Pray

A good Orthodox source for what you're talking about and the subject of this tread.

https://deathtotheworld.com/podcast/

Look for the episodes titled Orthodox Survival Giude. I believe it's a 10-lecture series.

TheGreatEscape said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Per RCC... what needs to be factored in - is that not all women have a vocation to the married life. Some to the religious, some to the single life, and many to the married life.

It would seem that many think all women want to be married. Just not the case.

ETA: Same goes for men.

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Agreed. There's a balance there somewhere.
Most of the OT Prophets and many of the Apostles appeared to have been single.

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The fall of monastic life, of which in America there has never been much to begin with. The west's falling away from the spiritual side of Christianity started our society's decent into upside-down world.

AnonymousDude said:

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A good Orthodox source for what you're talking about and the subject of this tread.

https://deathtotheworld.com/podcast/

Look for the episodes titled Orthodox Survival Giude. I believe it's a 10-lecture series.

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I'm tired. Just got home from work and clicked on the link and listened to the Genesis 1 lesson. I forgot to search for Orthodox Survival Guide.

Thanks for sharing your tradition with us. I always enjoy learning about what the Patristics thought about various subjects. I also enjoyed the insight to how the Patristics guarded the church from gnostic heresies.

Thank you for sharing. I'm off tomorrow and plan to listen to one or two on the survival guide.

Peace be with you,

Joshua

Not Orthodox (big O), but gaining a wealth of meaning and understanding from Orthodox teachings, especially regarding the spiritual life.

Trying to be more orthodox (little o) in my walk w/ Christ.

Blessings.

AnonymousDude said:

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Not Orthodox (big O), but gaining a wealth of meaning and understanding from Orthodox teachings, especially regarding the spiritual life.

Trying to be more orthodox (little o) in my walk w/ Christ.

Blessings.

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We are on the same page.

omnis veritas est veritas dei

We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

If you stand against the sexual revolution, then they call you a Christian nationalist which is the secularists' way of putting the Star of David upon Christians.

And the secularists holy sacrament of blood in which they partake is murderous abortion.

AnonymousDude said:

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Not Orthodox (big O), but gaining a wealth of meaning and understanding from Orthodox teachings, especially regarding the spiritual life.

Trying to be more orthodox (little o) in my walk w/ Christ.

Blessings.

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I really enjoy Orthodox teachings also. I often search the Orthodox view on different theological questions as I find it to be very solid.

Quote:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

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Or you could just be a Christian that lives "in the world" but is not "of the world". No one is forcing such an all encompassing level of political engagement

True… but the text doesn't say that we don't live in the world.
And as free citizens, we express our worldview by preaching the Gospel, voting, and holding public office.

Psalm 33:12 ESV

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!"

Ultimately the Kingdom of Christ is higher than this world order. In that sense, Jesus' Kingdom is both now and not of this world.

For we are taught to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is (already) in heaven.
Or why pray it?

And the Law is apart of the Gospel in the New Testament as well. All of Christ in all of life.

Check out the great commission for a small point for consideration.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All AUTHORITY in heaven and on EARTH has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all NATIONS , baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

So, part of our witness to other nations is producing a healthier legal system that promotes the general equity of God's case law system in the Torah.

And as a great outpouring will occur as a result of the prophecy in Romans 11, Christ will soon appear in the New Heavens and New Earth. We are to emulate that in all spheres of sovereignty. For not one inch of the world does Christ not shout, "Mine!" Received that from Abraham Kuyper but you can find that in Colossians 1 and 2. Christ holds all things together whether on physical earth or in the spiritual realm.


1 Corinthians 10:31 (ESV)

{31 So, whether you eat or drink, or WHATEVER YOU DO, do all to the glory of God.}

And that would include the arts, the sciences, leisure, hobbies, sports, law, medicine, government, work, investments, giving, loving, romance, sex, entertainment, family, friends, church attendance, study of various disciplines, teaching, exhorting, giving a reason for the hope that we have, growing together in our understanding of God's holy word, walking in the Spirit so we don't fulfill the desires of the flesh, a life of constant mental repentance, putting on the mind of Christ, loving God with our whole heart, MIND, and strength, loving our fellow human as ourselves, intercessory prayer, petitions, claiming the actual promises of God in our lives, walking around like Joshua that every step we take is ours for future generations because we belong to the Kingdom of Heaven and the higher authority here on earth, and preaching the Gospel to the glory of God that may fall upon rocky soil and may plant small mustard seeds that may take root in due season, etc.

dermdoc said:

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AnonymousDude said:

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Not Orthodox (big O), but gaining a wealth of meaning and understanding from Orthodox teachings, especially regarding the spiritual life.

Trying to be more orthodox (little o) in my walk w/ Christ.

Blessings.

---

I really enjoy Orthodox teachings also. I often search the Orthodox view on different theological questions as I find it to be very solid.

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I do as well. I've almost finished the Orthodox Survival podcast. And I always enjoy discussions and civil debates with Zobel and Klaus.

As well as you, Doctor. I haven't learned everything yet. And what I have learned…I need to be constantly reminded of because we often forget what we learned due to the life of the mind and the noetic affects of sin on the mind.

Constantly putting off the old man by the power of the Holy Spirit's fruit, putting on the helmet of salvation, and renewing our minds in Christ (Ephesians 4 and Romans 12:1-2)

The word is the word…

TheGreatEscape said:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

If you stand against the sexual revolution, then they call you a Christian nationalist which is the secularists' way of putting the Star of David upon Christians.

And the secularists holy sacrament of blood in which they partake is murderous abortion.

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Not sure I agree when people equate the using the Star of David which is synonymous with the genocide of the Jews, with the current antagonism Christians are experiencing in the U.S. I think you can address it without such a hyperbolic example.

An overwhelming number of Americans believe in God, so we're not anywhere near what the Jews faced in Germany. I can honestly say that I've experiencing more antagonism from other Christians since I joined the Catholic Church than any non-Christians. And even that has been subtle and nuanced. But then I live in Texas.

This idea of religious victimhood seems almost as histrionic as those who feel persecuted like the Jews because they're white.

The pseudo-evolution-pantheism of new atheism and new agnosticism is right on par with Hitler's foundation.

Judeo-Christians could possibly be put into concentration camps down the road in future generations.

Or we could face the guillotine or some more deemed human way of killing Christians like by your French Revolution heroes of the reason can stand alone tenant.

What does Moses tell true Jews who receive the word of the Lord?

Deuteronomy 10:16 ESV

{16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn}

And Christians were also killed in the holocaust among those with boldness enough to stand up to the slaughter house.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

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Or you could just be a Christian that lives "in the world" but is not "of the world". No one is forcing such an all encompassing level of political engagement

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I'm not sure that works anymore. If your kids consume the same media, tech, extra curriculars, and education as the rest of the world with church Wednesday and Sunday night, how are they different? Church and religion as a private good isn't a Christian model but a secular one. You must be able to enter and engage the public sphere with your beliefs, otherwise how are you changed?

AGC said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

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Or you could just be a Christian that lives "in the world" but is not "of the world". No one is forcing such an all encompassing level of political engagement

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I'm not sure that works anymore. If your kids consume the same media, tech, extra curriculars, and education as the rest of the world with church Wednesday and Sunday night, how are they different? Church and religion as a private good isn't a Christian model but a secular one. You must be able to enter and engage the public sphere with your beliefs, otherwise how are you changed?

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Thanks for the response because I've been typing a lot and only have a phone.

I believe that watching filth is disgusting and ought to be avoided. We have pastors showing movies with scenes trying to in some odd way teach Gospel truths that have f-bombs in other scenes. That's the vulgar kind of talk that Paul was condemning. Not when it is used a properly as a point in a Christian declaration for rhetorical purposes in the common vernacular. If you want to know more about that then look of Paul's use of skubalon, which quote possible had more sting in it that the word dung. Koine Greek was a language designed for military orders, battle language, and for non-Greeks to be hellenised. And the Old Testament has a metaphor of a male donkey genitalia description of how the people of God were like a woman remembering former lovers. There are other examples like "May it never be!" May have more sting than that.

But I do believe in Christians developing good and acceptable media and music about all of life.

We need more Chariots of Fire type movies. Speaking of…that would be great to pass on to Coach Elko. It's about competing in running but it applies.


No sir. I don't use emphatic language or cuss words… save only to preach sometimes to people without a Father in heaven in their own vernacular. And sometimes among mature believers beaver dam but not around weaker brothers. I've been using the word "blast" when I make a minor mistake at work and have to fix something.

And we should avoid such speech in front of women and in front of children. They haven't reached that point unless they are on a football field, or in the military being commanded, or on the hay field stacking hay bales with family that only cusses for that terrible operation to prepare a child for real life and possible service. That's how we roll anyway….

It shows that a pastor is likely not studying to show himself well approved enough, if you need movie scenes in a church service…we are supposed to preach the word (pastoral Letters to Timothy).

I have no problem with using movie clips on YouTube or something. But the church service? You are really that dense?

If I understand you correctly, you say that there are only 3 options, Tribalism, Globalism, and Nationalism. You say that nationalism in this country is the Christian option that is patriotism.

I find that interesting because I have always considered myself a Catholic Christian that lives in the USA. I know people of other faith walks that also happen to live in the USA like I do and we share that in common. Not unlike my fellow Aggies that are from Texas and around the world.

Maybe you can break down your idea of so-called Christian nationalism?

TheGreatEscape said:

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It shows that a pastor is likely not studying to show himself well approved enough, if you need movie scenes in a church service…we are supposed to preach the word (pastoral Letters to Timothy).

I have no problem with using movie clips on YouTube or something. But the church service? You are really that dense?

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At my church, Brazos Fellowship, we have At the Movies every July.

The pastor takes movies and uses them to show Christian truths and themes. Nothing vulgar or sexual. And pretty effective as there are always 1-10 professions of faith at those services. And last week, the pastor did Elf for At the movies at Christmas.

I do not see a problem with it. It is fascinating that we rarely kept our two daughters from anything but they avoided that on their own. No tattoos, alcohol or drug problems, kids out of wedlock, no piercings except for ears, both graduated from college (including my special needs daughter who got her Masters walking to class at TWU as she can not drive), etc.

I always thought if you were too strict your kids would be more rebellious. Whatever, it worked out great. And they were surrounded by love at church, school, home, and extended family.

Do not make this too complicated. We just always had faith God would work it out.

"kids out of wedlock"

I wonder what Joseph was thinking when Mary told him about her, umm, miraculous message.

PabloSerna said:

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"kids out of wedlock"

I wonder what Joseph was thinking when Mary told him about her, umm, miraculous message.

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Mary, you some 'splainin' to do.

I believe the Bible is pretty clear that legalism leads to rebellion and sin.

lol- I love how the Bible is full of these situations. Jesus being a refugee, the apostles not washing their hands, Jesus being unimpressed with the Temple of Jerusalem- so many.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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It shows that a pastor is likely not studying to show himself well approved enough, if you need movie scenes in a church service…we are supposed to preach the word (pastoral Letters to Timothy).

I have no problem with using movie clips on YouTube or something. But the church service? You are really that dense?

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At my church, Brazos Fellowship, we have At the Movies every July.

The pastor takes movies and uses them to show Christian truths and themes. Nothing vulgar or sexual. And pretty effective as there are always 1-10 professions of faith at those services. And last week, the pastor did Elf for At the movies at Christmas.

I do not see a problem with it. It is fascinating that we rarely kept our two daughters from anything but they avoided that on their own. No tattoos, alcohol or drug problems, kids out of wedlock, no piercings except for ears, both graduated from college (including my special needs daughter who got her Masters walking to class at TWU as she can not drive), etc.

I always thought if you were too strict your kids would be more rebellious. Whatever, it worked out great. And they were surrounded by love at church, school, home, and extended family.

Do not make this too complicated. We just always had faith God would work it out.

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I gracefully concede my position.


I respect you enough to say that those were just my concerns. I guess the good thing is that fruit is coming from it and people are meeting the Lord as he draws them into the Kingdom as their Father.

I guess it is also good worldview training to see that God has dispersed his truth in bits and pieces throughout the history of all creation.

PabloSerna said:

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If I understand you correctly, you say that there are only 3 options, Tribalism, Globalism, and Nationalism. You say that nationalism in this country is the Christian option that is patriotism.

I find that interesting because I have always considered myself a Catholic Christian that lives in the USA. I know people of other faith walks that also happen to live in the USA like I do and we share that in common. Not unlike my fellow Aggies that are from Texas and around the world.

Maybe you can break down your idea of so-called Christian nationalism?

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Hey Pablo,

The kind of Christianity which holds to the creeds, like you do, unites us in a common brotherhood like no other bond of unity in the entire cosmos. Yes. Yes. Yes. We Christians have served this great nation from the beginning.

The British called the American Revolution the Presbyterian War. So, we go wayyyyy back.

"Elect from every nation, tribe, and language (Revelation).

And there is nothing wrong that other faiths have borrowed from the Judeo-Christian worldview to walk along side us as good historic Americans some day, hopefully.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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It shows that a pastor is likely not studying to show himself well approved enough, if you need movie scenes in a church service…we are supposed to preach the word (pastoral Letters to Timothy).

I have no problem with using movie clips on YouTube or something. But the church service? You are really that dense?

---

At my church, Brazos Fellowship, we have At the Movies every July.

The pastor takes movies and uses them to show Christian truths and themes. Nothing vulgar or sexual. And pretty effective as there are always 1-10 professions of faith at those services. And last week, the pastor did Elf for At the movies at Christmas.

I do not see a problem with it. It is fascinating that we rarely kept our two daughters from anything but they avoided that on their own. No tattoos, alcohol or drug problems, kids out of wedlock, no piercings except for ears, both graduated from college (including my special needs daughter who got her Masters walking to class at TWU as she can not drive), etc.

I always thought if you were too strict your kids would be more rebellious. Whatever, it worked out great. And they were surrounded by love at church, school, home, and extended family.

Do not make this too complicated. We just always had faith God would work it out.

---

I gracefully concede my position.


I respect you enough to say that those were just my concerns. I guess the good thing is that fruit is coming from it and people are meeting the Lord as he draws them into the Kingdom as their Father.

I guess it is also good worldview training to see that God has dispersed his truth in bits and pieces throughout the history of all creation.

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No worries. Merry Christmas!

And as I have stated before, you are the most gracious Calvinist poster I have ever been exposed to.

PabloSerna said:

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lol- I love how the Bible is full of these situations. Jesus being a refugee, the apostles not washing their hands, Jesus being unimpressed with the Temple of Jerusalem- so many.

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Yes. I plan on writing another very long post on purification laws and the like which falls under the Ceremonial Law.

And yes….Jesus was a refugee for a period of time. For the family of God took Jesus and left to Egypt because King Herod was another baby killer in history. But then they returned. That's the rest of the story missing in the negative rhetoric.

It's a possibility that the people active in making Christ famous in all of the world and in these United States which we invented, will have to leave for awhile until everyone destroys this country like what happened to Rome.

And no…btw…we are against the clergy being elected representatives. That was a huge mistake that Rome made as the Catholic Christians were handed the keys from Rome because things got so bad. They were like here. You Christians take over. We quit.

The Eastern Orthodox Church and virtually every historic Protestant that I know of does NOT want clergy as their representatives on both the state and federal level.

I just stated federal which is funny to me.

What is Christian Nationalism?

Well…we are working that out. That way when Christendom 2.0 arrives, we will be better prepared this time from the lessons of history. For we Christians have this gift of repentance from the sheer grace of God on our lives.

I'll probably lay down bits and pieces. But it's a community project. Please join in the conversation and share your concerns. Is isn't free speech beautiful?
Christianity invented it.

I think it starts with relational concepts like these.

Ephesians 4:31-32 (KJV)

{31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.}

I just love the 16th Century Elizabethan English sometimes.

AGC said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

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Or you could just be a Christian that lives "in the world" but is not "of the world". No one is forcing such an all encompassing level of political engagement

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I'm not sure that works anymore. If your kids consume the same media, tech, extra curriculars, and education as the rest of the world with church Wednesday and Sunday night, how are they different? Church and religion as a private good isn't a Christian model but a secular one. You must be able to enter and engage the public sphere with your beliefs, otherwise how are you changed?

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I just don't see anywhere in Scripture or any Christian tradition that mandates political activism. There's nothing holy or noble about diving headfirst into a secular power struggle. At some point our society decided that everyone had to have some kind of political crusade, but that's a uniquely American social viewpoint that is only tangentially related to Christianity. Christianity doesn't need political power, and it never did. It thrives under persecution or disinterest as much as it does when it's in charge of everything. In fact, I'd say that in the combination of Christianity with political power, the political power is only slightly changed for the better and the involved Christianity changes greatly for the worse

ramblin_ag02 said:

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AGC said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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We have three options here in the USA. We have the option of tribalism. The option of globalism. And the Christian option of nationalism which unites us in true patriotism.

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Or you could just be a Christian that lives "in the world" but is not "of the world". No one is forcing such an all encompassing level of political engagement

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I'm not sure that works anymore. If your kids consume the same media, tech, extra curriculars, and education as the rest of the world with church Wednesday and Sunday night, how are they different? Church and religion as a private good isn't a Christian model but a secular one. You must be able to enter and engage the public sphere with your beliefs, otherwise how are you changed?

---

I just don't see anywhere in Scripture or any Christian tradition that mandates political activism. There's nothing holy or noble about diving headfirst into a secular power struggle. At some point our society decided that everyone had to have some kind of political crusade, but that's a uniquely American social viewpoint that is only tangentially related to Christianity. Christianity doesn't need political power, and it never did. It thrives under persecution or disinterest as much as it does when it's in charge of everything. In fact, I'd say that in the combination of Christianity with political power, the political power is only slightly changed for the better and the involved Christianity changes greatly for the worse

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What's the difference between activism and engagement? Should wilberforce have ignored the great evil of slavery (or Constantine) and simply relinquished it to the secular state, saying they don't see a call in scripture? What talents did they have to use, if not those? What talents do we have, if not our votes and ability to run for office and govern?

I think your argument at some point suggests we shouldn't vote for candidates with Christian morals or expect Christians to work toward a Christian state. There is an undoing of Christianity in this response (though I view it as unintentional): you claim as a Christian to know God and to serve Him and do right. Can you, with God given power to vote or govern, suddenly abdicate this knowledge or capability and still be a Christian? Can you oversee administering abortions or slavery while knowing it to be evil and still serve God?

Christ's call is totality, not plurality. Communities that thrive underground must go above ground or they have stopped thriving. It's an unfinished argument. Would you hide the light of the city on the hill because you're worried it will no longer flourish?

Tell that to the early Christians in Rome who were being killed, tortured, or imprisoned for preaching that Christ is King. They took over secular culture and politics. That's what we are called to do in the great commission. We are to disciple the nations on the national level.

I've already provided enough scripture to support this.

There are many examples of this in Christian history.
And it's why Christianity designed our Republican Democracy. It's why Christians made the best state universities in the world and private ones as well.

It's why we invented the hospital and developed medicine.

It's why we invented common law which is the foundation of our case law system.

We never check our faith at the door of wherever we serve.
All of Christ for all of life.

The huguenots of the early Reformed Tradition tried to impact their culture in all spheres of sovereignty because Christ is King and were mostly slaughtered.

The Puritans took over England in the Glorious Revolution of 1689 and limited the power of the monarchy for years after it was reintroduced. The Puritan's English Bill of Rights is what Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Baptists, and Catholics in the new world established the 1st amendment, which in many ways reflects the English Bill of Rights.

Forgot to mention the Quakers…

Anyway, God bless you in your studies.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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It shows that a pastor is likely not studying to show himself well approved enough, if you need movie scenes in a church service…we are supposed to preach the word (pastoral Letters to Timothy).

I have no problem with using movie clips on YouTube or something. But the church service? You are really that dense?

---

At my church, Brazos Fellowship, we have At the Movies every July.

The pastor takes movies and uses them to show Christian truths and themes. Nothing vulgar or sexual. And pretty effective as there are always 1-10 professions of faith at those services. And last week, the pastor did Elf for At the movies at Christmas.

I do not see a problem with it. It is fascinating that we rarely kept our two daughters from anything but they avoided that on their own. No tattoos, alcohol or drug problems, kids out of wedlock, no piercings except for ears, both graduated from college (including my special needs daughter who got her Masters walking to class at TWU as she can not drive), etc.

I always thought if you were too strict your kids would be more rebellious. Whatever, it worked out great. And they were surrounded by love at church, school, home, and extended family.

Do not make this too complicated. We just always had faith God would work it out.

---

I gracefully concede my position.


I respect you enough to say that those were just my concerns. I guess the good thing is that fruit is coming from it and people are meeting the Lord as he draws them into the Kingdom as their Father.

I guess it is also good worldview training to see that God has dispersed his truth in bits and pieces throughout the history of all creation.

---

No worries. Merry Christmas!

And as I have stated before, you are the most gracious Calvinist poster I have ever been exposed to.

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Well…I learned that we are saved by grace and grow in knowledge of our savior. But we are not saved by knowledge, we are saved by the Spirit whom ultimately saved us by grace alone in Christ alone and to the glory of God alone…which brings us the knowledge we need.

And I don't know who you've been talking to online cage stagers or what not. But I learned my charity from the Reformed Tradition.

In my opinion, "the pill" is the greatest evil perpetrated by mankind in the 20th century.

Resulted in more deaths physically and spiritually than any other single item, person or even philosophy.

Quote:

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What's the difference between activism and engagement? Should wilberforce have ignored the great evil of slavery (or Constantine) and simply relinquished it to the secular state, saying they don't see a call in scripture? What talents did they have to use, if not those? What talents do we have, if not our votes and ability to run for office and govern?

I think your argument at some point suggests we shouldn't vote for candidates with Christian morals or expect Christians to work toward a Christian state. There is an undoing of Christianity in this response (though I view it as unintentional): you claim as a Christian to know God and to serve Him and do right. Can you, with God given power to vote or govern, suddenly abdicate this knowledge or capability and still be a Christian? Can you oversee administering abortions or slavery while knowing it to be evil and still serve God?

Christ's call is totality, not plurality. Communities that thrive underground must go above ground or they have stopped thriving. It's an unfinished argument. Would you hide the light of the city on the hill because you're worried it will no longer flourish?

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This is all good but ultimately beside the point of Christianity. The point of all political power is to gain the ability to tell others what they can and can't do, and to do keep others from telling you what you can and can't do. It's all focused on physical desires, material wealth, and earthly concerns in general. Politics has no control over virtue, goodness, or love. We Christians are called to care about the latter and eschew the former. As such, politics is only a distraction. Focus on virtue, goodness, and love. Either you will flourish or you'll be martyred, or something in between. Any of those ultimate fates are acceptable to us. It doesn't matter what the world does to us. That's not our problem. We follow Christ for eternal gain, not to gain some sort of earthly improvement or avoid earthly hardship.

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The Puritans took over England in the Glorious Revolution of 1689 and limited the power of the monarchy for years after it was reintroduced. The Puritan's English Bill of Rights is what Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Anglicans, Baptists, and Catholics in the new world established the 1st amendment, which in many ways reflects the English Bill of Rights.

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The Puritans are a fantastic example. While they were persecuted and in the minority in England, they were paragons of religious tolerance and were generally generous and beneficent to everyone. As soon as they had an overwhelming majority in the New World colonies and no longer feared persecution, they became religious tyrants. That's just how politics works. The powerless and oppressed want freedom and tolerance. The powerful want control and tyranny. Doesn't matter if it's based on religion, ethnicity, gender, political party, or anything else. In politics, the weak want the good of all and the strong want what is good for them, even if the weak and strong swap places every 4 years.