747Ag said:

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andrago94 said:

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Some lines being drawn on this one. So far I have seen the following:

Against It:
Bishop Strickland
Cardinal Mueller
Malawi Episcopate
Nigeria Episcopate
Zambia Episcopate
Archbishop Vigano
Bishop Schneider and his Archdiocese
SSPX
British Confraternity of Catholic Clergy (500 priests)
Eastern Catholic Bishops of Ukraine

Not Against It:
Bishop Barron
James Martin, SJ
USCCB
Heads of Austrian and German Bishops Conferences
Archbishop Giraud of France
Cardinal Blase Cupich

Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it.

I think the only thing for sure right now is that confusion reigns on this issue in the church.

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Kenya as well. Also note that in the Archdiocese of Saint Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan, it's not just Bishop Schneider, but also Archbishop Tomash Peta.

And yes, I'm seeing a pattern here. Moreover, bishops CONFERENCES are opposing FS.

And Fr. Krupp summarizes the pastoral issue rather succinctly...

Exactly
The Holy Father and +Fernandez put priests in an impossible position.
I’ve talked to three or four clergy today who already were fielding calls from couples in irregular marriages and/or gay couples to set up their blessing.
So, we end up being called reactionary… https://t.co/T3o1eKvW77

— Fr. Joseph Krupp (@Joeinblack) December 20, 2023

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It is impossible to not see someone basically go to FSSP or other traditional orders or priests and basically have their "bake my cake moment."

jrico2727 said:

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747Ag said:

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andrago94 said:

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Some lines being drawn on this one. So far I have seen the following:

Against It:
Bishop Strickland
Cardinal Mueller
Malawi Episcopate
Nigeria Episcopate
Zambia Episcopate
Archbishop Vigano
Bishop Schneider and his Archdiocese
SSPX
British Confraternity of Catholic Clergy (500 priests)
Eastern Catholic Bishops of Ukraine

Not Against It:
Bishop Barron
James Martin, SJ
USCCB
Heads of Austrian and German Bishops Conferences
Archbishop Giraud of France
Cardinal Blase Cupich

Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it.

I think the only thing for sure right now is that confusion reigns on this issue in the church.

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Kenya as well. Also note that in the Archdiocese of Saint Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan, it's not just Bishop Schneider, but also Archbishop Tomash Peta.

And yes, I'm seeing a pattern here. Moreover, bishops CONFERENCES are opposing FS.

And Fr. Krupp summarizes the pastoral issue rather succinctly...

Exactly
The Holy Father and +Fernandez put priests in an impossible position.
I’ve talked to three or four clergy today who already were fielding calls from couples in irregular marriages and/or gay couples to set up their blessing.
So, we end up being called reactionary… https://t.co/T3o1eKvW77

— Fr. Joseph Krupp (@Joeinblack) December 20, 2023

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It is impossible to not see someone basically go to FSSP or other traditional orders or priests and basically have their "bake my cake moment."

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Yeah

According to Pablo Serna, priests who deny these blessings are doing Satan's work

You better believe there will be consequences from this Pope if priests don't get in line

"Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it."

And that's a lie

As Ed Feser has been pointing out, a distinction between a "couple" and a "union" seems to have surfaced in the last 72 hours to justify why this new pronouncement on the most controversial topic in current practical pastoral application says exactly the same thing that the 2021 pronouncement said despite people like Fr. Martin already using it to justify doing something they claimed that they couldn't do 96 hours ago.

Edward Feser (@FeserEdward) / X (twitter.com)

Whatever semantic gymnastics one wants to play, priests are now posting photos of themselves conferring blessings on two men lovingly holding hands. Totally fine, I guess.

PabloSerna said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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"Also, lots of commentators especially in America saying that the document didn't change anything, people are just mis-interpreting it."

And that's a lie

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It didn't change the sacrament of marriage and that is the truth.

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I didn't say it did

But it did add a new blessing situation

To say otherwise is a lie

Why don't you quit playing games and shoot straight for once in your life. Are you capable?

PabloSerna said:

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"Non serviam"

That has been said before.


ETA: What a opportunity to welcome more people to the table of the Lord. But no, not for some who, like the Prodigal son's brother, seethed at the love and mercy being shown by the Father. Same song, different tune - IMO.

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See, the difference in this scenario, is that the prodigal son is not coming to the father acknowledging his sin begging for mercy. It's more like he brought a couple of the *****s he wasted his father's inheritance on and is asking if there are any spare bedrooms

PabloSerna said:

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"Non serviam"

That has been said before.


ETA: What a opportunity to welcome more people to the table of the Lord. But no, not for some who, like the Prodigal son's brother, seethed at the love and mercy being shown by the Father. Same song, different tune - IMO.

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What table are they joining? The kids table? The adult one requires you to repent…

PabloSerna said:

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"Non serviam"

That has been said before.


ETA: What a opportunity to welcome more people to the table of the Lord. But no, not for some who, like the Prodigal son's brother, seethed at the love and mercy being shown by the Father. Same song, different tune - IMO.

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The prodigal son came back to the father contrite and changed. The father didn't go into town, put the ring on his finger and hand him a plate of fatted calf while he was at the brothel.

The Church did not need to publish an incredibly nuanced declaration in order to maintain the status quo of blessing those seeking to overcome their sins. Your average Catholic will not read this document nor will most grasp the nuance. FS will be grievously abused because it won't be interpreted in its best light further leading souls to perdition.

But I doubt the nuanced hypotheticals are all that common. FS fails in reaching us in our common parlance. It fails to grasp the plainness of human behavior. Cardinal Mueller hits the nail on the head.

Lastly, be careful about who you attribute Non Servium to... Do those who oppose this document do so because it's from Francis, or are they motivated by the salvation of souls? I posit it's the latter.

Honestly Francis has been a blessing to the Church.

We are all frustrated by the completed lunacy that exudes from him and the current curia. What we are watching is a the last tantrum of a dying rebellious generation. They have done much damage but the lines are clear now.

Since Francis traditional parishes are booming. Even after TC. The TLM is stronger now at any point since VII. Catholics are using the resources available to them and learning the faith and growing stronger. I have yet to meet a young priest that isn't orthodox and conservative, regardless of what order the belong or what mass they say. No one knows this better than they do. That is why they are doing everything they can to sneak changes into practice. Not dogma, not any ex cathedra statement. Which means none of this is infallible no matter the Vatican I blaming that is going on now. He will not challenge the Holy Ghost and take these actual official steps.

What they are seeking is compliance and for people to give up. If we practice their folly we will soon enough accept it as our own practice. All we have to do is resist and wait. Live the faith and God will take care of the rest.

From Cardinal Gerhard Muller:

Quote:

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The teaching of FS is therefore self-contradictory and thus requires further clarification. The Church cannot celebrate one thing and teach another because, as St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote, Christ was the Teacher "who spoke and it was done" (Ephesians 15:1), and one cannot separate his flesh from his word.

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AggieRain said:

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I get that the document didn't foundationally change much, but the optics of this are going to have significant ramifications. Conflict will occur when some priests dispense blessings that can easily be misconstrued as an acceptance of homosexual lifestyles or even as a blessing of unions. Juxtaposed against conservative priests preaching the opposite, and you have a perfect storm for crisis. It seems to me the Pope created a conflict here that doesn't serve the interests of anybody...

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This Priest echoes your sentiments here, pray for him

PabloSerna said:

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jrico2727- you're smart, what about this statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) do you have a problem with:

"The Declaration issued today by the Vatican's Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) articulated a distinction between liturgical (sacramental) blessings, and pastoral blessings, which may be given to persons who desire God's loving grace in their lives. The Church's teaching on marriage has not changed, and this declaration affirms that, while also making an effort to accompany people through the imparting of pastoral blessings because each of us needs God's healing love and mercy in our lives."

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Actions speak louder. Bless me father for I have sinned, is how we start our confessions in reconciliation. Yes I a sinner ask for blessings and I don't begrudge another sinner seeking the same. What we are seeing is not a call to repentance, or any instruction for virtuous life. We see false charity. Repent for the kingdom is at hand is how the Gospel was spread. Not come on in and hopefully some grace by osmosis will occur.

Pablo you are smart as well, why do labor so hard to see what isn't there, when the truth is so much simpler?