For God so loved the world, that He sent His only Son. That whosever believed on Him should have everlasting life.

And the elect chosen before time are the only ones to escape eternal conscious hell.

The general call is for all indiscriminately. The special call is for all who obey the Gospel having been elected before the foundations of the world in Love (Ephesians 1:3-5).

TheGreatEscape said:

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The general call is for all indiscriminately. The special call is for all who obey the Gospel having been elected before the foundations of the world in Love (Ephesians 1:3-5).

---

So what happens to the ones who are "passed over" according to your theology?

And what if that is your child?

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

And it is not that I do not like that about God. It is about the character of God which you do not like.

If God was like you believe He would never have come down like Jesus did.

If you really know the Lord, everyday is Christmas. He is with you 24/7.

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

The problem with Protestantism. You can't all be right. You can't all be Brothers in Christ. You can't dismember the Body of Christ and be Brothers in Him.

As an Orthodox I find a "communion of sorts" with many Protestants. Many I do not.

I agree you you more than I do most. I appreciate your very positive outlook even if I don't fully share in it.

dermdoc said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

And it is not that I do not like that about God. It is about the character of God which you do not like.

If God was like you believe He would never have come down like Jesus did.

---

All the way from the Reformers until the late 19th Century, this is the way.

And since we are concerned with what everyone else is doing, look at the rise of theological liberalism since the 1920's.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

And it is not that I do not like that about God. It is about the character of God which you do not like.

If God was like you believe He would never have come down like Jesus did.

---

All the way from the Reformers until the late 19th Century, this is the way.

And since we are concerned with what everyone else is doing, look at the rise of theological liberalism since the 1920's.

---

"Theological liberalism" has always been around. Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and many more had very different theologies than St. Augustine.

Sounds like you are equating "theological liberalism" with any non Augustinian or Augustine like theology.

Augustine even wrote about Universal Reconciliation views in the early church. There were 7 such views and the only one he called a heresy was the one where Satan was reconciled.

And Augustine called them "many" and "tender hearted". Not liberals.

TheGreatEscape said:

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The general call is for all indiscriminately. The special call is for all who obey the Gospel having been elected before the foundations of the world in Love (Ephesians 1:3-5).

---

This is a misread of Ephesians 1.

Note how he starts his letter:

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you try and read it the way you are, then you have to limit Ephesians 1:3-5 specifically and solely to those exact readers who heard this letter the very first time. Otherwise you run into a problem because multiple groups of Christians would have heard this which means the elect is always expanding as this letter is read to that group...

So the better way to read this is that if you are Christian, you are part of the elect that Paul is writing this letter to.

It is addressed to saints who were chosen in love before the foundations of the world. No where in the text is faith a prerequisite or future faith a prerequisite on the part of man in the text.

And that is the way it is qualified in verses 3-15.

Actually, Ephesians was a circulated letter.

Ephesians 1:11-13 (ESV)

"11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of his WILL, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"

Ephesians 1 is one sentence. It all connects and reaches back and forth and qualifies itself.

And also, what do you want me to do?

When I give background on how the Apostle Paul is not cutting off the Edomites, do I not post the quotes?

Do I reword the quotes in my own words?
Should I also remove the links?

This is ridiculous. But just tell me what to do?

Show me specifically what you all are referring to?

When other people post an entire page, then I responded with copy and paste as well.

And when I made the OP for the "What is a Jew? And what is Israel in the new covenant, there was not one quote, save only the Scriptures. And I could care less what you think about that. I'm a biblicist.

And in the Cromwell thread; was I not supposed to quote from sources on history?
I just provided a ton of primary sources from Newspapers in England during the Presbyterian War.
Are those not allowed either?

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

And it is not that I do not like that about God. It is about the character of God which you do not like.

If God was like you believe He would never have come down like Jesus did.

---

All the way from the Reformers until the late 19th Century, this is the way.

And since we are concerned with what everyone else is doing, look at the rise of theological liberalism since the 1920's.

---

"Theological liberalism" has always been around. Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and many more had very different theologies than St. Augustine.

Sounds like you are equating "theological liberalism" with any non Augustinian or Augustine like theology.

Augustine even wrote about Universal Reconciliation views in the early church. There were 7 such views and the only one he called a heresy was the one where Satan was reconciled.

And Augustine called them "many" and "tender hearted". Not liberals.

---

Actually, what I mean here is that we Confessionally Reformed were conservative mainstream historic Protestants from the Reformation in the 1500's all the way up until the late 1800's. More than 500 years of consistent conservatism as a whole.
Then you started to see a refusal in the adherence of the Confessions of the Dutch Reformed, the Presbyterians, and the Anglicans, and the Reformed Baptists in the United States.
It didn't turn out too well at all when we lost sense of the doctrines of Grace.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

We claim the covenant promises over our children by the faith God has granted us. We do our best to witness.

But the rest in God's decree. " l don't like that about God!"

Romans 9:20 (ESV)

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3433485

It's all right in the link above before you say that's not what the text means to me. Doesn't matter what the text means to you personally. Matters what the text originally meant. Then you deal with the application phase.

---

So basically your interpretation is right and mine and the majority of theologians are wrong. Got it.

---

And it is not that I do not like that about God. It is about the character of God which you do not like.

If God was like you believe He would never have come down like Jesus did.

---

All the way from the Reformers until the late 19th Century, this is the way.

And since we are concerned with what everyone else is doing, look at the rise of theological liberalism since the 1920's.

---

"Theological liberalism" has always been around. Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and many more had very different theologies than St. Augustine.

Sounds like you are equating "theological liberalism" with any non Augustinian or Augustine like theology.

Augustine even wrote about Universal Reconciliation views in the early church. There were 7 such views and the only one he called a heresy was the one where Satan was reconciled.

And Augustine called them "many" and "tender hearted". Not liberals.

---

Actually, what I mean here is that we Confessionally Reformed were conservative mainstream historic Protestants from the Reformation in the 1500's all the way up until the late 1800's. More than 500 years of consistent conservatism as a whole.
Then you started to see a refusal in the adherence of the Confessions of the Dutch Reformed, the Presbyterians, and the Anglicans, and the Reformed Baptists in the United States.
It didn't turn out too well at all when we lost sense of the doctrines of Grace.

---

I consider myself a conservative Protestant and agree with a lot of your post. But I am not reformed because of theological disagreements.

Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

---

Not insecure in the least. But the God I worship and know loves all men and does not preordain some to eternal torment.

And are you actually saying that only Reformed believers can be secure in God?

TheGreatEscape said:

---

It is addressed to saints who were chosen in love before the foundations of the world. No where in the text is faith a prerequisite or future faith a prerequisite on the part of man in the text.

And that is the way it is qualified in verses 3-15.

---

Again, the problem you have is that to make the narrow argument, you are saying it's only the Ephesians at that moment who were chosen. Or you have to take a broader stance that everybody who hears the letter is chosen, which always expands it to the point where you would essentially be arguing that everybody who simply heard this letter was chosen.

Additionally, we can look at the lineage of Jesus in Matthew 1 to see that God has a chosen people, Israel, and yet when we look at the women who are specifically called out, we see the grafting of other groups (Canaanites and Moabites for example) into the lineage of God.

Further, we of course know that through Jesus Christ, the gentiles, who were once "excluded" are now included in his chosen people.

So what we are left with is saying that the chosen people are those who hear the Word of God (everyone) and do not resist (less than everyone).

But to make the claim that Paul is saying God is actively excluding people in the beginning of this letter doesn't hold.

88Warrior said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

---

Your shotgun blasting across any and all R&P threads is getting old since you joined back in July…Show some respect for the thread titles…This was meant as a simple well wishing to everyone for Christmas Day …It instead devolved into your usual "I'm right you're wrong" lectures…This has gotten old quick……

---

All I stated was that Isaac Watts was Reformed.
Why are you blaming me?
I was getting attacked. Just war.

And Dermdoc has described himself as a Baptist several times. Then he pulls out the well…I'm a Christian and that's how I think of it…That is label hypocrisy…of course, we are all Christians objectively who hold to the creeds.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I want liberty to make simple statements.

You are being hypocritical, too, brother.

Here:

And then here…

Then I return it back to Christmas and against antisemitism with this. Then I'm attacked again.

I do not remember constantly saying I was a Baptist. And I actually go to a non denominational church as I have problems with SBC leadership.

And how is it an attack if I post simple questions about Reformed theology? You are acting like a theology bully and for Pete's sake, it is not a "war". Get over yourself.

I will stop posting anything about the Reformed theology if you will stop, deal?

And for the record, I am a Christian. Christ is where I get my identity. Not from any man's theology.

I attended a Baptist church.Now I attend a nondenominational one. But my identity comes from Christ.

dermdoc said:

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I do not remember constantly saying I was a Baptist. And I actually go to a non denominational church as I have problems with SBC leadership.

I will stop posting anything about the Reformed theology if you will, deal?

And for the record, I am a Christian. Christ is where I get my identity. Not from any man's theology.

I attended a Baptist church.Now I attend a nondenominational one. But my identity comes from Christ.

---

All of our identity is in Christ. But here you go again using another label that you are allowed to use.

You are of the nondenominational label.
You are of the nondenomination denomination.
I am of the Reformed. But…no I'm not of Paul or Apollos. I'm of Christ.
It's unfortunate that labels must exist…Orthodox mention their label and theological beliefs here all the time.
Catholics mention their label and theological beliefs here all the time.

And you see, everyone. I'm not even allowed to bring up that so and so was reformed or quote from the Bible without being attacked. And when I do respond with hermeneutical validation, some cover their eyes with their hand as a small child afraid of a horror movie scene and peak through their fingers to see what will happen next; when it comes to the manifold wisdom of God. But no true response returned, save only Reductio Ad Absurdum attacks, character attacks, and left handed insults.

88Warrior said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

---

Your shotgun blasting across any and all R&P threads is getting old since you joined back in July…Show some respect for the thread titles…This was meant as a simple well wishing to everyone for Christmas Day …It instead devolved into your usual "I'm right you're wrong" lectures…This has gotten old quick……

---

I really appreciate the "I'm right you're wrong" declaration here. Thank you 88Warrior.

It's very difficult to let someone sit in their own theology, especially on a forum such as this built for the purpose of expressing our opinions. I try to remember that not everything is waiting for my opinion. I can happily let someone's experience inform them without having to insist they have an understanding of my own opinion.

With that, I would ask that should I behave in a way that is not building you up, then let me know.

Peace my fellow God-loved people and Merry Christmas.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

I do not remember constantly saying I was a Baptist. And I actually go to a non denominational church as I have problems with SBC leadership.

I will stop posting anything about the Reformed theology if you will, deal?

And for the record, I am a Christian. Christ is where I get my identity. Not from any man's theology.

I attended a Baptist church.Now I attend a nondenominational one. But my identity comes from Christ.

---

All of our identity is in Christ. But here you go again using another label that you are allowed to use.

You are of the nondenominational label.
You are of the nondenomination denomination.
I am of the Reformed. But…no I'm not of Paul or Apollos. I'm of Christ.
It's unfortunate that labels must exist…Orthodox mention their label and theological beliefs here all the time.
Catholics mention their label and theological beliefs here all the time.

And you see, everyone. I'm not even allowed to bring up that so and so was reformed or quote from the Bible without being attacked. And when I do respond with hermeneutical validation, some cover their eyes with their hand as a small child afraid of a horror movie scene and peak through their fingers to see what will happen next; when it comes to the manifold wisdom of God. But no true response returned, save only Reductio Ad Absurdum attacks, character attacks, and left handed insults.

---

Wow. I do not see that at all. It is like a persecution complex.

Okay, I will say nothing about Reformed theology. But seriously, I did not mean to attack you at all. I just question Reformed theology.

Nothing personal meant at all

ChaplainMCH said:

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88Warrior said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

---

Your shotgun blasting across any and all R&P threads is getting old since you joined back in July…Show some respect for the thread titles…This was meant as a simple well wishing to everyone for Christmas Day …It instead devolved into your usual "I'm right you're wrong" lectures…This has gotten old quick……

---

I really appreciate the "I'm right you're wrong" declaration here. Thank you 88Warrior.

It's very difficult to let someone sit in their own theology, especially on a forum such as this built for the purpose of expressing our opinions. I try to remember that not everything is waiting for my opinion. I can happily let someone's experience inform them without having to insist they have an understanding of my own opinion.

With that, I would ask that should I behave in a way that is not building you up, then let me know.

Peace my fellow God-loved people and Merry Christmas.

---

Amen. I will be better.

88Warrior said:

---

ChaplainMCH said:

---

88Warrior said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Brother, please stop being insecure about God.

---

Your shotgun blasting across any and all R&P threads is getting old since you joined back in July…Show some respect for the thread titles…This was meant as a simple well wishing to everyone for Christmas Day …It instead devolved into your usual "I'm right you're wrong" lectures…This has gotten old quick……

---

I really appreciate the "I'm right you're wrong" declaration here. Thank you 88Warrior.

It's very difficult to let someone sit in their own theology, especially on a forum such as this built for the purpose of expressing our opinions. I try to remember that not everything is waiting for my opinion. I can happily let someone's experience inform them without having to insist they have an understanding of my own opinion.

With that, I would ask that should I behave in a way that is not building you up, then let me know.

Peace my fellow God-loved people and Merry Christmas.

---

No doubt this is a place for debates and opinions. I enjoy reading and occasionally putting my two cents in..but just not on EVERY single thread…some threads are started as a respite from the day to day arguments that tend to drag us all down…Merry Christmas Chaplain!

---

Another amen.

New Year's resolution will be not to always having to be right.

God bless and shalom.