Rocag said:

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I have never once said nothing outside of myself exists. Not once. That's all been you saying I thought that over my objections. I would certainly argue that the way in which we perceive reality places inherent limits on what information we are able to gather about it.

And just because a belief includes some assumptions baked into it doesn't make it any less impactful.

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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You can believe in God despite the fact that he is unknowable. That's the whole idea behind apophatic theology. Paul says regarding our knowledge of God we speak and think and reason like children. That doesn't mean we stop trying. And yes, it's a leg up on atheists who live their life as if there were no God.

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Its only a leg up if you are correct. If you are not correct, it probably has the opposite affect. If you believe that you could be wrong about God, then you might be hesitant to consider your claims a 'leg up'. If you believe that you cannot be wrong, then there is nowhere to take this conversation.

I expressed a frustration recently in a thread where I described a hypocrisy whereby so many Christians insist atheists need to be open enough to God in order to hear him, yet those same Christians are utterly closed to any possibility that they are anything other than 100% correct about God and His nature. Its my perception that many of those same Christians hide behind a false modesty of admission that they are flawed and God is unknowable. But, in practice, these Christians think of themselves as morally superior and with a God-like infallibility in their base assertions.

To bring this back on topic, I see part of the rise of the 'nones' as a reaction to a sort of idolatry of theology. To me, modern Christianity bares little resemblance to the words of Jesus. Maybe it never did resemble the words of Jesus, but I didn't see it when I was young. Today, the perception of Christianity is that it is moving toward resembling a political and social cult where loyalty and proclamation that one is a 'Christian' is far more important than living by Jesus's words. This is why you can have a political party that hates gay people, but idolizes a thrice divorced, pron star banging blowhard that uses every moment possible to brag about himself and slander his opponents. As long as he pretends he's a Christian, he's part of the cult.

In an age of the luxury of growing diversity of ideas, modern Christianity is utterly polarizing. You either proclaim your allegiance to the cult, or you are a degenerate. And the left has responded in kind with equal polarization and idolization of their own ideals. This is feeds the accelerating apart of people. And in both cases, you may have a bit of the tail wagging the dog. In which case, it has to be on the moderates of all sides to speak up and say 'woke culture' has gone too far and maybe we shouldn't call atheists 'degenerates'.

Christianity does not reach out to LGBTQ communities, or secular communities, or other communities with compassion and open ears. And if they do reach out, it is not as equals, but rather as moral superiors with condescension and pity for the poor 'others' that haven't found God. The more I look, the less I see good being done for the sake of good. Good is done for the sake of bringing in people into the cult. I only see walls being built, I don't see many bridges. And for the first time in American history, people have options on which cult they choose to join. And more and more are leaving religion because they feel it was never a good option to begin with. Just the only option.

My sense of morality is a product of my experience, my empathy, my reason, my bias, human dignity, human well being, cultural norms, and some mixture of ethical and moral philosophies. I recognize gray areas and holes and potential issues with my moral philosophy, but I can't help but think its a good moral philosophy. But, I don't claim to be right and I don't claim it to be better than yours. Nor do I claim to have a 'leg up' on you.

Nothing about Christian moral philosophy really offends me. What is offense to me is the arrogant surety with which so many Christians KNOW they are right and everyone else is wrong. And yeah, I'm picking on Christians and not secularists and the far left wing, but this is a thread about why people are leaving the church, right?

k. Rant over.

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Quote:

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Any epistemology or notion of knowledge requires presupposition or something of the sort. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but where I get hung up is on reliability of outcomes of those presuppositions. When someone adopts the assumptions associated with science that include the concepts of naturalism, empiricism, consistency / universality, people tend to arrive at similar conclusions. And when there are disputes, resolution is often found by gathering more empirical data rather than creating additional presuppositions.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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Any epistemology or notion of knowledge requires presupposition or something of the sort. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but where I get hung up is on reliability of outcomes of those presuppositions. When someone adopts the assumptions associated with science that include the concepts of naturalism, empiricism, consistency / universality, people tend to arrive at similar conclusions. And when there are disputes, resolution is often found by gathering more empirical data rather than creating additional presuppositions.

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Maybe in a field like chemistry, but not social sciences like psychology or economics. How many presuppositions do I need to accept to answer the question "does my wife love me?" Do you think it's even answerable in the mechanical world you described?

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