In what ways is he a moderate? Does he believe in the sufficiency of Scripture? Does he believe in ecumenical counsels over papal authority? Does he want to get rid of novelties introduced since Vatican 1?

I'm grabbing you by your baptism. Not because of what Rome says it means. But because of what God says it means.

We saw the affect of secular liberalism invading the Roman Catholic Church in Vatican 1.

Will we eventually see Rome promoting our mother even higher and add her name into the Triune baptism?

Only the College of Cardinals can elect the Bishop of Rome, which is the chair of St. Peter, who most refer to as the Pope. HTH

Triune baptism? Is this another way of saying the Trinity? This doctrine is settled. Jesus settled it awhile back.

ETA: Cuba is not in South America!

I thought Jesus settled what marriage was as well.
And when you sleep with someone outside of marriage, then you are embracing within an adulterated version of marriage. This is why Christians called it common law marriage after three months.

To be clear, not all common law marriages are recognized by the RCC. It is a sacrament and not a legal procedure. I know this first hand.

We Confessionally Reformed do not recognize common law marriages as well.

Maybe one tactic to battle the blessings of same sex unions is to suggest that we not discriminate against blessing common law unions between heterosexual couples?

jrico2727 said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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We saw the affect of secular liberalism invading the Roman Catholic Church in Vatican 1.

Will we eventually see Rome promoting our mother even higher and add her name into the Triune baptism?

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Dude seriously? There is a a lot of ignorance and hate in a post like this. And on the Solemnity of Mary Mother of God too.

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Nah. I'm much closer to the Eastern Orthodox viewpoint. Not what happened after Vatican 1 and 2.

Ok. Why open up prayers to Mary before an homily, a sermon, or a YouTube discussion?

The Eastern Orthodox pray something that I would somewhat be closer towards at the end of such discussions.

Why is that?

The EOC opens up with a prayer to the Trinity.

Okay. Just a little odd. I haven't read any of the church father's opening prayers or recorded prayers doing this.

I would guess I cross myself 20-30 times a day

I have no problem with the first half of the prayer found in Luke.

Secondly, I cross myself sometimes. I put three fingers together and do it the Orthodox way. However, I generally cross to the West. But, I try to pray without ceasing and one form is to use the sign of the cross .

RAB91 said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

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Either they are so insular that they think that they can throw confusing guidance out there and that everyone will go along their merry way in "submission" to something that they interpret however they please, or they don't care if people confuse it. There's no way they don't realize that it is confusing, that was clearly the goal.

The current pope was the target of a very interesting project at Farsight:

Captain Pablo said:

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Spyder man get a new account?

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si

The project is very interesting..

RAB91 said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

---

Would be more accurate replace "confusion" with "division". One need only look at what progressives, Marxists, or whatever you want to call them have achieved in protestant denominations in the past decade or so. The top leadership is not confused. They are a growing cancer. Conservative Catholics should be very alarmed and concerned and need to get involved.

Lutheran ELCA -> ELCA and NALC
Episcopal TEC -> TEC and Anglican
Presbyterian PCUSA -> PCUSA and ECO
Methodist UMC -> UMC and GMC

Catholic Church -> ??

HumpitPuryear said:

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RAB91 said:

---

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

---

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

---

Would be more accurate replace "confusion" with "division". One need only look at what progressives, Marxists, or whatever you want to call them have achieved in protestant denominations in the past decade or so. The top leadership is not confused. They are a growing cancer. Conservative Catholics should be very alarmed and concerned and need to get involved.

Lutheran ELCA -> ELCA and NALC
Episcopal TEC -> TEC and Anglican
Presbyterian PCUSA -> PCUSA and ECO
Methodist UMC -> UMC and GMC

Catholic Church -> ??

---

Doesn't work that way in the Catholic Church, which is a good thing. The church has survived for 2000 years, through some really bad Popes.

What will happen, IMO, is the next Pope will course correct (hopefully)

If we get another Francis, people will just start leaving. See the mess that Germany has made. The result is 500,000 Germans left the church in 2022. 350,000 the year before

Some can be blamed on the sex abuse scandals, but not everything can be blamed on that, especially in 2022, when the exodus accelerated

Numbers aren't in for 2023 yet. Will be interesting to see

BTW, the German Bishops plan on doubling down on the German Synodal Way initiatives, and perhaps even going further, citing the need for "continuing cultural change"

They think that will stem the outgoing tide

We'll see how that goes I guess

AGC said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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HumpitPuryear said:

---

RAB91 said:

---

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

---

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

---

Would be more accurate replace "confusion" with "division". One need only look at what progressives, Marxists, or whatever you want to call them have achieved in protestant denominations in the past decade or so. The top leadership is not confused. They are a growing cancer. Conservative Catholics should be very alarmed and concerned and need to get involved.

Lutheran ELCA -> ELCA and NALC
Episcopal TEC -> TEC and Anglican
Presbyterian PCUSA -> PCUSA and ECO
Methodist UMC -> UMC and GMC

Catholic Church -> ??

---

Doesn't work that way in the Catholic Church, which is a good thing. The church has survived for 2000 years, through some really bad Popes.

What will happen, IMO, is the next Pope will course correct (hopefully)

If we get another Francis, people will just start leaving. See the mess that Germany has made. The result is 500,000 Germans left the church in 2022. 350,000 the year before

Some can be blamed on the sex abuse scandals, but not everything can be blamed on that, especially in 2022, when the exodus accelerated

Numbers aren't in for 2023 yet. Will be interesting to see

---

Not to be offensive, but it does just like everywhere else. East west split, Protestant split, the old Catholic Church after Vatican I, heck y'all declared primacy in the west in 416 without realizing there was a church in the English isles. It's kind of an RCC MO to make an arbitrary declaration and put everyone else outside the church, thus proving no split.

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No offense taken at all

From the Pillar link above-

"In this context, the Holy Father invites us to value the simple faith of the People of God who, even in the midst of their sins, emerge from their everyday lives and open their hearts to ask for God's help," it says.

Is the "sin" the couples being in an irregular situation?

Captain Pablo said:

---

HumpitPuryear said:

---

RAB91 said:

---

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

---

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

---

Would be more accurate replace "confusion" with "division". One need only look at what progressives, Marxists, or whatever you want to call them have achieved in protestant denominations in the past decade or so. The top leadership is not confused. They are a growing cancer. Conservative Catholics should be very alarmed and concerned and need to get involved.

Lutheran ELCA -> ELCA and NALC
Episcopal TEC -> TEC and Anglican
Presbyterian PCUSA -> PCUSA and ECO
Methodist UMC -> UMC and GMC

Catholic Church -> ??

---

Doesn't work that way in the Catholic Church, which is a good thing. The church has survived for 2000 years, through some really bad Popes.

What will happen, IMO, is the next Pope will course correct (hopefully)

If we get another Francis, people will just start leaving. See the mess that Germany has made. The result is 500,000 Germans left the church in 2022. 350,000 the year before

Some can be blamed on the sex abuse scandals, but not everything can be blamed on that, especially in 2022, when the exodus accelerated

Numbers aren't in for 2023 yet. Will be interesting to see

---

Thanks for pointing this out for some. As Christ stated, His Church will not fall. Sure we can have bad Popes, and difficult times, but the Church continues to endure. Although the latest snafu is seen by some as divisional, the absolute biggest issue is the confusion it sowed. The Church will never condone same sex marriage...ever. This doesn't mean you don't have a bishop or two going off the rails somewhere, but at that point they are not following the Church. People try to look at the bad people in the Church over 2000 years and say "aha, see it couldn't be Christs Church", but they don't also consider the multitudes of good people and good the Church has done in spreading the Gospel and keeping the Church moving forward despite those things. I imagine if you look at any denomination, you find road bumps in most of them in proportional amounts...what you don't see as much is the continuation of those churches and the same doctrines. The fact the Church has continued in spite of turmoil should be a testament to Christs Word.

Captain Pablo said:

---

HumpitPuryear said:

---

RAB91 said:

---

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

---

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/ddf-clarifies-fiducia-supplicans

I've read several write ups and the total clarification document several times now.

I think the clarification shows that the initial declaration was wrought with confusion and ripe for abuse by those with agendas to normalize and eventually sacramentalize irregular relationships.

I know of no one who is opposed to individuals receiving quick, spontaneous blessings when looking for the Lords help. I know no one thst is opposed to general blessings or impromptu blessings/"pastoral" blessings over their lives, no matter their situation or mortal state. What we have been worried about is certain ideological groups utilizing these blessings as a way to sow confusion amongst the flock.

Hopefully this puts an end to those abuses, and also allows those whom are concerned to be armed with stronger catechesis to continue to speak truth and love.

All in all… the biggest question still remains is why…. Why the need to stir the pot across all spectrums, and then constantly have to correct, clarify and in the end all are still confused.

---

I don't think that I'm a conspiracy nut in saying the 'why' was to do exactly what's in the thread title.... sow confusion.

---

Would be more accurate replace "confusion" with "division". One need only look at what progressives, Marxists, or whatever you want to call them have achieved in protestant denominations in the past decade or so. The top leadership is not confused. They are a growing cancer. Conservative Catholics should be very alarmed and concerned and need to get involved.

Lutheran ELCA -> ELCA and NALC
Episcopal TEC -> TEC and Anglican
Presbyterian PCUSA -> PCUSA and ECO
Methodist UMC -> UMC and GMC

Catholic Church -> ??

---

Doesn't work that way in the Catholic Church, which is a good thing. The church has survived for 2000 years, through some really bad Popes.

What will happen, IMO, is the next Pope will course correct (hopefully)

If we get another Francis, people will just start leaving. See the mess that Germany has made. The result is 500,000 Germans left the church in 2022. 350,000 the year before

Some can be blamed on the sex abuse scandals, but not everything can be blamed on that, especially in 2022, when the exodus accelerated

Numbers aren't in for 2023 yet. Will be interesting to see

---

There's a pattern to be taken seriously in what has happened in other denominations. As a former United Methodist I see parallels in what happened to UMC. Progressives will chip away for years even decades. Traditionalist will keep giving an inch and trying to hold the union together. UMC implemented "don't ask, don't tell" wrt LGBQ clergy - you could be clergy just don't be an open and active homosexual. It wasn't enough. Eventually the rules just went out the window when enough progressives ascended into leadership roles. Of course that didn't happen overnight. There was "confusing" messaging from UMC Bishops along the way.

Traditionalist had the votes to halt the progressive slide in doctrine but they soon found that the cancer had the upper hand and the patient was terminal. The progressive power structure simply ignored the doctrine. Progressives weren't pushed out, the traditionalists left, mostly empty handed. Same with PCUSA and the others. There are UMC churches across the country that are left with 1/3-1/2 of their former members. Many won't survive and with the UMC trust clause their properties will be taken from the congregation and sold. There will be former members that are churchless. This is what success looks like to a progressive.

I think you are making a mistake in assuming the next Pope will course correct. This Pope isn't saying and doing these things in a vacuum. The progressives are feeling bold. They are feeling bold because they have control. I think you are just as likely to get a Pope that is even more progressive than this one. And you don't want people leaving. Sure the church will survive. UMC, PCUSA ELCA, TEC have all survived, just with a fraction of their former members. Churches will close and assets will be sold off by the leadership to fund more progressive causes. It's part of the plan. Genius really - conquer the enemy and then sell off their assets to fund going after the next enemy. Progressives don't care if the church shrinks. Maybe the Pope really does think the church will reach more people if it becomes more progressive. He's a fool if he thinks that. Not a single one of the denominations above grew larger as a result of moving left. In fact they have continued to shrink. I don't think he's a fool. I think he's a true believer and that cancer needs to be removed or the Catholic Church will look nothing at all like it does now in 10 years.