TheGreatEscape said:

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Where in the Bible has God changed from the Old Testament in the New Testament?

Where in the Bible does God obligate himself to save everyone?

And also…God would be just in sending everyone to hell, correct?

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Never said God changed from the OT to the NT.

Do you agree that Jesus is the perfect revelation of God and His character?

And sure God can do whatever He wants. He is obligated to no human.

And He is completely sovereign.

But that is not what this is about.

This is all about God's character. And Jesus revealed that perfectly.

And you can tap dance around it but double predestination means God creates people who have no chance of salvation and are doomed to hell. Without a chance. And that is not how God revealed Himself through Jesus in my opinion.

And I am unaware of family covenant as being a part of Calvinist theology that somehow means your family is part of the elect

But that could be my lack of knowledge.

Edited to say I found this
http://www.prca.org/resources/publications/pamphlets/item/619-the-covenant-of-god-and-the-children-of-believers

And I agree with most of that. I disagree with what he said about the Baptist belief on this.

TheGreatEscape said:

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We will see if anyone participates. It is ok either way.

I'd like to start a thread about sharing if we were raised by Scripture affirming parents (yes, Catholics and Orthodox count).

Are you a Christian who still affirms the authority of the Scripture and attends church?

Are you a Christian who still affirms the authority of Scripture but do not attend a church right now?

Or did your parents not go to church? Maybe they were atheists or agnostics or of some other religion? Did they believe in God and the Bible and still not take you to church?

Also, feel free to share about what Christian tradition you are apart of and if you've journeyed to another tradition.

Of course, some are non-denom. And that's fine. But it's still a tradition.

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I think I've run the gambit in my exploration of Christianity.

I very loosely attended a Methodist Church in my youth. Probably went less than 20 times until high school.

In high school, a girl I dated and her family went to a "Bible Church" with a DTS Pastor. Followed that into college where I was at Grace Bible Church.

Graduated and stopped going to church, but felt the draw always.

Eventually made my way back and explored the gambit. Church of Christ, Calvinism, Rome. Catholic Answers was instrumental in my decision not to pursue Roman Catholicism. I would listen to their claims and when I researched them, would find they were half truths at best.

My wife was nominally Lutheran and I attended an LCMS church. However, I really wanted to join the EO. Went so far as to attend the instructional classes and thought I had a home. However, as much as I loved the teachings of the EO, something always felt off.

I don't remember what prompted me to do it, but I saw a recommendation to read the "The Examination of the Council of Trent" by Martin Chemnitz. I've said it on here before, but that book was the catalyst for my final landing point in Lutheranism. I've been there now for a while and the more I read and study, the more I find myself in the right home.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Where in the Bible has God changed from the Old Testament in the New Testament?

Where in the Bible does God obligate himself to save everyone?

And also…God would be just in sending everyone to hell, correct?

---

Never said God changed from the OT to the NT.

Do you agree that Jesus is the perfect revelation of God and His character?

And sure God can do whatever He wants. He is obligated to no human.

And He is completely sovereign.

But that is not what this is about.

This is all about God's character. And Jesus revealed that perfectly.

And you can tap dance around it but double predestination means God creates people who have no chance of salvation and are doomed to hell. Without a chance. And that is not how God revealed Himself through Jesus in my opinion.

And I am unaware of family covenant as being a part of Calvinist theology that somehow means your family is part of the elect

But that could be my lack of knowledge.

Edited to say I found this
http://www.prca.org/resources/publications/pamphlets/item/619-the-covenant-of-god-and-the-children-of-believers

And I agree with most of that. I disagree with what he said about the Baptist belief on this.

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John 6 clearly shows three times that the office of Jesus is broadly open to everyone. The elect are numbered on the the earth by the Father, at least while Jesus was on earth (see Philippians emptying out of Christ passage).

John 6:37 (ESV)

"37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

John 6:44 (ESV)

"44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. "

John 6:65 (ESV)

65 "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."






Secondly, Christ is revealed in the Old Testament as well. It's the gospel according to Abraham, for instance.

God created man and they fell with Adam under the dominion of sin. Let's look at the character of God and his holiness.

Psalm 5:5-6
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. "

Romans 9:13-15
"As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."


Psalm 11:5
"The LORD tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

"You hear this statement all the time. It comes under the category of us trying to help out God. There are elements of the revelation of God that are difficult for us to take. One of these is anytime we associate the word "hate" with God. It's hard for us to do that, but we have it in Scripture.

This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: "Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved" (Mal. 1:23). We have to be very careful that we don't think we are somehow helping God by improving His PR. We have to be governed by the text.

Now, I don't think this means we run around saying, "God hates these particular sinners," or, "God hates this particular group," and hold banners up, parading up and down the street, saying, "God hates (fill in the social group)." I don't think that's the call for us, but neither do I think there is merit in saying "God loves the sinner but hates the sin."

What we do need to talk about is this: I was a worse sinner than anyone whom we say God hates. We all were. We need to understand, as R.C. said many times, that the smallest sin is an affront to the holiness of God and brings down the thundering wrath of God upon us.

When we slip into these kinds of statements we think we're doing God a favor, but we're not doing sinners a favor because we're not helping them see the wrath of God or what that means. Until they see that, they don't see their true need for a substitute, and they don't fully understand what Christ was doing on the cross. So, sometimes we have to be careful about how we want to help God's PR."

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/is-it-true-that-god-loves-the-sinner-but-hates-the-sin

Thanks TexasAggie.

The Latin phrase in English…"While I breathe, I hope"

Texaggie7nine said:

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Born and raised in Baptist then parents moved onto full gospel/non-denom when I was around 8 or 9. Born again at 7. Scripture was absolutely taken as the living word of God and the single largest focus.

Stayed in very active church participation through mid teens then kind of fell out of regularly attending church. In my early 20s after getting a job and some regularity in my life, started going back to full gospel church.

Fell off a few years later.

Started questioning it all but C.S. Lewis kept me in for a few years.
First by switching to Annihilationism. Then Universalism.

Eventually completely to agnosticism with 0 belief in the scripture as being divine.

It is interesting to go back through my posts on this and other religious debating boards all through that journey.

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Thanks.

Was it the traditional concept of hell that drove you away first?

Or the presence of so much evil and suffering in the world?

Truly curious.

I have a dear friend who used to even be a lay preacher that lost his faith when his mom died from cancer at MD Anderson and he saw all the kids with cancer.

Do you believe that there is no final justice for the mass murderous crimes committed?

A spirit world can be proven medically via the thousands of cases of clinically dead people "returning" only to detail conversations, objects on the roof, ect.

I understand agnosticism, but not atheists.

Your understanding of God is so... warped.

I know, right? All of the Reformers talked about the wrath of God due to His Holiness. This caused Rome to be very upset.
We have a ton in common with Roman Catholicism.
I rejoice that you are a devout Catholic.

God is merciful to the world by the light the people of God shine among the darkness. We provide light around us and makes the darkness surrounding us a little more visible than without.

Also, God's love for the world sent His Son into the world so that the entire human race would not perish into death, but have everlasting life.

Ever read the story of Noah and the flood? Only 8 people, who were family members, were saved.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Do you believe that there is no final justice for the mass murderous crimes committed?

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I can't see how anyone deserves eternal punishment. Especially when free will is pretty much an illusion.

Punishment fornthw sake of punishment is about as evil as I can imagine.

It's difficult to accept that we (individualistic) are all connected to what our first parents did. Sin came into the world. God is God and we are not as He has clearly
revealed his character in Scripture.

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases."
(Psalm 115:3)

Psalm 135:6 ESV

"Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps."


Proverbs 16:4

"The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose
even the wicked for the day of disaster."

Daniel 4:35

All the inhabitants of the earth are counted as nothing,
and He does what He wants with the army of heaven
and the inhabitants of the earth.
There is no one who can hold back His hand
or say to Him, "What have You done?"

I will keep you in my prayers. You're still breathing and God alone can change your heart. May the Holy Spirit reveal the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord to you.
May the following occur to you in his timing…

Luke 19:13 (ESV)


But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'

If you do as the above, you will receive mercy and have been
His before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)

"4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love"

(The tax collector received mercy when he heard the Gospel.
May Texaggie not receive justice, but mercy instead!)

For God is merciful to those whom he has called and respond.

Romans 10:13 (ESV)

For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

In Jesus name, amen and amen.

TheGreatEscape said:

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I know, right? All of the Reformers talked about the wrath of God due to His Holiness. This caused Rome to be very upset.
We have a ton in common with Roman Catholicism.
I rejoice that you are a devout Catholic.

God is merciful to the world by the light the people of God shine among the darkness. We provide light around us and makes the darkness surrounding us a little more visible than without.

Also, God's love for the world sent His Son into the world so that the entire human race would not perish into death, but have everlasting life.

Ever read the story of Noah and the flood? Only 8 people, who were family members, were saved.

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I believe the cross changed all that. The weight of sin and God's wrath are gone.

Christians are no longer under the dominion of sin. We are sinners and saints simultaneously. But are freed from the dominion of sin.

So this verse is after the cross.

Romans 1:18

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

We do believe in God's general love for the world and what we call common grace. We believe that there is a special love for the elect. We don't know who is going to be elect and who is not. We play the long game trying to make the world Christian for all who may receive mercy in future generations.

We believe that God's Holiness is His highest attribute.

When God leaves men to their own freewill, they are under the dominion and power of sin. Freewill is good for only sin.

Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds


Ephesians 2:3 - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:20 - "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

Romans 3:10-12 - "no one seeks for God."

Psalm 10:4 - In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, "There is no God."

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled… to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.

Matthew 11:27 - "no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

John 3:27 - John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven."

John 14:16-17 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him."

John 1:12-13 - But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44,65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 11:35-36 - "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things.

1 Corinthians 1:30 - And because of him you are in Christ Jesus

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Acts 16:14 - One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 - And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, [etc.]… God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

John 3:6, 6:63 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."

Colossians 2:13 - And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses
Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked… But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved.

Then what becomes of our boasting in our freewill?


Romans 3:27 - It is excluded.

So is this common grace similar to the Medthodist belief of prevenient grace?

And it appears you do not believe in eternal security or that a person can be assured they are saved?

Sorry the emoticon should have been a question mark.

And this link sums up my view on free will pretty well
https://www.thefaithlog.com/2008/12/c-s-lewis-on-calvinism-and-free-will.html

My man of God,

Yes…I hold to perseverance of the saints. We "invented"eternal security. We have a great assurance in the Scriptures.
The nature of faith is found in that we cannot save ourselves nor be sanctified without relying on God's grace alone. Our wills are more free now that we have the blessings of the covenant. The elect, who fear and love God, respond positively to the warnings in the Scripture concerning the covenantal community of God.

Common Grace is not the Methodist's prevenient grace.
Haven't found a single verse in the Bible supporting the attempt.


"The doctrine of common grace encompasses the biblical teaching about the universal and undeserved goodness of God toward sinners. By common grace, God restrains sin, evil, misery, and wrath in this fallen world, while conferring general, nonredemptive blessings on all mankind. As distinguished from special (saving) grace, common grace is a necessary aspect of the continuance of life in this fallen world. It restrains evil and confers goodness on mankind as a whole, reflecting God's attributes of goodness, mercy, and justice. God confers common grace on mankind to encourage sinners to repent and trust in Christ. On judgment day, the common grace experienced by the unrepentant and their failure to thank God for it will factor into their punishment. "

https://www.ligonier.org/guides/common-grace

TheGreatEscape said:

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My man of God,

Yes…I hold to perseverance of the saints. We "invented"eternal security. We have a great assurance in the Scriptures.
The nature of faith is found in that we cannot save ourselves nor be sanctified without relying on God's grace alone. Our wills are more free now that we have the blessings of the covenant. The elect, who fear and love God, respond positively to the warnings in the Scripture concerning the covenantal community of God.

Common Grace is not the Methodist's prevenient grace.
Haven't found a single verse in the Bible supporting the attempt.


"The doctrine of common grace encompasses the biblical teaching about the universal and undeserved goodness of God toward sinners. By common grace, God restrains sin, evil, misery, and wrath in this fallen world, while conferring general, nonredemptive blessings on all mankind. As distinguished from special (saving) grace, common grace is a necessary aspect of the continuance of life in this fallen world. It restrains evil and confers goodness on mankind as a whole, reflecting God's attributes of goodness, mercy, and justice. God confers common grace on mankind to encourage sinners to repent and trust in Christ. On judgment day, the common grace experienced by the unrepentant and their failure to thank God for it will factor into their punishment. "

https://www.ligonier.org/guides/common-grace

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So you know you are of the elect? I thought Calvinism said no one knew but God who was elect and who was not?

Meaning those who haven't publicly professed that Jesus is Lord. Meaning those who have yet to positively respond by God's grace to the Gospel.

Also, there is a cooperate election and an individual election. "Not all of Israel is Israel" Romans 9:6 also applies to the church.
Those who have received the gift of faith trust the numerous promises that:

Philippians 1:6 (ESV)

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

And it is possible to be in church and be self-deceived.

Same book:

Philippians 2:12 (ESV)

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

TheGreatEscape said:

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Meaning those who haven't publicly professed that Jesus is Lord. Meaning those who have yet to positively respond by God's grace to the Gospel.

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But could not somebody publicly profess and not be truly of the elect since only God knows?

Or do you believe a person would not publicly profess faith in Christ unless they were elect?

I edited the above and it may help answer your questions.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Meaning those who haven't publicly professed that Jesus is Lord. Meaning those who have yet to positively respond by God's grace to the Gospel.

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But could not somebody publicly profess and not be truly of the elect since only God knows?

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God has revealed his love and assurance that his love is unconditional for those who profess. Jesus said, "No one shall be able to pluck them from my hands."

The new convert must be taught these assurances in the Bible. Otherwise, his faith will be merely performance based. His faith would be "He loves me, he loves me not."
That's not going to produce the good fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Mere performance based faith is wood, hay, and stubble in attacking sins. Our sins are combated against in spiritual warfare that is assured by God's grace alone.

dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Meaning those who haven't publicly professed that Jesus is Lord. Meaning those who have yet to positively respond by God's grace to the Gospel.

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Or do you believe a person would not publicly profess faith in Christ unless they were elect?

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We assure them by the promises of Scripture that they receive a sure foundation and build their house on the rock and not on shifting sand. But you're a devout Baptist and know all of these verses and passages.

But can someone profess who wasn't elect? Sure.

1 John 1:9 (ESV)

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

To see the corporate election that I was referring to…

See the first 20 or so verses of 1 Corinthians 10.

88Warrior said:

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I guess I'm an example of "prevenient grace"…I never had a "ah-ha" moment but kinda always knew there was God even as a small child…Something must have been there for this realization to have happened….Both parents we're believers but they never regularly attended church services..I was always drawn to God even without the positive reenforcement of actively practicing parents….There had to have been a seed or something there for my faith to have bloomed?? Also this is my story only..I do have friends who did have an "ah-ha" moment that kicked off their faith/belief…I believe we're all unique in our journey to God…jmho..

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Agree as usual.

Lol. That's because…

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV)

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love,
he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"


and…

Ephesians 1:11 (ESV)

" In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

88Warrior said:

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I guess I'm an example of "prevenient grace"…I never had a "ah-ha" moment but kinda always knew there was God even as a small child…Something must have been there for this realization to have happened….Both parents were believers but they never regularly attended church services..I was always drawn to God even without the positive reenforcement of actively practicing parents….There had to have been a seed or something there for my faith to have bloomed?? Also this is my story only..I do have friends who did have an "ah-ha" moment that kicked off their faith/belief…I believe we're all unique in our journey to God…jmho..

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Per Aquinas, mankind is hardwired to know and love God.

TheGreatEscape said:

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We will see if anyone participates. It is ok either way.

I'd like to start a thread about sharing if we were raised by Scripture affirming parents (yes, Catholics and Orthodox count).

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Raised Southern Baptist (BGCT.) Parents are still in the same church

Quote:

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Are you a Christian who still affirms the authority of the Scripture and attends church?

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Yes

Quote:

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Also, feel free to share about what Christian tradition you are apart of and if you've journeyed to another tradition.

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Switched to a SBTC church when my wife and I got engaged. More of a reformed (4 point) church with no leftward lurch on scripture (not politics)

When we left there and moved away we visited Baptist Churches and didn't care for them any more. We ended up at a Reformed Bible Church .

Been very happy there. I was fairly close minded growing up, but now i'd be happy at any church that holds scripture as authority, repentance as necessary, and Jesus as sole path to salvation. i've attended ARC, Baptist, Catholic, and Methodist churches and been comfortable and blessed with them at different points.

regarding some of the more political points going on, i'm not going to attend a church that is affirming, doesn't hold the scripture as authority, or has women preachers, but i'm not going to lose my mind over it and say it's heresy or anything like i would have probably 10 years ago. I'll let the Lord be the judge of how they handled scripture. I just won't attend.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Meaning those who haven't publicly professed that Jesus is Lord. Meaning those who have yet to positively respond by God's grace to the Gospel.

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But could not somebody publicly profess and not be truly of the elect since only God knows?

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God has revealed his love and assurance that his love is unconditional for those who profess. Jesus said, "No one shall be able to pluck them from my hands."

The new convert must be taught these assurances in the Bible. Otherwise, his faith will be merely performance based. His faith would be "He loves me, he loves me not."
That's not going to produce the good fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Mere performance based faith is wood, hay, and stubble in attacking sins. Our sins are combated against in spiritual warfare that is assured by God's grace alone.

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Does scripture not say that faith without works is dead? Is faith only an intellectual ascension, or is it played out in our actions? And if so, are we incapable of making independent decisions and falling down from time to time due to sin? Of course those sins are forgiven...but it is still sin.

God also requires us to fight the good fight and persevere to the end. If our individual will has completely left us once we accept Christ, then what is the struggle we endure to the end? We give ourselves to Christ, but we might fight temptation with the help of the Holy Spirit daily. Thus if there wasn't a chance that we might give in to sin then we would assume scripture would tell us that its smooth sailing and we will suffer no more in this life after being saved. We are in a state of being saved and we must remain in it through our faith.

We have to desire to produce the good fruit. Certainly the HS gives us the strength and guidance to help us do this, but we still have to endure in this effort.

The easy out for the once saved, always saved crowd is that you might think your saved through genuine faith but if you trip up...you never had 'salvific' faith and thus were never really saved.