PabloSerna said:

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I am lay person and even I KNOW that the blessing comes from God and not me. So I am doing nothing but the will of God.

It's amazing to me that Lucifer has sowed a seed in good people's heart that they think by doing the will of God, in this case a blessing for a virtuous life in the Church and all that implies- is instead a affirmation or worse their consent to vice.

ETA: This is way to welcome people to God and encourage them to walk in the life of the Church. Instead, many are taking this as a personal challenge. Exactly the trap set by Lucifer.

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The amount of self-righteousness in this comment is astounding. Unreal.

powerbelly said:

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PabloSerna said:

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I am lay person and even I KNOW that the blessing comes from God and not me. So I am doing nothing but the will of God.

It's amazing to me that Lucifer has sowed a seed in good people's heart that they think by doing the will of God, in this case a blessing for a virtuous life in the Church and all that implies- is instead a affirmation or worse their consent to vice.

ETA: This is way to welcome people to God and encourage them to walk in the life of the Church. Instead, many are taking this as a personal challenge. Exactly the trap set by Lucifer.

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The amount of self-righteousness in this comment is astounding. Unreal.

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Yes it is. Incredible, really

Read his next post

He asserts those who disagree with him are doing Lucifer's work

Quote:

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However, I see that you and others have taken a different approach, which I contend is aligned with what Lucifer would do-

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Dude has issues

PabloSerna said:

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I'm not as smart as you I am sure, but item #1 of the Declaration reads exactly,

1. The supplicating trust of the faithful People of God receives the gift of blessing that flows from the Heart of Christ through his Church. Pope Francis offers this timely reminder: "The great blessing of God is Jesus Christ. He is the great gift of God, his own Son. He is a blessing for all humanity, a blessing that has saved us all. He is the Eternal Word, with whom the Father blessed us 'while we were still sinners' (Rom. 5:8), as St. Paul says. He is the Word made flesh, offered for us on the cross."[1]

Then later in #20:

20. One who asks for a blessing show himself to be in need of God's saving presence in his life and one who asks for a blessing from the Church recognizes the latter as a sacrament of the salvation that God offers. To seek a blessing in the Church is to acknowledge that the life of the Church springs from the womb of God's mercy and helps us to move forward, to live better, and to respond to the Lord's will.

There is so much more. However, I see that you and others have taken a different approach, which I contend is aligned with what Lucifer would do- keep the Blessing of God in your pocket except for the worthy ones. How they got to that state is anyone's guess. Some will, some need this now.

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That is quite the accusation. Especially since you don't know anything about me accept what is posted here. I will accept God's judgement. I do not believe I am withholding anything from anyone, I try to hold myself to standard where I speak the truth regardless of convenience. If I were so callous I would gladly let you continue down the path of confusion and delusion without a word.

PabloSerna said:

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Or maybe you do.

ETA: I gonna tap out, if only because I don't want to take away from an important time in the Church. However, doing nothing is the definition of lukewarmness. And if you think my words sting, just read what Jesus has to say about doing nothing.

Merry Christmas y'all

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And there's that parting shot. Basically calling people he disagrees with partners with satan

So your choices are do nothing, or do something, but only if that something is what I agree with.

It's Pablo Serna's way or satan's way. As somebody alluded above, the self righteousness in these posts are astounding. Check yourself, man

aggietony2010 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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I cannot tell if that picture of what appears to be a priest is photo stock (i.e, a model most likely) - if only because he appears to be too young to be wearing a cross in front of his vestments like a Bishop. There are in fact, dress codes. Since you posted it, where did it come from?

There are some young priest that look powerful, Fr. Schmitz comes to mind, but he is 49.

ETA: Let's not devolve into memes if that is what it is. I expect that on F16. Here, we should rise above it.

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Devolve into memes? We're blessing sodomy and the Church is staring down the barrel of schism on a scale not seen in centuries and you're worried about memes?! Oh no, the horror!

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It's like when the titanic is sinking, the band is playing, and complaining that someone is out of tune.

PabloSerna said:

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I am lay person and even I KNOW that the blessing comes from God and not me. So I am doing nothing but the will of God.

It's amazing to me that Lucifer has sowed a seed in good people's heart that they think by doing the will of God, in this case a blessing for a virtuous life in the Church and all that implies- is instead a affirmation or worse their consent to vice.

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For a guy who claims to have read the whole document, you missed this part. Paragraphs 15-18 talk about the differences between ascending and descending blessings as well as blessings that extend. What you "KNOW" is incorrect according to FS.

The are absolutely affirming them in their sin by making this a public blessing. It is same sex attracted people who are the biggest victims because now prelates who have spiritual authority over them are confirming them in their sin. See any picture circulating over the last 24 hours of one of these blessings.

I have only made it to paragraph 30, which is horrendous. Paragraph 30 leaves the priest hanging out to dry. No guidance from his Bishop, or any ecclesial conference, etc. So priests, don't judge them when they come to you. Be spontaneous and give them a "pastoral" blessing. Don't ask any questions, just bless without question.

On a different note, the term "couples in irregular situations" is never defined. In this clown world it could mean anything.

I miss the days when the worst thing Cardinal Fernandez ever wrote was "Heal me with your mouth, the art of kissing."

aggietony2010 said:

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America magazine?! Yeah, no thanks.

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Speak of the devil...

The Jesuits put this paid adversing in The New York Times.

You know…the Jesuit Order to which Francis Bergoglio belongs:

“The Catholic Church is changing” pic.twitter.com/grqDVxYc3l

— Dr Taylor Marshall™️ (@TaylorRMarshall) December 22, 2023

I find it funny that America magazine appears to be citing America magazine writing about a document where the Francis papacy cites almost exclusively the Francis papacy to make its claims. "Great" minds think alike.

RAB91 said:

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Cardinal Müller writes that ‘Fiducia supplicans’, was a declaration that was “neither discussed nor approved by the General Assembly of Cardinals and Bishops of (the) Dicastery.”

I don’t recall during my lifetime any previous pope unilaterally imposing his will by completely… pic.twitter.com/3pxJi0yEtR

— Father V (@father_rmv) December 21, 2023

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But this has always been the challenge against the pope.

If the pope is the successor to Peter, vicar of Christ, how man impose "guardrails on legitimate papal authority?" If you hold to this, you should be happy with any ruling he gives because it is as if God Himself is speaking.

What this pope is doing is the very thing the Reformers have been warning against.

Interesting that a pope who has welcomed all sorts of enemies of the Church into the Vatican
who subtlety agrees with their doctrines
Places statues of Luther in the Vatican
Then behaves as their 500 year old caricature of the pope
All to push non-Catholic thought into the church
Is now the poster for we told you so by protestants and others who want to destroy the church

I am convinced now more than ever that the infiltration theory is completely false.

Anyone familiar with Catholic prophecy shouldn't be surprised by this, we have been repeatedly warned by heaven these days will come.

Keep the faith, persevere and receive your reward. Do not fall for the gaslighting and antics that are soon to come

jrico2727 said:

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Interesting that a pope who has welcomed all sorts of enemies of the Church into the Vatican
who subtlety agrees with their doctrines
Places statues of Luther in the Vatican
Then behaves as their 500 year old caricature of the pope
All to push non-Catholic thought into the church
Is now the poster for we told you so by protestants and others who want to destroy the church

I am convinced now more than ever that the infiltration theory is completely false.

Anyone familiar with Catholic prophecy shouldn't be surprised by this, we have been repeatedly warned by heaven these days will come.

Keep the faith, persevere and receive your reward. Do not fall for the gaslighting and antics that are soon to come

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Man...would you like some more straw with your post?

It is not protestants who are pointing out the issues, but "Father V" who is a Roman Catholic. So to correct your post, you need to say that it's roman catholics who believe this pope wants to destroy the church.

Protestants have the same argument with this pope and any pope.

747Ag said:

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andrago94 said:

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Some lines being drawn on this one. So far I have seen the following:

Against It:
Bishop Strickland
Cardinal Mueller
Malawi Episcopate
Nigeria Episcopate
Zambia Episcopate
Archbishop Vigano
Bishop Schneider and his Archdiocese
SSPX
British Confraternity of Catholic Clergy (500 priests)
Eastern Catholic Bishops of Ukraine

Not Against It:
Bishop Barron
James Martin, SJ
USCCB
Heads of Austrian and German Bishops Conferences
Archbishop Giraud of France
Cardinal Blase Cupich

Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it.

I think the only thing for sure right now is that confusion reigns on this issue in the church.

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Kenya as well. Also note that in the Archdiocese of Saint Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan, it's not just Bishop Schneider, but also Archbishop Tomash Peta.

And yes, I'm seeing a pattern here. Moreover, bishops CONFERENCES are opposing FS.

And Fr. Krupp summarizes the pastoral issue rather succinctly...

Exactly
The Holy Father and +Fernandez put priests in an impossible position.
I’ve talked to three or four clergy today who already were fielding calls from couples in irregular marriages and/or gay couples to set up their blessing.
So, we end up being called reactionary… https://t.co/T3o1eKvW77

— Fr. Joseph Krupp (@Joeinblack) December 20, 2023

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It's not just the "usual suspects" critiquing and resisting this new and novel approach to blessings. It's not just those "meanie, poopoo-headed" trads.

Long but worth the read essay from the Pillar.

Is the 'false narrative' narrative a false narrative?
by JD Flynn

747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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andrago94 said:

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Some lines being drawn on this one. So far I have seen the following:

Against It:
Bishop Strickland
Cardinal Mueller
Malawi Episcopate
Nigeria Episcopate
Zambia Episcopate
Archbishop Vigano
Bishop Schneider and his Archdiocese
SSPX
British Confraternity of Catholic Clergy (500 priests)
Eastern Catholic Bishops of Ukraine

Not Against It:
Bishop Barron
James Martin, SJ
USCCB
Heads of Austrian and German Bishops Conferences
Archbishop Giraud of France
Cardinal Blase Cupich

Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it.

I think the only thing for sure right now is that confusion reigns on this issue in the church.

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Kenya as well. Also note that in the Archdiocese of Saint Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan, it's not just Bishop Schneider, but also Archbishop Tomash Peta.

And yes, I'm seeing a pattern here. Moreover, bishops CONFERENCES are opposing FS.

And Fr. Krupp summarizes the pastoral issue rather succinctly...

Exactly
The Holy Father and +Fernandez put priests in an impossible position.
I’ve talked to three or four clergy today who already were fielding calls from couples in irregular marriages and/or gay couples to set up their blessing.
So, we end up being called reactionary… https://t.co/T3o1eKvW77

— Fr. Joseph Krupp (@Joeinblack) December 20, 2023

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It's not just the "usual suspects" critiquing and resisting this new and novel approach to blessings. It's not just those "meanie, poopoo-headed" trads.

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That explanation is about as good as it gets

And it illustrates what I was trying to say earlier in this thread, no matter how adamantly it is denied, what is contemplated is a blessing of the relationship. At least an endorsement. Period

Otherwise, the Pope would not have use the word "couple"

Such a good video. Thank you for sharing.

jkag89 said:

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Long but worth the read essay from the Pillar.

Is the 'false narrative' narrative a false narrative?
by JD Flynn

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Was just about to post this one as well. It is a good even handed walkthrough of the situation.

Quote:

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Some put it this way: How could the Apostolic See have failed to appreciate the gravity of its announcement? Or did Vatican officials understand what would happen, and proceed anyway?

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One Pillar commenter hit on something that is in the back of my head too...

Quote:

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The thing that has been most disorienting to meso far, because I have no right to expect smooth sailing in any area of life including and especially the always messy business of God's churchis that the document seems to undermine the entire concept of development of doctrine and therefore the entire claim to legitimacy of the church as *The Church* and not just some pretty good option among a lot of options. It has felt like everything I thought I knew has been turned on its head.

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Another good one from Phil Lawler:

Quote:

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Yet the DDF knows exactly how far to push its argument. By repeatedly saying that it does not intend a change in Church doctrine or discipline, the document ensures that many loyal Catholics will take that claim at face value, and even lash out at critics of Fiducia Supplicans. Never mind that informed people see it as ground-breaking. Never mind that critics of Catholic teaching are rejoicing. They are all wrong, according to the defenders of the Vatican statement. There is nothing in the document that directly contradicts the teachings of the Church.

And that is precisely the point. There is no direct contradiction of Church doctrine, no revolutionary change in Church discipline. Yet the unmistakable thrust of the document is to encourage greater acceptance of homosexual behavior, to discourage the admonition of sinners. The DDF has emboldened those Catholics who are working for a change in Church teaching, while including just enough restatements of orthodox teaching to placate more conservative Catholics, giving them a way to maintain their own ritual purity("Nothing has changed!")even as the ground shifts under their feet.

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Metropolitan Sviatoslav Shevchuk of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church says it does not apply to the Eastern Catholic Churches where a "blessing" is inseparable from the liturgical life of the Church.

What a cluster, and incredible unforced error by the dicastery. I always reflect back on the irony that Pope Francis cited disunity as the reason for placing restrictions on the availability to Catholics of the TLM.

If this is the issue that gets orthodox Catholicism to say "enough is enough" it will be one of the best things to happen to the Church in 10 years. We've heard grumbles in the past from Bishop Strickland, Bishop Schneider, Cdl Mueller, but we haven't seen this tidal wave of dissent from multiple corners any time I can remember.

Catholic bishops in Poland have ruled out the possibility of blessing “same-sex unions,” but remain open to blessing individuals with homosexual tendencies, only if they are “living in complete abstinence” of sexual activities. https://t.co/36YXGcMGM8

— Catholic News Agency (@cnalive) December 22, 2023

Terminus Est said:

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If this is the issue that gets orthodox Catholicism to say "enough is enough" it will be one of the best things to happen to the Church in 10 years. We've heard grumbles in the past from Bishop Strickland, Bishop Schneider, Cdl Mueller, but we haven't seen this tidal wave of dissent from multiple corners any time I can remember.

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I am encouraged by the reaction.

whatthehey78 said:

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Unless one is "caught up" in the particular activity, I cannot fathom how anyone can rationally believe the pope's declaration is "Christian". I do not envision Jesus, or EVEN Mary approving this action.

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Which is why the distinction between a liturgical blessing and a pastoral blessing is nonsensical. The document says that there's still a descending value. And we know that God cannot bless sin. Which means that God cannot bless same sex couples AS SUCH. So we're back to blessing repentant individuals. But the document talks about the possibility of blessing couples of the same sex. It is self defeating, and the sloppiest document I've ever seen come out of the Vatican. Makes zero sense.