right tropes simply isn't paying attention at this point.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Please tell me the proper context to interpret 'The one from Nazereth is boiling in excrement.' Please keep in mind that there was euphemism about Jesus Christ out of fear that if a nonjew saw what the Jews were writing about Jesus there would certainly be retribution.

And per our previous conversation, you don't believe that Jews believe in hell. Is Jesus boiling in excrement in heaven?

Again, I implore you to learn a modicum about normative ethics versus descriptive ethics. This is a central rebuke of the new holy book of Judiasm. That was written specifically in the context of rejecting Jesus and working around the commandments of God because God destroyed the temple. Bringing this up is central to jewish beliefs about Christ and Christians. What they should do. You respond with a descriptive ethic about christians historically persecuting jews -something that is obviously condemned and something Christian's shouldn't do. Can jews condemn what their talmud says about Christ? They can't.

Also, once again we have jewish authorities dabbling in summoning spirits. Learning nothing from Saul. This is full blown communion with evil while also not being able to save themselves from demon possession (because they refuse to call on Jesus' name).

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That's a long post to say you know absolutely nothing about the Talmud or Jewish history. The Talmud is not a "holy book." It's the Mishnah, a compendium of traditions from the Torah presented through rabbinic debates and cases, and then surrounded by the Gemara, which is a series of different scholars discussing the meaning or related topics of that particular chapter. It's massive. 63 tractates usually published as 73 volumes of incredibly dense material.

The Talmud is not authoritative in the way a book of laws would today be authoritative. It certainly isn't considered holy on its own. Only the Hebrew Bible is considered holy. It offers debates and stories meant to inform and guide rabbinic scholars and leaders. The precise details of Halacha are drawn from the Talmud but are never agreed upon by everyone. Whoever it is that says Reform Jews aren't practicing a religion is wrong. Their rabbis can quite easily point to where the Talmud offers a perspective that informs their views. But it just informs. The opinion or story of one person who wrote in the Talmud is just that. The opinion or story of one person. It's not binding. It's not even assumed to be historically true that it happened. It's instead meant to illustrate a point being argued in the Mishnah and provide a different perspective. Oh, and Jesus is not very present. A couple of places here and there are argued to be Jesus. May or may not be. But the Talmud is interested in Jews. And the Babylonian Talmud was written by a community that was not much dealing with the centralized pressures of Roman Christianity. Christianity just isn't a thing in the Talmud.

For the history, anything a Jew said or did (or didn't do) in medieval or early modern or even modern Europe could result in violence. Even without violence they were locked into horrid ghettos, forced to dress in certain ways, could be faced with forced conversion or expulsion, and could loose all of their rights and property at a moment's notice. It certainly created bitterness amongst many towards Christianity and Jesus, and Jewish leaders were always forced to defend against claims of secret rituals or attacks on Jesus.

No, Jews don't have Hell. The most common belief is in Gehenna, a place of punishment that lasts, at most, 13 months. The worst souls may be just destroyed.