Modern science cannot explain many aspects of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

The image shows no sign of deterioration after 500 years. The tilma or cloak of Juan Diego on which the image of Our Lady has been imprinted, is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey… pic.twitter.com/9sn0DvPoYk

— Father V (@father_rmv) December 12, 2023

One of the most amazing things about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is the eyes.  Using digital technology, the images in the eyes of Our Lady were enlarged many times, revealing that each eye reflected the figure of the Indian Juan Diego opening his tilma in front of Bishop… pic.twitter.com/pugA86CLUx

— Father V (@father_rmv) December 12, 2023

pic.twitter.com/D6CCmtOXvh

— Sr. Mary Joseph Calore, SSCJ (@sscjusa) December 12, 2023

Agliving, many dont realize that both Luther and Calvin were students of the church fathers. They quoted from them and interacted with the writings of the church fathers.

And just like the model of the church fathers, both Luther and Calvin went ad hoc to the scriptures for the supreme authority.

Thaddeus73 said:

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No you cannot, because "all" in the bible does not mean all, but most.

2 Corinthians 5:14-20
New International Version
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Both Enoch and Elijah never died...

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The KJV says "all were dead" - which makes more sense in context - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all were dead (were dead spiritually but because of Christ death are now alive spiritually in Christ if they so choose) Said another way, One died for all and therefore all needed saving.....
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Versus - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died (physically). This statement doesn't make sense, Christ died for all therefore everyone has died/will die a physical death - not a logical cause and effect in my eyes.

But even if this verse was talking about physical death, it still wouldn't be any cause to believe in the sinlessness of Mary because the Bible clearly and explicitly identifies Enoch and Elijah as exceptions to physical death, something it does not do with Mary and sin. Additionally, many people believe Enoch and Elijah are the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11, in which case they would suffer a physical death during their second stint on Earth.

TXaggiesTX said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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No you cannot, because "all" in the bible does not mean all, but most.

2 Corinthians 5:14-20
New International Version
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Both Enoch and Elijah never died...

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The KJV says "all were dead" - which makes more sense in context - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all were dead (were dead spiritually but because of Christ death are now alive spiritually in Christ if they so choose) Said another way, One died for all and therefore all needed saving.....
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Versus - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died (physically). This statement doesn't make sense, Christ died for all therefore everyone has died/will die a physical death - not a logical cause and effect in my eyes.

But even if this verse was talking about physical death, it still wouldn't be any cause to believe in the sinlessness of Mary because the Bible clearly and explicitly identifies Enoch and Elijah as exceptions to physical death, something it does not do with Mary and sin. Additionally, many people believe Enoch and Elijah are the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11, in which case they would suffer a physical death during their second stint on Earth.

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Well, if you only use the 'explicitly stated' as the benchmark then quite a few of Christian beliefs wouldn't be in there.
Plus you're conflating Mary's death and her sinlessness. The RCC teaches Mary did die a physical death but was assumed.

TXaggiesTX said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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No you cannot, because "all" in the bible does not mean all, but most.

2 Corinthians 5:14-20
New International Version
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Both Enoch and Elijah never died...

---

The KJV says "all were dead" - which makes more sense in context - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all were dead (were dead spiritually but because of Christ death are now alive spiritually in Christ if they so choose) Said another way, One died for all and therefore all needed saving.....
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Versus - For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died (physically). This statement doesn't make sense, Christ died for all therefore everyone has died/will die a physical death - not a logical cause and effect in my eyes.

But even if this verse was talking about physical death, it still wouldn't be any cause to believe in the sinlessness of Mary because the Bible clearly and explicitly identifies Enoch and Elijah as exceptions to physical death, something it does not do with Mary and sin. Additionally, many people believe Enoch and Elijah are the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11, in which case they would suffer a physical death during their second stint on Earth.

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Yes. And to whom was the original audience that Saint Paul was writing? Christians, no?

And it was a saying among the household of God, no?

😇 pic.twitter.com/Y1aE37pYdI

— Father V (@father_rmv) December 13, 2023

Yeah…we probably need to stop saying that Roman Catholics worship Mary. But it does appear to me to shift focus from the holy Trinity and cause an unnecessary distraction that appears to be idolatrous.

With that stated: When Mary is honored properly in her unique role, then you are good to go (I submit).

Here is historic music that reflects that by Liturgical Folk and Ryan Flanigan.

Please give it a listen for it is beautiful.

jkag89 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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I have to admit. That's an amazing picture. Us Protestants are lacking in anime.

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While us Catholics have been known to produce great works of art, what we really excel at is producing lots and lots of kitsch.

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Why in the world did they give Satan an 'eight-pack'?

TXaggiesTX said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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No..It means that Jesus got his sinless flesh and blood from Mary, also sinless.

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Where did Mary get her sinless flesh and blood? Where did that person get theirs? And that person…and so on? All the sudden there are lots of people who led sinless lives.

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Mary was sinless because of Gods grace. She was saved because God preserved her from sin. Jesus defeated sin of his own doing through faith. God could have had Jesus born of a woman who had the stain of original sin...He can do anything he wants. However, it is fitting that Jesus was born of a sinless woman.

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Not sure I agree with the concept of original sin, not in the Bible and one of the most complex topics in theology, but that is beside the point.
You state that God could have used a sinful person to be the mother of his Son just as he used many other sinful people for his glory throughout the Bible - I agree with you. Therefore, since the Bible does not explicitly mention whether Mary was sinless or not but it does say "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" we can reasonably infer that Mary sinned during her life and has the same salvation through Jesus that you and I have.

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You could infer that, but there are other places that imply otherwise. Plus, even though God could do that, it is fitting that she was sinless. She still had salvation through Christ. Did Jesus not existed prior to his birth? She still needed salvation just like anyone else because she was human and thus fell short. It doesn't follow that she had to sin at some point during her life.
The bible never explicitly tells us whether baptism MUST be by immersion, sprinkling, etc. We infer our interpretations from it based on other things within scripture and for some through what the Church fathers taught.

Moreover, you don't read Augustine praying this way.

He doesn't open with prayer for Mary's guidance.
I've read nothing of that sort from one of the two doctors of the Church.

Jesus got his sinless flesh and sacred blood from Mary....So....

I'm in the trenches fighting for Roman Catholics and encouraging them to get involved in the fight against the principalities and powers of darkness. I'm trying to lead them back to the Roman Catholic Church because that's just the way things are for them. I try to see people at where they are at..

Quote:

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Or Jesus got his sinless flesh by not being the seed of the man Adam, but from the power of the Godhead alone…

I think it's a point development to establish that Christ was the Messiah and fully God and fully man.

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By denying the role of the mother in Jesus' humanity, you make no sense whatsoever. He was fully man, not just fully God, as you say...

TXaggiesTX said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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No..It means that Jesus got his sinless flesh and blood from Mary, also sinless.

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Where did Mary get her sinless flesh and blood? Where did that person get theirs? And that person…and so on? All the sudden there are lots of people who led sinless lives.

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Mary was sinless because of Gods grace. She was saved because God preserved her from sin. Jesus defeated sin of his own doing through faith. God could have had Jesus born of a woman who had the stain of original sin...He can do anything he wants. However, it is fitting that Jesus was born of a sinless woman.

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Not sure I agree with the concept of original sin, not in the Bible and one of the most complex topics in theology, but that is beside the point.
You state that God could have used a sinful person to be the mother of his Son just as he used many other sinful people for his glory throughout the Bible - I agree with you. Therefore, since the Bible does not explicitly mention whether Mary was sinless or not but it does say "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" we can reasonably infer that Mary sinned during her life and has the same salvation through Jesus that you and I have.

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Original Sin is Scriptural and in the Bible.

I'll use the Augsburg Confession as a definition. For the most part, Rome agreed with it during the Reformation:

Quote:

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[1] Furthermore, it is taught among us that since the fall of Adam, all human beings who are born in the natural way are conceived and born in sin. This means that from birth they are full of evil lust and inclination and cannot by nature possess true fear of God and true faith in God. [2] Moreover, this same innate disease and original sin is truly sin and condemns to God's eternal wrath all who are not in turn born anew through baptism and the Holy Spirit.
[3] Rejected, then, are the Pelagians and others who do not regard original sin as sin in order to make human nature righteous through natural powers, thus insulting the suffering and merit of Christ.

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The Scriptural support is significant for it.

Psalm 51: 5: 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 90:8: 8 You have set our iniquities before you,
our secret sins in the light of your presence.

Jeremiah 17:9:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

Romans 3:22-23: 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Romans 7:15-20: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Galatians 5:17-21: 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

and so forth.

The Scriptures are clear, in both the OT and NT that there are desires within us that draw us, against our will, towards sinful behavior. Rome and Lutherans may disagree on whether it is truly sin after baptism, but there's agreement that we can't deny these desires exist.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Quote:

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Or Jesus got his sinless flesh by not being the seed of the man Adam, but from the power of the Godhead alone…

I think it's a point development to establish that Christ was the Messiah and fully God and fully man.

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By denying the role of the mother in Jesus' humanity, you make no sense whatsoever. He was fully man, not just fully God, as you say...

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Yea, Mary imputed the humanity of Christ, not the sinlessness of God. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since there is no Biblical reference to such a claim that Mary's sinless flesh was transferred to Christ.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/if-jesus-was-born-of-the-substance-of-the-virgin-mary-how-was-he-without-original-sin

Quote:

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since there is no Biblical reference to such a claim that Mary's sinless flesh was transferred to Christ.

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If she is full of grace (the life of God), and she is, then that means no sin....otherwise she wouldn't be full...

TheGreatEscape said:

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https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/if-jesus-was-born-of-the-substance-of-the-virgin-mary-how-was-he-without-original-sin

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Please read this about the two views of how we humans receive souls. It goes into the church history of it.

Both the KJV and the NKJV use the textus receptus.
That text was devopled by Erasmus a Roman Catholic.

There are better manuscripts available now. Try the ESV or the NASB.

Are the items about the cloak and image that Ferg posted true?

TAM85 said:

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Are the items about the cloak and image that Ferg posted true?

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Here is some more about Our Lady of Guadalupe.

In December Don Diego was told by our Lady to go to the top of a hill to pick some roses to give to the Bishop who was from Spain.

He brought the Roses, which were in fact a type of rose that grows in his home town in Spain not Mexico.

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/the-miraculous-roses-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe

Our Lady also appeared in Fatima Portugal. I'm sure you've heard about the 3 secrets of Fatima.

There was also the Miracle of the Sun that occurred there.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/36019/miracle-of-the-sun-broke-darkness-of-portugals-atheist-regimes

"I am the Immaculate Conception."
~Our Lady of Lourdes - March 25, 1858 pic.twitter.com/0mjZNHOkup

— Tammy Marie (@O_Maria_Hilf) December 8, 2023

There is a great movie about our Lady of Lourdes(France) called Song of Bernadette.

Vincent Price has a small role in it. Jennifer Jones stars as Saint Bernadette

And how do other Roman Catholic theologians around the world feel about your beliefs in
Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Have there ever been questions raised as to placing her in the proper role or something?

I don't know. Just asking.

And while you are at answering those questions for me…

Is there a record of all these converts hearing the law of God preached so that the good news of the Gospel can pierce in between soul and spirit for the forgiveness of sins?

Or were they coming to repent before a pagan sage?

And when had the Roman Catholic Church ever sainted a pagan before or even ever since Mrs. Guadalupe?

And please name one church father who would support this?

TheGreatEscape said:

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And how do other Roman Catholic theologians around the world feel about your beliefs in
Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Have there ever been questions raised as to placing her in the proper role or something?

I don't know. Just asking.

And while you are at answering those questions for me…

Is there a record of all these converts hearing the law of God preached so that the good news of the Gospel can pierce in between soul and spirit for the forgiveness of sins?

Or were they coming to repent before a pagan sage?

And when had the Roman Catholic Church ever sainted a pagan before or even ever since Mrs. Guadalupe?

And please name one church father who would support this?

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Whoa Nelly, Pagan Mrs Guadalupe?

Our Lady of Guadalupe is an appearance by the Virgin Mary.

In 1945 the Pope named her Empress of the Americas. She is also the patroness of Mexico.

Also Juan Diego who she appeared to was elevated to Sainthood which is only done by the Pope after a vigorous investigation by the Church.

Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes are other appearances by Mary.

TheGreatEscape said:

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And how do other Roman Catholic theologians around the world feel about your beliefs in
Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Have there ever been questions raised as to placing her in the proper role or something?

I don't know. Just asking.

And while you are at answering those questions for me…

Is there a record of all these converts hearing the law of God preached so that the good news of the Gospel can pierce in between soul and spirit for the forgiveness of sins?

Or were they coming to repent before a pagan sage?

And when had the Roman Catholic Church ever sainted a pagan before or even ever since Mrs. Guadalupe?

And please name one church father who would support this?

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First of all Our Lady of Guadalupe is Mary mother of Jesus

The Church fathers would have seen her as the Theotokos, and they would have supported, her Marian apparitions have been part of the Church since St. James was evangelizing Iberian peninsula, early Spain - See our Lady of Pilar

Rev 12:1
* A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Yes there is record of them hearing the Gospel- It is called every single Mass and every missionary that came such as St. Junipero Sero

What pagan are you claiming was sainted? St. Juan Diego was baptized at the time of the apparition

Well…I definitely concede my point. Thank you for the education.