1 and 2 Maccabees was part of the original canon of the bible infallibly declared by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD at the Council of Rome.. It was the reformers 1100+ years later who removed it to reinforce their doctrine...Quote:
Maccabees was added to reinforce Rome's error.
The concept of Purgatory in the Bible...
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Thaddeus73 said:1 and 2 Maccabees was part of the original canon of the bible infallibly declared by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD at the Council of Rome.. It was the reformers 1100+ years later who removed it to reinforce their doctrine...Quote:
Maccabees was added to reinforce Rome's error.
So I figured I would bring over some of the information from the link I provided on "Did Jesus or The New Testament Authors Quote from The Apocryphal Books?"
Matthew 6:19-20
"store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal."
James 5:3
- Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days.
Sirach 29:10-11
Lose your silver for the sake of a brother or a friend, and do not let it rust under a stone and be lost. Lay up your treasure according to the commandments of the Most High, and it will profit you more than gold.
(There is no known OT passage that comes close to Sirach. This is partly due to the fact that there is no concept of heaven in the OT. The Christian concepts of heaven and hell come during the intertestamental period and are found in the Apocrypha, Enoch, and many similar books like the Testament of Levi.)
Matthew 27:43
- if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries.
Wisdom 2:18
- if the righteous man is God's child, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
(This passage speaks for itself. Where did Jesus' crucifiers get such an idea if it does not show up in the OT? The Greek wording between Matthew and Wisdom is strikingly similar.)
Luke 1:52
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly.
Sirach 10:14
The Lord overthrows the thrones of rulers, and enthrones the lowly in their place.
(This one has no exact match in the OT but is certainly a common idea.)
Revelation 1:4
- Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.
Tobit 12:15
- "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord."
(It is incredibly important to understand that angelology was not a feature in the OT. Named angels only show up the book of Daniel, which I will reiterate, was written contemporaneously with the Apocrypha and therefore they share some ideas. However, the name of the many angels and "angelology" was something that was highly detailed in the Apocrypha and similar works and is a main feature in the NT. For sure the NT authors got these ideas from somewhere and it was not the OT.)
Revelation 8:3-4
- And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Tobit 12:12,15
So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I (the angel Raphael) who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.
(The idea that angels carried the prayers to God does not appear in the OT. Nothing even close. In the OT prayers are said to have risen up to God so that he can hear them.)
Matthew 16:18
- "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
Wisdom 16:13
- For you have power over life and death; you lead mortals down to the gates of Hades and back again.
(It should be mentioned that the Hebrew references to the gates of Sheol in Job 38:17 and Isaiah 38:10 is translated to "gates of Hades" in the Septuagint. The Hebrew OT nowhere uses the phrase "gates of Hades" because it's a Greek. Hades and Sheol were not the same thing.)
John 6:35-59
- Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
Sirach 24:21
Those who eat of me (wisdom) will hunger for more, and those who drink of me will thirst for more.
(This is not a quote but an intentional play on ideas. The only OT passage that comes close is Isaiah 55:1-3 and 49:10. It is possible that Jesus was referencing a common idea that coincidentally shows up in Sirach too.)
John 10:22
- At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter …. (festival not in OT)
1 Maccabees 4:59
- Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev.
(This festival does not appear in the OT at all. It is called Hanukkah today but it did not exist before the period of the Maccabees. The oldest known text documenting this feast is from the Apocrypha.)
Acts 1:7
He replied, "It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.
1 Thessalonians 5:1
- Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you.
Wisdom 8:8
- she (wisdom) has foreknowledge of signs and wonders and of the outcome of seasons and times.
(There is little doubt that "times and seasons" is a generic phrase that shows up Daniel 2:21. Daniel was the only book of the OT to contain similar eschatology to that of the Apocrypha because they were written in a similar time period. In fact, the apocrypha contains additions to Daniel that are not in the Masoretic Text because the book was still being expanded during the Aramaic period of the post-exile. This accounts for the use of Aramaic in roughly half of Daniel. Moreover, the "times and seasons" of Daniel is referring to literal times and seasons in the calendar sense, whereas the other passages referenced are speaking metaphorically about prophetic happenings.)
Romans 9:21
- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use?
Wisdom 15:7
- A potter kneads the soft earthand laboriously molds each vessel for our service,fashioning out of the same clayboth the vessels that serve clean uses and those for contrary uses, making all alike;but which shall be the use of each of themthe worker in clay decides.
(There simply is not an OT counterpart for Romans 9:21. This is clearly a reference to Wisdom)
Ephesians 6:13-17
- Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Wisdom 5:17-20
- The Lord will take his zeal as his whole armor,and will arm all creation to repel his enemies;he will put on righteousness as a breastplate,and wear impartial justice as a helmet;he will take holiness as an invincible shield,and sharpen stern wrath for a sword,and creation will join with him to fight against his frenzied foes.
(While it would be a stretch to say Paul was quoting from Wisdom, there is little doubt that Paul is using a shared imagery that, in its combined format, only appears in the Apocrypha. As rightly pointed out in the comments, Isaiah does used some similar phrases, but only in Wisdom do we see the imagery of a completed set of armor and its elements.)
Hebrews 11:5
For it was attested before he was taken away that "he had pleased God."
Wisdom 4:10
- There were some who pleased God and were loved by him, and while living among sinners were taken up.
Sirach 44:16
- Enoch pleased the Lord and was taken up, an example of repentance to all generations.
(Enoch was an enormous figure to the messianic movement. The fact that he appears in the Apocrypha numerous times and the book in his name is quoted by James (the brother of Jesus) means that we have to account for his popularity in some way. His mention in the OT is so brief that one could hardly believe that Hebrew 11:5 is referencing any OT passage concerning Enoch. Furthermore, the Greek wording in all 3 passages is identical. The phrase "please the Lord" is never spoken about Enoch in the OT. Moreover, the author of Hebrews indicates that something was written and "attesting" to Enoch pleasing God. If not the OT what else could it be?)
Hebrews 11:35
- Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection.
2 Maccabees 7:13-14
- After he too had died, they maltreated and tortured the fourth in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "One cannot but choose to die at the hands of mortals and to cherish the hope God gives of being raised again by him. But for you there will be no resurrection to life!"
(The "Hall of Faith" discourse in Hebrews clearly references the martyrdom of the 7 brothers in 2 Maccabees. A full reading of chapter 7 in 1 Maccabees is recommended.)
Matthew 7:16,20
"you will know them by their fruits"
Sirach 27:6
- Its fruit discloses the cultivation of a tree.
(This is a glancing reference but nothing like it appears in the OT.)
https://dustoffthebible.com/Blog-archive/2019/09/17/does-the-new-testament-or-jesus-quote-from-the-apocryphal-books/
ETA: formatting and to add that there are MANY, MANY more examples if you go to the link above. Cheers.
Matthew 6:19-20
"store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal."
James 5:3
- Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days.
Sirach 29:10-11
Lose your silver for the sake of a brother or a friend, and do not let it rust under a stone and be lost. Lay up your treasure according to the commandments of the Most High, and it will profit you more than gold.
(There is no known OT passage that comes close to Sirach. This is partly due to the fact that there is no concept of heaven in the OT. The Christian concepts of heaven and hell come during the intertestamental period and are found in the Apocrypha, Enoch, and many similar books like the Testament of Levi.)
Matthew 27:43
- if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries.
Wisdom 2:18
- if the righteous man is God's child, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
(This passage speaks for itself. Where did Jesus' crucifiers get such an idea if it does not show up in the OT? The Greek wording between Matthew and Wisdom is strikingly similar.)
Luke 1:52
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly.
Sirach 10:14
The Lord overthrows the thrones of rulers, and enthrones the lowly in their place.
(This one has no exact match in the OT but is certainly a common idea.)
Revelation 1:4
- Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.
Tobit 12:15
- "I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord."
(It is incredibly important to understand that angelology was not a feature in the OT. Named angels only show up the book of Daniel, which I will reiterate, was written contemporaneously with the Apocrypha and therefore they share some ideas. However, the name of the many angels and "angelology" was something that was highly detailed in the Apocrypha and similar works and is a main feature in the NT. For sure the NT authors got these ideas from somewhere and it was not the OT.)
Revelation 8:3-4
- And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Tobit 12:12,15
So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I (the angel Raphael) who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.
(The idea that angels carried the prayers to God does not appear in the OT. Nothing even close. In the OT prayers are said to have risen up to God so that he can hear them.)
Matthew 16:18
- "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
Wisdom 16:13
- For you have power over life and death; you lead mortals down to the gates of Hades and back again.
(It should be mentioned that the Hebrew references to the gates of Sheol in Job 38:17 and Isaiah 38:10 is translated to "gates of Hades" in the Septuagint. The Hebrew OT nowhere uses the phrase "gates of Hades" because it's a Greek. Hades and Sheol were not the same thing.)
John 6:35-59
- Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
Sirach 24:21
Those who eat of me (wisdom) will hunger for more, and those who drink of me will thirst for more.
(This is not a quote but an intentional play on ideas. The only OT passage that comes close is Isaiah 55:1-3 and 49:10. It is possible that Jesus was referencing a common idea that coincidentally shows up in Sirach too.)
John 10:22
- At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter …. (festival not in OT)
1 Maccabees 4:59
- Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev.
(This festival does not appear in the OT at all. It is called Hanukkah today but it did not exist before the period of the Maccabees. The oldest known text documenting this feast is from the Apocrypha.)
Acts 1:7
He replied, "It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority.
1 Thessalonians 5:1
- Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you.
Wisdom 8:8
- she (wisdom) has foreknowledge of signs and wonders and of the outcome of seasons and times.
(There is little doubt that "times and seasons" is a generic phrase that shows up Daniel 2:21. Daniel was the only book of the OT to contain similar eschatology to that of the Apocrypha because they were written in a similar time period. In fact, the apocrypha contains additions to Daniel that are not in the Masoretic Text because the book was still being expanded during the Aramaic period of the post-exile. This accounts for the use of Aramaic in roughly half of Daniel. Moreover, the "times and seasons" of Daniel is referring to literal times and seasons in the calendar sense, whereas the other passages referenced are speaking metaphorically about prophetic happenings.)
Romans 9:21
- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use?
Wisdom 15:7
- A potter kneads the soft earthand laboriously molds each vessel for our service,fashioning out of the same clayboth the vessels that serve clean uses and those for contrary uses, making all alike;but which shall be the use of each of themthe worker in clay decides.
(There simply is not an OT counterpart for Romans 9:21. This is clearly a reference to Wisdom)
Ephesians 6:13-17
- Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Wisdom 5:17-20
- The Lord will take his zeal as his whole armor,and will arm all creation to repel his enemies;he will put on righteousness as a breastplate,and wear impartial justice as a helmet;he will take holiness as an invincible shield,and sharpen stern wrath for a sword,and creation will join with him to fight against his frenzied foes.
(While it would be a stretch to say Paul was quoting from Wisdom, there is little doubt that Paul is using a shared imagery that, in its combined format, only appears in the Apocrypha. As rightly pointed out in the comments, Isaiah does used some similar phrases, but only in Wisdom do we see the imagery of a completed set of armor and its elements.)
Hebrews 11:5
For it was attested before he was taken away that "he had pleased God."
Wisdom 4:10
- There were some who pleased God and were loved by him, and while living among sinners were taken up.
Sirach 44:16
- Enoch pleased the Lord and was taken up, an example of repentance to all generations.
(Enoch was an enormous figure to the messianic movement. The fact that he appears in the Apocrypha numerous times and the book in his name is quoted by James (the brother of Jesus) means that we have to account for his popularity in some way. His mention in the OT is so brief that one could hardly believe that Hebrew 11:5 is referencing any OT passage concerning Enoch. Furthermore, the Greek wording in all 3 passages is identical. The phrase "please the Lord" is never spoken about Enoch in the OT. Moreover, the author of Hebrews indicates that something was written and "attesting" to Enoch pleasing God. If not the OT what else could it be?)
Hebrews 11:35
- Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection.
2 Maccabees 7:13-14
- After he too had died, they maltreated and tortured the fourth in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "One cannot but choose to die at the hands of mortals and to cherish the hope God gives of being raised again by him. But for you there will be no resurrection to life!"
(The "Hall of Faith" discourse in Hebrews clearly references the martyrdom of the 7 brothers in 2 Maccabees. A full reading of chapter 7 in 1 Maccabees is recommended.)
Matthew 7:16,20
"you will know them by their fruits"
Sirach 27:6
- Its fruit discloses the cultivation of a tree.
(This is a glancing reference but nothing like it appears in the OT.)
https://dustoffthebible.com/Blog-archive/2019/09/17/does-the-new-testament-or-jesus-quote-from-the-apocryphal-books/
ETA: formatting and to add that there are MANY, MANY more examples if you go to the link above. Cheers.
Thaddeus73 said:1 and 2 Maccabees was part of the original canon of the bible infallibly declared by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD at the Council of Rome.. It was the reformers 1100+ years later who removed it to reinforce their doctrine...Quote:
Maccabees was added to reinforce Rome's error.
Again. Not tru as pointed out previously
Thank God for Agliving and the post-Luther Lutherans.
I truly appreciate your input and generally just sit back on such issues and like your posts.
I truly appreciate your input and generally just sit back on such issues and like your posts.
One school of thought which I studied in graduate school regarding Maccabees 1 & 2 (did you know there was a 3 &4?), regards the differences in thought between Pharisees and Sadducees. The Pharisees held onto to oral traditions much more so than the Sadducees. There was a known tension between the classes that extended for years. That tension included these texts.
I think the fate of these texts in both the Jewish and Christian worlds are intricately tied to each other.
Here's a short little read on that.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/omitting-the-maccabees/
I think the fate of these texts in both the Jewish and Christian worlds are intricately tied to each other.
Here's a short little read on that.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/omitting-the-maccabees/
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
Protestant to Catholic - Give me Scripture to back up your claims.
Catholic to Protestant - Here you go, 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15
Protestant to Catholic - That doesn't mean what it clearly says, so in my opinion, it doesn't count. I win...
Catholic to Protestant - Here you go, 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15
Protestant to Catholic - That doesn't mean what it clearly says, so in my opinion, it doesn't count. I win...
Huh? What do you think that passage means, and what do you think its relevance is to this discussion?Quote:
Catholic to Protestant - Here you go, 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15
Pope to Jesus - I'm blessing same sex unions and prayer to the deadThaddeus73 said:
Protestant to Catholic - Give me Scripture to back up your claims.
Catholic to Protestant - Here you go, 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15
Protestant to Catholic - That doesn't mean what it clearly says, so in my opinion, it doesn't count. I win...
Jesus to Pope - Depart from me, I never knew you
They believe it means whatever the holy see says it means and are not allowed to ask questions (mortal sin), now go and sin no more...Oh, and do go and do ("works") your seven sacraments.Jabin said:Huh? What do you think that passage means, and what do you think its relevance is to this discussion?Quote:
Catholic to Protestant - Here you go, 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15
We must do good works, the fruit of our faith - Colossians 1:10.
OTOH, the Jewish works OF THE LAW which Paul condemns, will do you no good anymore.....
OTOH, the Jewish works OF THE LAW which Paul condemns, will do you no good anymore.....
You're kidding, right? It couldn't be plainer...Quote:
Huh? What do you think that passage means, and what do you think its relevance is to this discussion?
1 Corinthians 3: 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Works are the "fruit" of one's faith and salvation...NOT a requirement for being saved..."lest one boasts".Thaddeus73 said:
We must do good works, the fruit of our faith - Colossians 1:10.
OTOH, the Jewish works OF THE LAW which Paul condemns, will do you no good anymore.....
So...how long did Jesus, Mary, Peter, Levi, etc., etc., etc. suffer in the FIRE? How long did the 'believing" thief on the cross suffer in the FIRE? Where does Jesus mention "purgatory" to His disciples...Mary...anyone??? What does "absent from the body, present with the Lord" mean...Jesus will be waiting for you there IN THE FIRE??? The idea is so ridiculous and again was ONLY intended to sell indulgences to pay for the holy see's new residence. Simply a Real Estate scam on the unsuspecting and it continues today. As I stated earlier...I've witnessed the scam performed by a priest...oops, Scam Artist.Thaddeus73 said:You're kidding, right? It couldn't be plainer...Quote:
Huh? What do you think that passage means, and what do you think its relevance is to this discussion?
1 Corinthians 3: 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Brother, my apologies if I have offended. We will have to agree to disagree and proceed down our own paths. I could address other topics, BUT won't. I will pray for you and hope you succeed in life and leisure. May God bless you and yours! Amen.
You couldn't be more wrong...Quote:
Works are the "fruit" of one's faith and salvation...NOT a requirement for being saved..."lest one boasts".
Matthew 25: The Judgment of the Nations
31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So, what fire will test our works, and what fire will we be saved by?Quote:
So...how long did Jesus, Mary, Peter, Levi, etc., etc., etc. suffer in the FIRE? How long did the 'believing" thief on the cross suffer in the FIRE? Where does Jesus mention "purgatory" to His disciples...Mary...anyone??? What does "absent from the body, present with the Lord" mean...Jesus will be waiting for you there IN THE FIRE??? The idea is so ridiculous and again was ONLY intended to sell indulgences to pay for the holy see's new residence. Simply a Real Estate scam on the unsuspecting and it continues today. As I stated earlier...I've witnessed the scam performed by a priest...oops, Scam Artist.
What do you think verses 13 and 14 mean? How are they different than verse 15?
The poet Dante Alighieri as in Dante's Inferno is the real basis for Purgatorio.
The papacy then monetized the concept with a way to buy your way out.
The question is do we pay for our sins or did Christ pay for sins.
If you answer both then you're stuck climbing Mount Purgatorio for who knows how long.
Any doctrine that requires poets, and the symbolic texts of salt and fire, or the strange book of Maccabees is difficult to defend.
You end up with extra biblical documents that are usually confusing and easily manipulated. The Mormons, Islam, Judaism all share this method with papal doctrines like Purgatorio.
The papacy then monetized the concept with a way to buy your way out.
The question is do we pay for our sins or did Christ pay for sins.
If you answer both then you're stuck climbing Mount Purgatorio for who knows how long.
Any doctrine that requires poets, and the symbolic texts of salt and fire, or the strange book of Maccabees is difficult to defend.
You end up with extra biblical documents that are usually confusing and easily manipulated. The Mormons, Islam, Judaism all share this method with papal doctrines like Purgatorio.
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Thaddeus73 said:You're kidding, right? It couldn't be plainer...Quote:
Huh? What do you think that passage means, and what do you think its relevance is to this discussion?
1 Corinthians 3: 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Lol...this is the worst kind of proof texting...
But lets play the game.
23 But he [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
It really couldn't be plainer that Peter is Satan right?
So Rome must follow Satan....
--------------
I'm of course kidding, but showing the ridiculousness of your effort.
I'll accept the hypothesis that Dante cemented the idea that Purgatory is an actual place such as Heaven and Hell rather than a transformative purification of the Elect. I'll also accept that the Church misused the teaching for monetary gain but have seen absolutely no solid historical foundation that the doctrines concerning Purgatory were constructed for such a purpose.
A very good but rather lengthy essay on Purgatory. IMO, it clears up any misconceptions about the teaching. It also gives a solid Biblical case beyond the often cited Deuterocanonical works.
Purgatory: Holy Fire
by Scott Hahn
The word "satan" means "adversary," so yes, at that time he was being adversarial.Quote:
It really couldn't be plainer that Peter is Satan right?
I think your rant meant "lucifer" instead of "satan."
Still, Jesus says that there is that prison we won't be released from until we have paid the last penny.
"Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." (Matthew 5: 25-26)
Which prison?
The metaphorical prison Jesus was using for his analogy?Quote:
Which prison?
Being so focused on "proving" the existence of Purgatory, you've missed Christ's entire point.
Well…none of us accept the pseudepigrapha.
I know of at least two places without researching it that the pseudepigrapha and its Gnosticism was rightfully anathema.
When St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1 writes, "Though I speak in tongues of men and of angels…"
The speaking in tongues of men and of angels is seen in the a pseudepigrapha work describing eloquent speech.
The vessels of wrath and the vessels of honor language St. Paul uses in Romans 9 is also from the pseudepigrapha.
Now for academic reasons, the apocrypha is helpful.
There is some wisdom in Enoch about not digging up roots and trying to utilize the spirit world through their use.
Enoch also is interesting for explaining how the ancient Jews viewed Genesis 6 and the flood.
Maccabees is helpful in understanding the Zionist zealots and how they would prefer an immediate physical kingdom to take place on earth before a Jesus who would set up his Kingdom not of this world in the world in Christianity in years to come. "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven."
For many Jews were persuaded by their leadership and voted for the Zionist Barabus over Jesus.
Maccabees is good for history. But its theological comments are none to be found in the rest of scripture and that is why it's of no use on Sunday mornings or in every day meditation.
Scripture interprets scripture.
Point being is that just because a New Testament writer quotes from the Apocrypha or alludes to a truth in it, does not make the entire work authoritative over the issues of the soul.
I know of at least two places without researching it that the pseudepigrapha and its Gnosticism was rightfully anathema.
When St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1 writes, "Though I speak in tongues of men and of angels…"
The speaking in tongues of men and of angels is seen in the a pseudepigrapha work describing eloquent speech.
The vessels of wrath and the vessels of honor language St. Paul uses in Romans 9 is also from the pseudepigrapha.
Now for academic reasons, the apocrypha is helpful.
There is some wisdom in Enoch about not digging up roots and trying to utilize the spirit world through their use.
Enoch also is interesting for explaining how the ancient Jews viewed Genesis 6 and the flood.
Maccabees is helpful in understanding the Zionist zealots and how they would prefer an immediate physical kingdom to take place on earth before a Jesus who would set up his Kingdom not of this world in the world in Christianity in years to come. "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven."
For many Jews were persuaded by their leadership and voted for the Zionist Barabus over Jesus.
Maccabees is good for history. But its theological comments are none to be found in the rest of scripture and that is why it's of no use on Sunday mornings or in every day meditation.
Scripture interprets scripture.
Point being is that just because a New Testament writer quotes from the Apocrypha or alludes to a truth in it, does not make the entire work authoritative over the issues of the soul.
Thaddeus73 said:
We must do good works, the fruit of our faith - Colossians 1:10.
OTOH, the Jewish works OF THE LAW which Paul condemns, will do you no good anymore.....
I agree. Sort of…
These works are the fruit of the Spirit in earlier written Galatians chapter 5. Same author of Colossians.
The fruit of our works are the fruit of the flesh, which are listed as examples given in Galatians 5 as well.
There are several traditions in Jewish culture regarding the state of those that have died. Kaddish for the state of the soul for instance.
Sometimes, it's good to lean as much on tradition as the written word, perhaps making up the entirety of God's Word.
Sometimes, it's good to lean as much on tradition as the written word, perhaps making up the entirety of God's Word.
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
Agreed. But some physical-Jews don't believe in the afterlife. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, but the Pharisees did, for example.
Some of them hold to a reincarnation, which is just the forming of a cast system here on earth in its logical conclusion.
Some of them hold to a reincarnation, which is just the forming of a cast system here on earth in its logical conclusion.
Right! And in similar fashion, some Christians believe xyz while others abc. The big question for me is what do I do with that information. How do I respond to these varying thoughts and traditions? Can we retain faith while in the liminal space, holding these two concepts in a dialectical tension? I think that's where the fun is.TheGreatEscape said:
Agreed. But some physical-Jews don't believe in the afterlife. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, but the Pharisees did, for example.
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
Here is an overview of what happened after the physical-Jewish council of Jamnia in 70AD and how it kind of contributed to the criteria for book acceptance into the cannon.
That's just my point, canon also can be considered another edifice within the city of tradition, creating differences (at the least) or fortified boundaries (at the worst).
Often, I think we are called to live between those differences, breaking barriers rather than building them. Again, that's where the fun is.
Often, I think we are called to live between those differences, breaking barriers rather than building them. Again, that's where the fun is.
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
I agree completely with that.
I believe everyone is objectively Christian if they hold to the 3 creeds of the church, for instance.
We Reformed do look into the Rabbinic tradition as well, for example, and Jewish historians. Many Christians utilize Josephus, for example.
I believe everyone is objectively Christian if they hold to the 3 creeds of the church, for instance.
We Reformed do look into the Rabbinic tradition as well, for example, and Jewish historians. Many Christians utilize Josephus, for example.
It's interesting to me that in this very thread, Protestants have on one hand told us they don't need or want anything quote "Jewish" in their Christianity. Then on the other hand we do want to rely on the Jews in 70 AD to support the Protestant canon.
The graphic you posted shows that the visible, Christian Churches that have existed and can be traced through history going back to the Apostles and Jesus Christ include the Deuterocanonical books (Orthodox & Catholics). Protestants who by definition came well over a thousand years later accept the Jewish canon and reject the Christian canon.
The graphic you posted shows that the visible, Christian Churches that have existed and can be traced through history going back to the Apostles and Jesus Christ include the Deuterocanonical books (Orthodox & Catholics). Protestants who by definition came well over a thousand years later accept the Jewish canon and reject the Christian canon.
Except that the Orthodox accept 3rd and 4th Maccabees and the Catholics do not agree in the Deuterocanonical books. Why is that?
The Orthodox accept the Letter of Jeremiah, but the Catholics do not. Why is that?
That is three books of disagreement between the Orthodox and Catholic cannon. Protestants were not the first to have disagreements on which books are to be published with authority for the brethren.
The Orthodox accept the Letter of Jeremiah, but the Catholics do not. Why is that?
That is three books of disagreement between the Orthodox and Catholic cannon. Protestants were not the first to have disagreements on which books are to be published with authority for the brethren.
There's an entire year of university studies that would probably answer that question efficiently.
But it again points out that tradition is as important as scripture, and further states that scripture might be more fully understood if considered a result of tradition.
But it again points out that tradition is as important as scripture, and further states that scripture might be more fully understood if considered a result of tradition.
It is difficult to write as if I was in your presence. However, it is a necessary skill. Communication should be full of smiles, respect, and a desire to relate. If you cannot relate to me, and I to you, there is little chance of us positively influencing each other.
Sure. As the late Reformed Anglican J.I. Packer pointed out, "Sola Scriptura never meant Nuda Scriptura."
In other words, scripture alone does not mean that church tradition is neglected in hermeneutics. We always default to Scripture through the harmony of Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology, and Dogmatic Theology.
For the Reformed, which I learned under Dr. Ferguson at Westminster seminary, Dogmatic Theology (dogma of the historic church/particularly the doctrine of God in the church fathers) makes up all of these ingredients for the Reformed Tradition.
However, the difference in being Reformed and Catholic or Orthodox is that church tradition authority is not equal to the authority of Scripture.
For the Catholics have changed since the church fathers with novelties. And the Orthodox claim that they haven't changed since the church fathers, which is attractive to we conservatives, but they have in fact the more you study Eastern Orthodoxy. Universalism is just one of the issues which many Orthodox have adopted, for example. This goes against a recognized church counsel. It may not be official church dogma. But they aren't really doing anything about it currently.
In other words, scripture alone does not mean that church tradition is neglected in hermeneutics. We always default to Scripture through the harmony of Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology, and Dogmatic Theology.
For the Reformed, which I learned under Dr. Ferguson at Westminster seminary, Dogmatic Theology (dogma of the historic church/particularly the doctrine of God in the church fathers) makes up all of these ingredients for the Reformed Tradition.
However, the difference in being Reformed and Catholic or Orthodox is that church tradition authority is not equal to the authority of Scripture.
For the Catholics have changed since the church fathers with novelties. And the Orthodox claim that they haven't changed since the church fathers, which is attractive to we conservatives, but they have in fact the more you study Eastern Orthodoxy. Universalism is just one of the issues which many Orthodox have adopted, for example. This goes against a recognized church counsel. It may not be official church dogma. But they aren't really doing anything about it currently.
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