Peaceful Palestinians double down, everything was justified

24,834 Views | 358 Replies | Last: 11 mo ago by Terminus Est
bigtruckguy3500
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Yeah, China could absolutely do something like this. Russia is a bit too close with the Assad regime for this to be palatable for Israel/US. The US wouldn't like China in their either, but they are the more neutral of the two.

There is a retired SEAL, Jocko (John Willink), who was saying on his podcast that if he was Israel he would have made this campaign more about ridding the Palestinians of Hamas than about vengence. And I can't remember all the details he talked about, but setting up humanitarian safe zones where the Israelis would give the civilians food and water, and invite them there instead of just saying "go south." Instead of reporting on their military victories, they should be reporting on their humanitarian initiatives.

He's of course no expert on anything just because he is a retired SEAL, but he did a lot of counter insurgency in Iraq.

But that's an interesting take. If they really wanted the world to believe they were doing this for their own defense, and for the sake of liberating the Palestinians from Hamas, they would do more to help the civilians. I'm sure with all the anger in Israel over the attacks that would be hard.

ETA: Actually, thinking about it more, China benefits from having an unstable ME, as currently there are 2 carrier strike groups tied up there, and potentially a MEU. It pulls resources away from protecting Taiwan. So would indeed show a lot of world good will if they step in.
Proposition Joe
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I think if Israel tried to frame this as a "we are freeing the people from Hamas!" it would get absolutely destroyed in the media.

Israel is trying to get rid of Hamas. They have a worldwide population for whatever reason (justified or not) is "untrusting" of what they say.

So kicking off this war with something everyone would know is not being honest I don't think would do them any PR favors.

A little over a month ago they had innocent civilians attacked, murdered, and taken hostage at a music festival. Many of these people are still being held hostage. But the narrative many places has already shifted to "the big bad Israelis attacking poor Gaza".

This is not a fight they are going to win in the media, but after the October 7th attacks, they don't care.

It's saddening to me how quickly people forgot how they felt the evening of 9/11 in regards for the need of evil to be vanquished. If this attack was on U.S. soil -- which there's no reason to believe the next one won't be -- many people would be signing a different tune.
Zobel
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AG
It is only superficially comparable to 9/11 in that both attacks were terrorism. It's foolish to ignore the context here.
Macarthur
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Zobel said:

It is only superficially comparable to 9/11 in that both attacks were terrorism. It's foolish to ignore the context here.
Agree. This and 9/11 have far more differences than similarities.
Macarthur
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There's also some troubling things coming out that emphasize that Israel has been 'clumsy', at best in this. They may have killed some of their own citizens w friendly fire.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

It is only superficially comparable to 9/11 in that both attacks were terrorism. It's foolish to ignore the context here.


What context is that?
nortex97
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AG
Macarthur said:

There's also some troubling things coming out that emphasize that Israel has been 'clumsy', at best in this. They may have killed some of their own citizens w friendly fire.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/
Find me a military operation that went perfectly to plan and…wait, you can't.



The moral challenge isn't to conduct an operation perfectly, and clearly the IDF failed to defend their citizens to such a standard, and does still today as the Gazans are launching unguided rockets still today at population centers in Israel. Disgusting.

Another launch from Syria also targeted an elementary school in Israel with a drone (not an unguided rocket.). The relative moral/human value comparisons are essentially impossible to even make, between the "two" sides, and blaming the uniformed Israeli military for pursuing the terrorists in Gaza who hide out in/under hospitals and beaches etc. vs this sort of sub-human hatred is just beyond most of our philosophical/western wheel houses.



Algorithmic Epiphany
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Sure is a tough world to have an opinion that's accurate.
SirDippinDots
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nortex97 said:

Macarthur said:

There's also some troubling things coming out that emphasize that Israel has been 'clumsy', at best in this. They may have killed some of their own citizens w friendly fire.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/
Find me a military operation that went perfectly to plan and…wait, you can't.



The moral challenge isn't to conduct an operation perfectly, and clearly the IDF failed to defend their citizens to such a standard, and does still today as the Gazans are launching unguided rockets still today at population centers in Israel. Disgusting.

Another launch from Syria also targeted an elementary school in Israel with a drone (not an unguided rocket.). The relative moral/human value comparisons are essentially impossible to even make, between the "two" sides, and blaming the uniformed Israeli military for pursuing the terrorists in Gaza who hide out in/under hospitals and beaches etc. vs this sort of sub-human hatred is just beyond most of our philosophical/western wheel houses.






Israel should be forced into a ceasefire and negotiate the death of all the Jews with this nice Palestinian grandma.

I mean it's only a few bad Palestinians.
Zobel
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AG
I bet you can guess if you think hard.
bigtruckguy3500
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I know everyone on this board has already made up their mind about the situation, but man, this sucks. I'm hearing from doctors in Israel that the IDF is going to start sweeping through the hospitals, and are warning anyone in those hospitals to leave.

lobopride
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Sometimes cancer needs chemo. That chemo kills healthy cells too. It sucks but necessary.

Hamas = cancer
Macarthur
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So babies have to die. Makes me feel so much better.
lobopride
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Macarthur said:

So babies have to die. Makes me feel so much better.


If you really cared about Palestinian babies then you would support what would result in the fewest of them dying (in the long run) which means allowing the Palestinians to get out from under Hamas' thumb.
Macarthur
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lobopride said:

Macarthur said:

So babies have to die. Makes me feel so much better.


If you really cared about Palestinian babies then you would support what would result in the fewest of them dying (in the long run) which means allowing the Palestinians to get out from under Hamas' thumb.


So the killing of over 4000 kids since 10/7 will result in fewer of them dying? Help me with the logic here…
lobopride
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Macarthur said:

lobopride said:

Macarthur said:

So babies have to die. Makes me feel so much better.


If you really cared about Palestinian babies then you would support what would result in the fewest of them dying (in the long run) which means allowing the Palestinians to get out from under Hamas' thumb.


So the killing of over 4000 kids since 10/7 will result in fewer of them dying? Help me with the logic here…


Because if Hamas isn't destroyed what has happened in the past month will happen over and over again countless times.
bigtruckguy3500
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lobopride said:

Sometimes cancer needs chemo. That chemo kills healthy cells too. It sucks but necessary.

Hamas = cancer
Except these aren't just cells. These are human lives. Certainly more alive than a clump of cells in the womb, which most here are against killing.

These also aren't exactly instant killings. Thousands are dying slow painful deaths from this trauma.

I suspect you haven't really watched videos or seen pictures of the suffering. I don't think anyone can view those pictures and see them as just cells that need to die to take out Hamas. But obviously we're all shaped by a different set of values and experience from our lives.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Friends and families have always supported partisans, soldiers, rebels, and even terrorists. During any conflict you have combatants and civilians. Attacking civilians either makes you a tyrant or a terrorist, depending on whether you are in power or not. Even if the elderly and children of Gaza fully support Hamas, which is an open question, they are still civilian non-combatants. They are no more valid targets than any other group of civilians in any other conflict

Edit: and I realize that Hamas is notoriously bad for using their civilian friends and families as human shields. But I think everyone here agrees that Hamas is evil and terrible
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SirDippinDots
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Friends and families have always supported partisans, soldiers, rebels, and even terrorists. During any conflict you have combatants and civilians. Attacking civilians either makes you a tyrant or a terrorist, depending on whether you are in power or not. Even if the elderly and children of Gaza fully support Hamas, which is an open question, they are still civilian non-combatants. They are no more valid targets than any other group of civilians in any other conflict

Edit: and I realize that Hamas is notoriously bad for using their civilian friends and families as human shields. But I think everyone here agrees that Hamas is evil and terrible


It is a war so they are valid targets until Hamas unconditionally surrenders.
Sapper Redux
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Civilians are not valid targets in a war. They never have been under any "Just War," formulation.
Macarthur
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So odd to me that so many would be so cavalier about so many women and kids deaths.
SirDippinDots
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Sapper Redux said:

Civilians are not valid targets in a war. They never have been under any "Just War," formulation.


So much more moral killing soldiers since they are not real people with real families? They are just machines to serve the state?

I reject that logic. War is inherently awful, unjust and evil. Sometimes in this world it is unfortunately necessary.
nortex97
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AG
bigtruckguy3500 said:

I know everyone on this board has already made up their mind about the situation, but man, this sucks. I'm hearing from doctors in Israel that the IDF is going to start sweeping through the hospitals, and are warning anyone in those hospitals to leave.


I think you maybe fall for propaganda most of us see through. The easiest way to avoid fighting in a hospital is for the Gazans in the hospital not to fight the IDF in the hospitals.



Most of the rest of us are skeptical of scenes these crisis actors portray with regularity around hospitals/children;



nortex97
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

Civilians are not valid targets in a war. They never have been under any "Just War," formulation.
I was wondering if you'd pop up here. Hamas is fighting an 'irregular' war against Israel using playgrounds, schools, and hospitals as war weapons/depots/staging areas.

They hand guns to kids for props and train them to perform videos attacking jews/israel. I too am appalled at their conduct, like you, and am glad Israel has done an increasingly great job integrating her arab citizens, while working to protect them from such further exploitation/terrorism.



Meanwhile, a huge slaughter of non-jihadi's who are apparently all civilians. I see no outcry from our 'left' friends, atheists or otherwise. Sad, when morality and judgment of others is based on the politics involved.

B-1 83
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AG
I'm amazed that some posters cannot differentiate between targeting and butchering civilians (what Hamas did) vs. collateral damage to civilians because of where Hamas put militarily significant targets and Hamas' apparent refusal to let civilians seek safety.

Then again, I see who the posters are, and it is SOP for them.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
Zobel
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AG
Enough with the motte and bailey arguments.
nortex97
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AG
Zobel said:

Enough with the motte and bailey arguments.
I find the side you choose to respect quite interesting/revealing.
B-1 83
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AG
Zobel said:

Enough with the motte and bailey arguments.
This is anything but. If you can't see the difference, then it says worlds about the worth of your opinion in this situation.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
Zobel
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AG
There are people in this thread saying that any Palestinian who supports Hamas is a valid target and who have advocated for ethnic cleansing and soft danced around genocide using the Amalekites as an example. -> motte

Everyone agrees that civilian causalities occur as collateral damage in war. It is a tragic reality. No one is arguing that point. No one here supports Hamas or terrorism -> Bailey

The side I choose to respect is the basic principles of the value of all human life as created in the image of God and the teaching of the Church with regard to warfare. Including, incidentally, the law given for war in the Torah that ostensibly the Jewish people in Israel also hold as sacred.

I don't support either side in this conflict. The whole thing is evil.
nortex97
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AG
Zobel said:

There are people in this thread saying that any Palestinian who supports Hamas is a valid target and who have advocated for ethnic cleansing and soft danced around genocide using the Amalekites as an example. -> motte

Everyone agrees that civilian causalities occur as collateral damage in war. It is a tragic reality. No one is arguing that point. No one here supports Hamas or terrorism -> Bailey

The side I choose to respect is the basic principles of the value of all human life as created in the image of God and the teaching of the Church with regard to warfare. Including, incidentally, the law given for war in the Torah that ostensibly the Jewish people in Israel also hold as sacred.

I don't support either side in this conflict. The whole thing is evil.





Life is about choices. Choosing not to choose is a choice, indeed. Leftists and islam apologists everywhere appreciate your choice.
Zobel
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AG
Your keyboard warrior stance does literally nothing more to stop Hamas' terrorism as my not supporting Israel.

And I'm not a leftist or a supporter of Islam.
nortex97
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AG
Zobel said:

Your keyboard warrior stance does literally nothing more to stop Hamas' terrorism as my not supporting Israel.

And I'm not a leftist or a supporter of Islam.
Ah, name calling again. Your side is clear. As is your choice, or election.

Moral clarity is easy to discern among folks who are anything between vapid shallow philosophers/scholars, and deeply serious thinkers alike, in times like this.
Zobel
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AG
I note you don't dispute the point.

Moral clarity is pretty darn clear, yeah. Terrorism and targeting of civilians are bad and wrong, regardless of who is doing it.
Zobel
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AG
Also moral clarity is pretty interesting coming from you given that the most charitable interpretation of your stance on Russia-Ukraine is similar to my views about the situation in Israel.
bigtruckguy3500
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nortex97 said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

I know everyone on this board has already made up their mind about the situation, but man, this sucks. I'm hearing from doctors in Israel that the IDF is going to start sweeping through the hospitals, and are warning anyone in those hospitals to leave.


I think you maybe fall for propaganda most of us see through. The easiest way to avoid fighting in a hospital is for the Gazans in the hospital not to fight the IDF in the hospitals.



Most of the rest of us are skeptical of scenes these crisis actors portray with regularity around hospitals/children;




So, I mean there's definitely fake news on both sides of the conflict. I mean Biden even said he saw photos of beheaded babies, then we find out later that this was a false claim and he never saw such pictures. There are reports that a decent number of Israeli casualties on Oct 7 was actually due to Israeli friendly fire and the fog of war. Doesn't make it any better, or absolve blame from Hamas in any way.

Interesting videos though. The second video I had seen on Aljazeera's YouTube channel and, according to individuals translating in the replies, says nothing about it being for the pictures. He's just saying he's alright and not to worry.

In the first video I think he's actually referring to the Arab countries, not to Arabs in Gaza. I suspect he's suggesting that the Arab countries have abandoned them, while the Israelis have given them more recently (at least prior to the current war, but I'm just making assumptions at this point based on what my Google Translate translated).

I think it's certainly easy, and it's natural coping mechanism, to dismiss death and destruction you're not closely involved with as fake, or propaganda. Dehumanizing the other side is also a normal coping mechanism to justify killing and death. It's often why during war we often create caricatures of the enemy. Our brains do work in interesting ways to rationalize what we see.

Good on Israel for offering some fuel and to help move the babies at least:


 
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