Doing some reading over the holidays, a book, "True and False Reform in the Church" by Yves Congar, a prominent theologian during the 1950's-60's and beyond.

He points out that the Church (RCC in this case) "is constantly reforming itself" and that the intensity of its efforts to reform itself at any given moment, is a measure of how healthy the Church is at that time. He makes clear that there is a "structural" aspect of the Church (institutions, constitutive elements) and the "life" of the Church (the faithful living in communion).

Congar would say that "authentic reform is a reform that penetrates to the heart of doctrine as a message of salvation for the whole of humanity, that retrieves the meaning of prophecy in a living church, and that is deeply rooted in history rather than superficially related to the apostolic tradition."

Citing St. Paul, when the Apostle writes, "Do not quench the Spirit, Do not despise the words of the prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5: 19-20). Congar says this is the proper way of discernment so that any adaptation not be mechanical or purely exterior, but rather to represent a development of Christian principles.

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I am interested in hearing some of your thoughts on "reform" of the church and if you think it is possible?

Good post. For Protestants the word reform points us to the Protestant Reformation. We Reformed are the true OG Protestants.

And we are to constantly be reforming to God's word because of the noetic effects of sin.

That's why we Reformed have carried this saying from the Reformation. Semper Reformanda! Always reforming!

It means believe God saved you by his grace not your merits and very few actually believe it.

I agree. Grace equals predestination which also equals God's own free choosing for his sovereign will, which cannot be ultimately thwarted. Dad always gets his way and has final say over those who are seeded by his relentless plan.

God is your Father.

Not Orthodox. Doesn't need reforming.

Then why is everyone stating the the EOC accepts universalism, which clearly violates an early church council? And if you aim for a type of purgatory, I really haven't found a real position on that either from the East.

Help a brother out, please?

TheGreatEscape said:

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Then why is everyone stating the the EOC accepts universalism, which clearly violates an early church council? And if you aim for a type of purgatory, I really haven't found a real position on that either from the East.

Help a brother out, please?

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The Church doesn't accept universalism. Not sure who "everyone" is.

The Early Church Councils are the Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church is not the RCC. We don't take "positions" and give full explanations on every conceivable thing. Some things are not fully knowable and a mystery.

You will find a lot of opinions out there but not Church position on a topic like purgatory.

I would say most (all pretty much) Orthodox do not subscribe to the concept of a purgatory.

I understand all of that. Thank you for clearing that up.

Brother Dermdoc and others on here have stated that they believe in universalism that it is the EOC version.

Are they wrong? And if so, why has this not been addressed?

Dermdoc is a really good guy and hopes that everyone will receive the salvation of Christ. I appreciate his very positive outlook although I don't agree with it. I have specifically had respectful conversations with him about it on this forum. Not my job to "address" everyone's beliefs.

I would say Universalism is an American Protestant belief primarily.

The Orthodox believe God is merciful and offers salvation to everyone but not everyone will accept it.

Pretty good article

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/06/12/hell-unfortunately-yes-why-i-cant-be-a-universalist/

TheGreatEscape said:

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I understand all of that. Thank you for clearing that up.

Brother Dermdoc and others on here have stated that they believe in universalism that it is the EOC version.

Are they wrong? And if so, why has this not been addressed?

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The EOC belief is that all people end up in the presence of God which is bliss for believers and lovers of God and torment for non believers and those who reject God.

That is not my belief.

I believe that punishment is not eternal and is purifying, not vindictive.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Dermdoc is a really good guy and hopes that everyone will receive the salvation of Christ. I appreciate his very positive outlook although I don't agree with it. I have specifically had respectful conversations with him about it on this forum. Not my job to "address" everyone's beliefs.

I would say Universalism is an American Protestant belief primarily.

The Orthodox believe God is merciful and offers salvation to everyone but not everyone will accept it.

Pretty good article

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/06/12/hell-unfortunately-yes-why-i-cant-be-a-universalist/

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Thank you. But just below your comment, is Dermdoc misrepresenting the EOC position that all will end up in the presence of God in the end?

TheGreatEscape said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Dermdoc is a really good guy and hopes that everyone will receive the salvation of Christ. I appreciate his very positive outlook although I don't agree with it. I have specifically had respectful conversations with him about it on this forum. Not my job to "address" everyone's beliefs.

I would say Universalism is an American Protestant belief primarily.

The Orthodox believe God is merciful and offers salvation to everyone but not everyone will accept it.

Pretty good article

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/06/12/hell-unfortunately-yes-why-i-cant-be-a-universalist/

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Thank you. But just below your comment, is Dermdoc misrepresenting the EOC position that all will end up in the presence of God in the end?

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That is an awfully big open question.

Not sure what your goal here is. I know, for many Evangelical Protestants, conversations like this are really to push a narrative and to teach their position. You seem like you are looking for an argument this morning.

I'm not one to really argue and get into word arguments when a lot of our words don't have quite the same meaning when viewed through whichever form of Protestantism lenses
you are looking through.

I think the article addresses the Orthodox take on Universalism pretty well and addresses the topic in general.

I'm not here for sheer arguments. But I am commanded by St. Peter to be able to give a defense for the hope I have and sometimes that means providing evidence for the defense of that hope.

So…I'm going to state that Dermdoc is misrepresenting the EOC position from a Russian Orthodox 19th century professor who was unorthodox.

Reading that "Orthodoxy agrees that there is a certain purgation needed for the souls of the departed destined for heaven, but that experience has never been codified with the temporal model of years of suffering employed by Rome in the purgatory doctrine."

So there is some connection, which makes sense since the basis for the understanding is found in the Bible.

Just for clarification, it was always my understanding that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic hold the same doctrine regarding the Eucharist- namely that it is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. Is that correct?

CrackerJackAg said:

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Dermdoc is a really good guy and hopes that everyone will receive the salvation of Christ. I appreciate his very positive outlook although I don't agree with it. I have specifically had respectful conversations with him about it on this forum. Not my job to "address" everyone's beliefs.

I would say Universalism is an American Protestant belief primarily.

The Orthodox believe God is merciful and offers salvation to everyone but not everyone will accept it.

Pretty good article

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/06/12/hell-unfortunately-yes-why-i-cant-be-a-universalist/

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I actually do not have a problem with that Orthodox view. The question comes down to does God allow man to choose separation from God. Scripture clearly states God desires all to be saved. So does God allow man's free will to over ride His desire?

I honestly do not know.

But I do not believe God pre ordains any person to eternal conscious torment.

Absolutely correct. I can attend an RCC Mass in good faith and conscience.

TheGreatEscape said:

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I'm not here for sheer arguments. But I am commanded by St. Peter to be able to give a defense for the hope I have and sometimes that means providing evidence for the defense of that hope.

So…I'm going to state that Dermdoc is misrepresenting the EOC position from a Russian Orthodox 19th century professor who was unorthodox.

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Here is a link that explains what I was trying to say about Orthodox beliefs on hell.

https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

And another one.

https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/the-kingdom-of-heaven/heaven-and-hell

PabloSerna said:

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Just for clarification, it was always my understanding that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic hold the same doctrine regarding the Eucharist- namely that it is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. Is that correct?

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I'm with you on that and I'll await an answer from EOC brothers. But I don't think the East gets into the talking of the Eucharist to death in definitions and terms supporting transubstantiation. We believe that the Eucharist or thanksgiving is a mystery and should be left as it is to speak for itself with the real presence as we are caught up in the Godhead whenever we partake in faith.

I'm pretty sure it's just the RCC and EO that have the "real presence" doctrine that Jesus stipulated in John 6. To all others it is symbolic.

Dermdoc, that is not universalism.
I see the EOC view as possibly leaning more towards a type of
annihilationism rather than universalism. This is clear and distinct from everyone gets into heaven in the end. For nothing in the EOC position in these three articles suggests that everyone ends up in heaven after the resurrection.
For universalism was rejected in an early church counsel of the EOC. Thus universalism and temporary hell cannot both be true at the same time.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Then why is everyone stating the the EOC accepts universalism, which clearly violates an early church council? And if you aim for a type of purgatory, I really haven't found a real position on that either from the East.

Help a brother out, please?

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Disagree.

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

TheGreatEscape said:

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Dermdoc, that is not universalism.
I see the EOC view as possibly leaning more towards a type of
annihilationism rather than universalism. This is clear and distinct from everyone gets into heaven in the end. For nothing in the EOC position in these three articles suggests that everyone ends up in heaven after the resurrection.
For universalism was rejected in an early church counsel of the EOC. Thus universalism and temporary hell cannot both be true at the same time.

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I never said the Orthodox believed in universal reconciliation.

Read the two links I provided if you have not describing Orthodox views on heaven and hell.

Oh I see. This needed more clarification.
You do hold to the concept of hell in the EOC.
But you do hold to universalism, to which is against the EOC.

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up for both me and the board.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Oh I see. This needed more clarification.
You do hold to the concept of hell in the EOC.
But you do hold to universalism, to which is against the EOC.

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up for both me and the board.

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The Orthodox concept of hell is totally different than the traditional Western concept. Did you read the links? Explains it well.

And to my knowledge, the Eastern Orthodox Church does not explicitly consider ultimate reconciliation a heresy.

It does to my knowledge consider double predestination a heresy.

Don't care too much what the EOC stance is on dp, they have two church fathers and a patriarch who held to DP.
And I already knew their stance on the matter around three years ago. Always inserting your angst and I appreciate it because it gives me the opportunity to respond.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never changes, right?

From the 5th ecumenical council:

{9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.}

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

TheGreatEscape said:

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Don't care too much what the EOC stance is on dp, they have two church fathers and a patriarch who held to DP.
And I already knew their stance on the matter around three years ago. Always inserting your angst and I appreciate it because it gives me the opportunity to respond.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never changes, right?

From the 5th ecumenical council:

{9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.}

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

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Fair enough. Did you read the entire article?

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Don't care too much what the EOC stance is on dp, they have two church fathers and a patriarch who held to DP.
And I already knew their stance on the matter around three years ago. Always inserting your angst and I appreciate it because it gives me the opportunity to respond.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never changes, right?

From the 5th ecumenical council:

{9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.}

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

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Fair enough. Did you read the entire article?

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Enough to find out that the EOC never changes in their changes….

TheGreatEscape said:

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Don't care too much what the EOC stance is on dp, they have two church fathers and a patriarch who held to DP.
And I already knew their stance on the matter around three years ago. Always inserting your angst and I appreciate it because it gives me the opportunity to respond.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never changes, right?

From the 5th ecumenical council:

{9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.}

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

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And there are Orthodox saints who believed in ultimate reconciliation.

Not to mention orthodox folks like David Bentley Hart.

Just like there are Reformed who do not believe in double predestination or limited atonement.

It is not that cut and dried.

And the majority of theologians have the same angst about dp as I do.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Don't care too much what the EOC stance is on dp, they have two church fathers and a patriarch who held to DP.
And I already knew their stance on the matter around three years ago. Always inserting your angst and I appreciate it because it gives me the opportunity to respond.

The Eastern Orthodox Church never changes, right?

From the 5th ecumenical council:

{9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of demons and impious human beings is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, and that there will be a restoration of demons and impious human beings, let him be anathema.}

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/

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Fair enough. Did you read the entire article?

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Enough to find out that the EOC never changes in their changes….

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I believe you would learn something if you read the whole article.

From what I read, there was some questioning of the authority of the civil authority's counsel of high ranking clergymen.

But in this article, the writer states that while hell is believed to not be eternal by the EOC, universalism is not acceptable to many in the EOC to which he is writing; judging by the contextual statements. Therefore, you do not hold to the EOC concept of hell because you are an universalist. And universalism isn't anymore the belief of the EOC than purgatory is.

https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2021/01/21/orthodoxy-universal-salvation-are-the-two-compatible/

TheGreatEscape said:

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From what I read, there was some questioning of the authority of the civil authority's counsel of high ranking clergymen.

But in this article, the writer states that while hell is believed to not be eternal by the EOC, universalism is not acceptable to many in the EOC to which he is writing; judging by the contextual statements. Therefore, you do not hold to the EPC concept of hell because you are an universalist. And universalism isn't anymore the belief of the EOC than purgatory is.

https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2021/01/21/orthodoxy-universal-salvation-are-the-two-compatible/

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From my reading, it says that Orthodox universalists agree with me that there is punishment or "hell" but it is not eternal.

Ultimate reconciliation believers, like me, still believe that Christ is the only way and that there is corrective punishment that is not eternal.

And I believe the Pope was not even there at the 5th council when all this went down. It was basically dictated by Justinian who has been said to have been motivated by power and keeping fear in his subjects. Lots of politics involved.

Doesn't matter. The counsel still stands just like Augustine accepted the baptism of unbelieving donatists.

And Justinian was an Orthodox believer. We are not even talking about heretics.

Moreover, that is what I was stating. You believe in hell being temporal like the apparently current changing EOC, but the EOC does not believe that the unregenerate go from hell to heaven. That's what you believe.
Thus you do not hold to the EOC view of hell. So please stop stating this as a support mechanism.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Doesn't matter. The counsel still stands just like Augustine accepted the baptism of unbelieving donatists.

And Justinian was an Orthodox believer. We are not even talking about heretics.

Moreover, that is what I was stating. You believe in hell being temporal like the apparently current changing EOC, but the EOC does not believe that the unregenerate go from hell to heaven. That's what you believe.
Thus you do not hold to the EOC view of hell. So please stop stating this as a support mechanism.

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I am not sure you and I are defining "universalism" the same way.

It is not everybody just goes to Heaven. There is just punishment for correction but ultimately there is reconciliation.