What does "reform" mean to you?

4,818 Views | 80 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by Captain Pablo
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

dermdoc said:

"So people send themselves to hell because they choose"

There is no choice in Reformed theology.
This is a very important !


And there is no choice for those in universalism hell either.
Which does not compute that we are justified by faith and by our works, too.
TheGreatEscape
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And my saint Pablo,
Remember that when God baptized you, did you have choice that he washed you and set you apart into the blessings of the covenant community namely the universal church?
Baptism does something, no?
TheGreatEscape
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Y'all I'm discussing this out of passion for truth to be shared.
I'm not here with anything to prove.
It's already self-evident in the Scriptures.
TheGreatEscape
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And meditate on the high point of all knowledge, namely the Holy Trinity. For it all starts there.

How can God be Three and also One?
But we accept this as truth!

This is the Christian's epistemology in spiritually discerning
issues such as double predestination.
PabloSerna
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AG
#1 - I can tell you that Aquinas heavily cites the Bible in every Question of the Summa. Let's stop with the idea that he was "freelancing" in some way.

#2 - He never uses your terminology, "double predestination" because he clearly defines predestination as basically God's plan for salvation. But that is an overly simplistic view and you would have to read a good chunk of the Summa to get a more fuller understanding.

#3 - Aquinas is actually a big proponent of free will. I know this because it was one of the questions I had in 1996. I kept "peppering" my pastor, Fr. Kirby Garner, about this and other questions. At which point he gave me one of his books, a commentary on the Summa. I later found out that there was a study group meeting at (of all places) the UT Library. That was a wonderful group of faithful men that met regularly to read question by question the Summa Theologica. That is how I came upon the work of Aquinas and later the Dominican Order.

#4 - I admit I do not have the background of a theologian, so we can discuss, but it is important to keep reading. We were fortunate to have a Thomist expert/philosopher Walter Redmond drop in from time to time and explain difficult passages. "Wally" as we called him made Aquinas more accessible. I still have some of his handouts, they are great starting points.

I don't know anything about Calvin except what you have been posting, so I take that into consideration. I was responding to your claim that Aquinas was an advocate for "double predestination" and so based on your definition and what I do know- I was providing you with his words that are at odds with your understanding of Aquinas. Other than that, I admire your fire and welcome your insight.

ETA: to your question about my baptism- yes God washed away original sin and infused into my being his love which moves me to conform my will to his. But when I fall, through my fault, I know too that I can go back to God and be made new again (renewed) and that is what gives me hope.
TheGreatEscape
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Any on this list that you enjoy?

It is so typical that people love the fruit of
St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine, St. Aquinas. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Newton, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, the Apostle John, the Apostle Paul, and our Lord Jesus Christ. They love their fruit but some may never enjoy the root of their beliefs in double predestination from which all the fruit grows and flows.
TheGreatEscape
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PabloSerna said:

#1 - I can tell you that Aquinas heavily cites the Bible in every Question of the Summa. Let's stop with the idea that he was "freelancing" in some way.

#2 - He never uses your terminology, "double predestination" because he clearly defines predestination as basically God's plan for salvation. But that is an overly simplistic view and you would have to read a good chunk of the Summa to get a more fuller understanding.

#3 - Aquinas is actually a big proponent of free will. I know this because it was one of the questions I had in 1996. I kept "peppering" my pastor, Fr. Kirby Garner, about this and other questions. At which point he gave me one of his books, a commentary on the Summa. I later found out that there was a study group meeting at (of all places) the UT Library. That was a wonderful group of faithful men that met regularly to read question by question the Summa Theologica. That is how I came upon the work of Aquinas and later the Dominican Order.

#4 - I admit I do not have the background of a theologian, so we can discuss, but it is important to keep reading. We were fortunate to have a Thomist expert/philosopher Walter Redmond drop in from time to time and explain difficult passages. "Wally" as we called him made Aquinas more accessible. I still have some of his handouts, they are great starting points.

I don't know anything about Calvin except what you have been posting, so I take that into consideration. I was responding to your claim that Aquinas was an advocate for "double predestination" and so based on your definition and what I do know- I was providing you with his words that are at odds with your understanding of Aquinas. Other than that, I admire your fire and welcome your insight.

ETA: to your question about my baptism- yes God washed away original sin and infused into my being his love which moves me to conform my will to his. But when I fall, through my fault, I know too that I can go back to God and be made new again (renewed) and that is what gives me hope.


1. He does site a verse here and there and the Summa is more based on Scriptural support.
His other natural theological reflections? Not so much.
And that to which I was referring.

2. Aquinas states in three different paragraphs that God chooses some and doesn't choose some. That is double predestination. The Summa doesn't contradict on this matter with other issues stated by Aquinas.

3. You're reading into Aquinas that freewill is for the unbaptized pagan. I have already addressed this. He agreed with St. Augustine on double predestination. Aquinas just focused more on the immutable will of God and freewill.
So which will wins out according to Aquinas?
Is it God's ultimate will that wins out or is man's freewill that wins out?
Does Aquinas recant in the Summa what he said in three chapters? Something does not add up for your diatribe as an enemy of God's grace.

4. I'm not really too much into Aquinas overall. Too dry for the soul. I like his doctrine of God and his view of ultimate double predestination. But I care not to read those who reject his foundation for all things. For Aquinas writes from his base.
All the other pretenders miss this. And I believe what Calvin taught that Scripture is the lens through which we properly view the world. And Aquinas was very much more grounded to accept the teachings of Christ, Paul, and John on double predestination and other aspects of the faith in the Scripture , too.
And these self-practitioners of righteousness read into Aquinas.
Holding to their pride an adulterated fairness.
That man's freewill has the final say.
As to whom gets into the pearly gates.
TheGreatEscape
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God would have to be bummed
And be disappointed
If his salvific love
Just could not save some
TheGreatEscape
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Another way to explain it.
Is God saved us from our freewill.
And left others in their freewill
ChaplainMCH
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AG
PabloSerna said:

Doing some reading over the holidays, a book, "True and False Reform in the Church" by Yves Congar, a prominent theologian during the 1950's-60's and beyond.

He points out that the Church (RCC in this case) "is constantly reforming itself" and that the intensity of its efforts to reform itself at any given moment, is a measure of how healthy the Church is at that time. He makes clear that there is a "structural" aspect of the Church (institutions, constitutive elements) and the "life" of the Church (the faithful living in communion).

Congar would say that "authentic reform is a reform that penetrates to the heart of doctrine as a message of salvation for the whole of humanity, that retrieves the meaning of prophecy in a living church, and that is deeply rooted in history rather than superficially related to the apostolic tradition."

Citing St. Paul, when the Apostle writes, "Do not quench the Spirit, Do not despise the words of the prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5: 19-20). Congar says this is the proper way of discernment so that any adaptation not be mechanical or purely exterior, but rather to represent a development of Christian principles.

+++

I am interested in hearing some of your thoughts on "reform" of the church and if you think it is possible?



To derail this back to the original post...haha..., I fully agree with Congar. We just have to understand statements like Basil..

"Among the doctrines and the definitions preserved in the Church, we hold some on the basis of written teaching and others we have received, transmitted secretly, from apostolic tradition. All are of equal value for piety."

...in the theatre of understanding such as enounced by Blondel more recently. "However paradoxical it may sound, one can therefore maintain that Tradition anticipates and illuminates the future and is disposed to do so by the effort which it makes to remain faithful to the past."
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
Captain Pablo
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AG
PabloSerna said:

Doing some reading over the holidays, a book, "True and False Reform in the Church" by Yves Congar, a prominent theologian during the 1950's-60's and beyond.

He points out that the Church (RCC in this case) "is constantly reforming itself" and that the intensity of its efforts to reform itself at any given moment, is a measure of how healthy the Church is at that time. He makes clear that there is a "structural" aspect of the Church (institutions, constitutive elements) and the "life" of the Church (the faithful living in communion).

Congar would say that "authentic reform is a reform that penetrates to the heart of doctrine as a message of salvation for the whole of humanity, that retrieves the meaning of prophecy in a living church, and that is deeply rooted in history rather than superficially related to the apostolic tradition."

Citing St. Paul, when the Apostle writes, "Do not quench the Spirit, Do not despise the words of the prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5: 19-20). Congar says this is the proper way of discernment so that any adaptation not be mechanical or purely exterior, but rather to represent a development of Christian principles.

+++

I am interested in hearing some of your thoughts on "reform" of the church and if you think it is possible?



We've had our differences, but I really like this thread topic and your effort to discuss this. It's pretty obvious you were referring to reform in the Catholic Church, or at least that's the way I read it, and it's unfortunate, but not surprising, that this got derailed

I hope the thread gets back on track, because I would like to hear various perspectives on this

Appreciate the effort
 
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