Win At Life said:

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I get what you're saying, but I think the driver is that people in church are always acting the way they are "supposed" to act, which for many is phony. Away from the church people let their guard down and act more the way they really are, so it's easier to see who is really walking out their faith. If you sort out those who aren't, what's left probably has a higher percentage of being genuine.

I think that was the case, at least, maybe 20 years ago or more when there was more social and family pressure to attend church for those who were not genuine. A lot of that pressure has evaporated about 20+ years ago, which is reflected in falling attendance. But those there these days are likely more genuine, so maybe the game has changed.

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What a person believes about first principles is more fundamental than how they behave outside of a church building. One informs the other. When you're married, you're responsible to each other for their sanctification. And you're creating new souls who you'll be responsible to for preparing for particular judgement through good formation and catechesis. You should want to do that with someone you don't have to convert. It helps when you're living according to an external standard. I can hold my wife accountable and she can hold me accountable without having to appeal to personal preferences. Otherwise we end up chasing our tails.

People think about Christians as hypocrites when they make ought statements about certain behavior, and those claims wound them, and they feel condemned. It happens to me a lot where, when I write something or I'm talking with someone on the subject of morality, at the same time I recognize that I fail horribly at that thing. So discussing it can be a kind of examination of conscience. So in that sense it's healthy if it comes from a place of good will. There are mean and nasty people everywhere you go, but that's not the rule and, to the extent there are those people inside of Church it's not a comment on the faith. It's a comment on our humanity.

Think about this also. If someone truly believed that the consequence of sin is eternal separation from God, which is the worst thing they can imagine. Would not the most loving thing they could do be to try and persuade you to change your behavior?

When my wife corrects me because I've been sloughing off with regard to my prayer life for example, it stings a little to hear that she thinks so. But ultimately I know she's right and she is telling me because she loves me.

What dating apps, if any, has she tried? Just about everyone i know that met their spouse since 2010 or so has done so online. Perhaps she's not looking in the right place?

Bob Lee said:

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Win At Life said:

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I get what you're saying, but I think the driver is that people in church are always acting the way they are "supposed" to act, which for many is phony. Away from the church people let their guard down and act more the way they really are, so it's easier to see who is really walking out their faith. If you sort out those who aren't, what's left probably has a higher percentage of being genuine.

I think that was the case, at least, maybe 20 years ago or more when there was more social and family pressure to attend church for those who were not genuine. A lot of that pressure has evaporated about 20+ years ago, which is reflected in falling attendance. But those there these days are likely more genuine, so maybe the game has changed.

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What a person believes about first principles is more fundamental than how they behave outside of a church building. One informs the other. When you're married, you're responsible to each other for their sanctification. And you're creating new souls who you'll be responsible to for preparing for particular judgement through good formation and catechesis. You should want to do that with someone you don't have to convert. It helps when you're living according to an external standard. I can hold my wife accountable and she can hold me accountable without having to appeal to personal preferences. Otherwise we end up chasing our tails.

People think about Christians as hypocrites when they make ought statements about certain behavior, and those claims wound them, and they feel condemned. It happens to me a lot where, when I write something or I'm talking with someone on the subject of morality, at the same time I recognize that I fail horribly at that thing. So discussing it can be a kind of examination of conscience. So in that sense it's healthy if it comes from a place of good will. There are mean and nasty people everywhere you go, but that's not the rule and, to the extent there are those people inside of Church it's not a comment on the faith. It's a comment on our humanity.

Think about this also. If someone truly believed that the consequence of sin is eternal separation from God, which is the worst thing they can imagine. Would not the most loving thing they could do be to try and persuade you to change your behavior?

When my wife corrects me because I've been sloughing off with regard to my prayer life for example, it stings a little to hear that she thinks so. But ultimately I know she's right and she is telling me because she loves me.

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I think this is true...but you are or have been at a level of maturity to manage this. I think there are always people in any church that know and espouse Christian principles, but as we all know, we can fall sometimes. And with social media, this can lead to perceived hypocrisy. Unfortunately, for some that believe in once saved always saved, I don't think they view continued sin as separation from God and it can then be easy to downplay it. This was one point that really made me think when I was considering moving from Protestant to Catholic.

I would not be totally reliant on meeting somebody through church, even as a Christian. Our church has a lot of young people. It does not have a lot of young single people. The group of young people who go to church is self selecting for those who get married early. I would venture to guess 75-80% of the people between 22-35 that regularly attend our church are already married or engaged.

In my experience with late millennials and genz from white collar socioeconomic backgrounds, there will be 3 marriage waves: Wave 1: Engaged/married age 23-26, wave 2 (the largest wave) age 27-30, Wave 3 30+. It is pretty unheard of to be in wave 1 if you did not start dating your spouse in high school or college. The world looks down on "mrs degrees" for women in college or, but if I have a daughter I will definitely be telling her to keep her eyes peeled for good Christian men while in school.

If you want to find someone who practices their faith, the one place you're sure to encounter people who practice their faith is where they gather to profess their faith and participate in the sacrifice of the mass. That's all. Is the more reasonable assumption about those people that they're all a bunch of phonies, or that their participation in the mass is good evidence that they are practicing Christians who try to live according to God's law? My experience has been the latter.

Saying "I'm not saying they're axe murderers" after using a couple of unflattering superlatives to describe your experience with Christians. What's that about? This is a trope I hear about Christians from people who have left the Church or as an explanation for why they don't go mass anymore. It's usually just a convenient excuse used to rationalize their exit.

I don't think I ever said you should only date people at your church. I was rejecting the opposite position that you should never date people you meet at church. I didn't meet my wife at church, but if I had it would suck if I thought, "it's no use. This is all an act. What a phony!" I'd have missed out on an awesome marriage.

Met my wife in Church. It was her brothers funeral. Never met her before that. It's been almost 30 years.

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I didn't meet my wife at church, but if I had it would suck if I thought, "it's no use. This is all an act. What a phony!" I'd have missed out on an awesome marriage.

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The thing is, there's an asymmetry of information.

If you're happily married, you can look back on the one opportunity you're glad that you took.

But if you're still single, you can't know if there was one decision that you could have made differently that would have resulted in you being happily married today.

Thank you all for the responses. Things are definitely different in today's age.

Fishing Fools said:

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Met my wife in Church. It was her brothers funeral. Never met her before that. It's been almost 30 years.

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So, on your anniversary, do you tell her, "I'm so glad that your brother isn't here with us"?

Grief is nature's aphrodisiac

Win At Life said:

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There's a problem that's not just a Christian thing, but a bit more universal. Many college educated men don't mind having a wife who is not, but college educated women will rarely accept a blue-collar working man, which dramatically reduces their dating pool by their own choice. Here is where OP comes along and says that doesn't apply to them.

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This seems to be true, but I just don't understand why.

I have an Ed.D., and my wife has three masters degrees, but we're educators so we don't pull down a lot (most years I make a lot more money doing real estate part time on the side than I do teaching).

We are friends with another couple where the wife is a teacher, and the husband is an electrician who just got his general contractor license a couple years ago. He has a GED. He probably pulls in 5X what I make.

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We are friends with another couple where the wife is a teacher, and the husband is an electrician who just got his general contractor license a couple years ago. He has a GED. He probably pulls in 5X what I make.

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I think I see how he was able to meet her standards.

Maybe the best post I have seen on this board.

One thing I will say is that I think the church in general fails it's single adult folks. The pressure placed on young adults by our culture to quickly get married after college, etc. is not really combatted in church, from what I have seen. Churches invest lots of resources into marriage ministries, however very little is done to encourage and equip singles. Paul obviously even notes that it is BETTER to remain like he is. Singleness is a gift that is more times that not wasted because of this pressure to get married and have a family as soon as possible. How I wish I would have pressed more into my singleness during my 20s before I got married. So much anxiety when I could have really pressed into what the LORD had right in front of me.

One thought on dating I do have is the ultra importance that is placed on sexual attraction (it is no different in secular and religious environments). Unity around faith, doctrine, beliefs, values, etc. should be emphasized.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Unity around faith, doctrine, beliefs, values, etc. should be emphasized.

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Talk Aquinas to me, baby!

Didn't take long for the Gutter Mentality to show up. Sad.

powerbelly said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Didn't take long for the Gutter Mentality to show up. Sad.

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It's sad that you can't recognize a clear joke and laugh.

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And it was a good joke!

Inquiring minds want to know how he turned a chance meeting at a funeral into a first date.

Bob Lee said:

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If you want to find someone who practices their faith, the one place you're sure to encounter people who practice their faith is where they gather to profess their faith and participate in the sacrifice of the mass. That's all. Is the more reasonable assumption about those people that they're all a bunch of phonies, or that their participation in the mass is good evidence that they are practicing Christians who try to live according to God's law? My experience has been the latter.

Saying "I'm not saying they're axe murderers" after using a couple of unflattering superlatives to describe your experience with Christians. What's that about? This is a trope I hear about Christians from people who have left the Church or as an explanation for why they don't go mass anymore. It's usually just a convenient excuse used to rationalize their exit.

I don't think I ever said you should only date people at your church. I was rejecting the opposite position that you should never date people you meet at church. I didn't meet my wife at church, but if I had it would suck if I thought, "it's no use. This is all an act. What a phony!" I'd have missed out on an awesome marriage.

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I agree and I've never come across anyone I'd remotely classify even with hyperbole as 'axe murders'. I think it can be hard to see how someone practices their faith outside of mass by only attending mass.

As a newer Catholic, I've seen Catholics who always attend Mass, but often just as a way to 'check the box' because that's what they were taught. But its a good starting point. Now if you dive deeper into adult bible studies, or various Church events, I think you get a much better idea of the person

I am not at all marketing the idea that we should be pushing the message to stay single longer. All I am saying is that we should not be putting pressure on anyone to get married ASAP, and that the church should be a safe haven for single young adults. Marriage has become an idol for many young adults to the point they cannot live as God intended during their single years (however many God plans for them).

Not sure I agree with your comment on "extended singleness disorders people." Plenty of people are disordered in marriages that aren't living according to God's will. If a person living in an extended period of life in singleness is pursuing Christ in their lives, it should be a very fruitful time.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I am not at all marketing the idea that we should be pushing the message to stay single longer. All I am saying is that we should not be putting pressure on anyone to get married ASAP, and that the church should be a safe haven for single young adults. Marriage has become an idol for many young adults to the point they cannot live as God intended during their single years (however many God plans for them).

Not sure I agree with your comment on "extended singleness disorders people." Plenty of people are disordered in marriages that aren't living according to God's will. If a person living in an extended period of life in singleness is pursuing Christ in their lives, it should be a very fruitful time.

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The statement that extended singleness disorders is not an exhaustive one; it goes without saying that other things disorder too. The point is that your "if" is a big one: most Christian's are not devoting their lives in the same way Paul did when they leave work each day, nor do they have an avenue to do so.

In a world where the message is to stay single and unattached and keep options open, to establish yourself first and then get married or have children if you want to later; the message from the church cannot be the same. Marriage is not an idol in most churches; like Martin Luther says, where the battle rages the loyalty of the soldier is proved. That's why churches also speak out about obergefell and transgenderism. It's not idolatry.

10andBOUNCE said:

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One thing I will say is that I think the church in general fails it's single adult folks. The pressure placed on young adults by our culture to quickly get married after college, etc. is not really combatted in church, from what I have seen.

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I don't know what you're talking about. I grew up attending a Baptist church and never got any pressure to get married. Maybe it's just a girl thing.

My father was of the mindset that you should "get financially established" before you get married. But then, he had been divorced, so that may have influenced his thinking.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Churches invest lots of resources into marriage ministries, however very little is done to encourage and equip singles.

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AFAICT, this isn't a "church" problem, as much as a "modern American society" problem.

Well, the secular world does cater to one specific type of single person: Extroverted, sexually-active, and unwilling to "settle down" and be tied to one person.

But if you're unwillingly single, you're pretty much on your own.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Paul obviously even notes that it is BETTER to remain like he is.

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Well, I'm personally not a big fan of Paul, since his message is consistently inconsistent with the rest of the Bible.

When God created Adam, didn't He say "it is not good that the man is alone"? (Genesis 2:18) It's the first thing He ever called "not good". And the first commandment He gave was to have children (1:18). Though, to be fair, that one wasn't repeated at Sinai.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Singleness is a gift that is more times that not wasted because of this pressure to get married and have a family as soon as possible. How I wish I would have pressed more into my singleness during my 20s before I got married. So much anxiety when I could have really pressed into what the LORD had right in front of me.

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Well, maybe this is just one of those "the grass in greener" things, since I'm 41 years old have never been married. But I just don't agree. I see singleness as a curse, not a "gift".

I've often contemplated if my life would have been easier if I had dated in college and gotten married right afterwards. But, to put it mildly, that's not how things worked out. And it certainly didn't help to leave college (living in a co-ed dorm) and get a career in an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry (software development).

10andBOUNCE said:

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One thought on dating I do have is the ultra importance that is placed on sexual attraction (it is no different in secular and religious environments). Unity around faith, doctrine, beliefs, values, etc. should be emphasized.

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Well, I'm totally with you on that one. It's a symptom of the Sexual Revolution, of a culture that prioritizes someone to spend a night with than to spend a lifetime with.

Its amazing that we have lots of women who say they want a serious relationship and lots of men that say the same thing, but we can't reliably put them together. I know a pastor in his early 30s that really wants a wife and he just can't find one.

My son is 24 and recently got married. He met his wife on a church mission trip as he and her were the young adult mentors for the high school kids on the trip. He had a number of girlfriends prior that he met the old fashioned way through school events or other social activities. I don't think he did any on-line dating.

As a post college grad, is your daughter putting herself in places where there are quality single guys? Is her church large enough to attract/have a pool of single guys and activities where she can interact? What about volunteer activities? I met my wife at church and I specifically looked for a church that was correct on the gospel AND large enough that I could meet quality women. I know some on here will say that's shallow, but so what.

And finally, are her expectations realistic such that she isn't just friend-zoning guys that are actually good husband material?

I don't envy young people today finding a mate. The availability of porn and feminization of men has messed up a lot of guys and the I'm a princess and a great catch and any guy I date must make $200K per year attitude has messed up a lot of girls. And unfortunately, the situation for divorce today makes marriage less beneficial to men.

Texasclipper said:

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And finally, are her expectations realistic such that she isn't just friend-zoning guys that are actually good husband material?

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I have to believe this is a root cause, no doubt. We all know we live in a hyper-sexual culture and Christians are not immune. We all want someone who is a perfect 10 out of 10 in addition to being smart, funny and driven. That's what all the romantic comedies tell us. I would say very few actually analyze someone through the lens of being a spouse through the ups and downs or a parent and agreeing on different core values. On the flip side, I doubt the overall capability of young adults to be able to see a perspective that really comes from experience. All I know is that my parents never really mentored me in what to look for in a spouse; but that is something my wife and I will absolutely be discipling our son with when it is appropriate.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Texasclipper said:

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And finally, are her expectations realistic such that she isn't just friend-zoning guys that are actually good husband material?

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I have to believe this is a root cause, no doubt. We all know we live in a hyper-sexual culture and Christians are not immune. We all want someone who is a perfect 10 out of 10 in addition to being smart, funny and driven.

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Yeah, i have no idea about this particular case but I have heard that there are plenty of Christian girls "waiting on their Boaz" that are frustrated that demand for perfect 10 Boaz's far exceeds the supply. I do have a hard time believing all these young ladies can't get a date with a decent guy.

All the same, it is very tough out there for single people of both sexes and there are many factors causing the difficulties.

I met my wife when I was 26 when I was living in Houston. I hated living there and would make any excuse to go back to College Station and one of my best friends still lives there with his wife and kids. At the time they had one kid who was turning 2 and they invited me to his birthday party.

It happened to be on the same weekend as an Aggie basketball game so I went. Little did I know that they also invited one of their friends from their church who was a senior at A&M in an effort to set us up. It worked and I'm such a dummy that I didn't find out for months that it was all orchestrated.

We've been married for 8 years now and have 4 kids.

I say all that to say that we as good Christian Men & Women can help our friends/family members out by setting them up and introducing them to good people that might be a match. I'm so glad that my buddy (mainly his wife) took that chance.

I have a good Christian buddy who is 41 or so, occupational therapist, and has been wanting to get married for about 10 years now or so. He is super involved in the young (even though he isn't classified as young anymore) adult ministry at his Church, tried dating apps but has such high expectations that he'll go on one date and come up with an excuse they aren't perfect. Some people just can't get out of their own way, and there's nothing you can do to help them. But we can absolutely try to help our friends/family out when we can.

I wonder how much of it is young men being pretty immature still these days and women aren't willing to deal with that any more just to be with someone.

Of our 6 daughters:
2 are happily married (good men from good families), 1 grandkid so far
1 young professional with little time for relationships -so she tells me
1 committed single does not care for a relationship, just her work
1 still in college (dates but no serious boyfriend, that I know of)
1 still in high school (dates but no serious boyfriend, that I know of)

+++

Something I heard a long time ago was that the best thing I can do for my family is to love my wife and model a loving relationship for them. Wife and I are going on 36 years!

This topic, where to find good men, has come up before with our girls. All of our girls were into their school and school activities. They met most of their serious friends there. When they had boyfriends, we all agreed to meet them after a while, even while they were dating in HS. The idea was that we (mom and dad) wanted to see who was this person they were spending so much time texting. The saying goes that your daughters seek out versions of their fathers is not far off. The young men were hardworking, intelligent, and to some degree religious. The one thing I looked for was how much they loved others or themselves.

There was only one young man that I ever had a reservation about and I told my daughter (then just dating) that he seemed a bit too full of himself. Turns out he was bust and ended up leaving her for one of her friends. One of our daughters used a dating app, not sure which one, that matched her with a young man a few years back and they ended up getting married! So the use of technology is very common now for young adults.

Last tidbit- When I was a young man in HS, dating and such, my mom asked me if I ever intended to marry? I answered that I wasn't sure, but it would have to be the right person. She told me to begin to pray to God through the intercession of St. Joseph, husband of our Lady, for that person. All I can say is -prayers answered!

schmendeler said:

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I wonder how much of it is young men being pretty immature still these days and women aren't willing to deal with that any more just to be with someone.

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I think that's not an insignificant part of it. I take some of the blame for being a more sheltering parent than I wanted or hoped I'd be. I think social media inhibits in person interaction. Its not a replacement for good social skills, in fact I think it actually stumps them.

I have a whole host of thoughts on this that vary from conspiracy theorist to "it's all fine". I'm always disheartened about the way people tend to belittle a specific gender.. women are too picky, men are too immature etc etc etc.

However, I think one problem is.. the OP posted about his daughter, multiple people have spoken up "hey I know a person" and yet, we aren't actually matchmaking these people together. We say "the little old ladies are good at this" but why aren't we? And how many people are still willing to get set up like that?