Peaceful Palestinians double down, everything was justified

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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 3:53p, 11/12/23
AG
SirDippinDots said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
Friends and families have always supported partisans, soldiers, rebels, and even terrorists. During any conflict you have combatants and civilians. Attacking civilians either makes you a tyrant or a terrorist, depending on whether you are in power or not. Even if the elderly and children of Gaza fully support Hamas, which is an open question, they are still civilian non-combatants. They are no more valid targets than any other group of civilians in any other conflict

Edit: and I realize that Hamas is notoriously bad for using their civilian friends and families as human shields. But I think everyone here agrees that Hamas is evil and terrible


It is a war so they are valid targets until Hamas unconditionally surrenders.
Congrats. You hold the same moral convictions as Hamas regarding killing civilians
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 4:01p, 11/12/23
SirDippinDots said:
Sapper Redux said:
Civilians are not valid targets in a war. They never have been under any "Just War," formulation.


So much more moral killing soldiers since they are not real people with real families? They are just machines to serve the state?

I reject that logic. War is inherently awful, unjust and evil. Sometimes in this world it is unfortunately necessary.
Soldiers are legitimate targets. They're trained, armed, and serving to promote the war aims of their side. No one is saying war is pleasant. For ****'s sake, I've got far more experience with this than the average person. The fact that soldiers are people does not justify targeting civilians. "War is inherently awful," does not mean the best solution is to jump to the maximal approach that winds up killing the most.

I'm saying this as someone who thinks Israel is justified in attacking Hamas and entering Gaza. I realize that the hospitals and schools are being used by Hamas to provide cover for their operations and to help drive outrage against Israel. These guys aren't stupid. I fought enough terrorists over the years to know that these guys are extremely smart and know what buttons to push.

AND YET, it still does not justify shelling heavily populated areas and infrastructure that is crucial to the survival of civilians. It does not help you in the long run, even if it has an immediate beneficial impact. In the long run, it would be better for Israel to suffer more combat casualties than to torch their chances at improving diplomatic ties with their neighbors. As crass as that may sound, it's the logic of war.
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nortex97
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In reply to Zobel • 4:14p, 11/12/23
AG
Zobel said:
Also moral clarity is pretty interesting coming from you given that the most charitable interpretation of your stance on Russia-Ukraine is similar to my views about the situation in Israel.
Nice conflation of an irrelevant topic to defend your lack of moral compass.

"Our" support for the dirt bags in Kiev who have done as much as the ones in Moscow to get 400K killed in Ukraine, is not in any way at all analogous to Gazan Hamas vs. IDF. But similarly, you lack the willingness or courage to call that leftist ally/political situation out.

What a vapid response, as I'd expect, similar to the other/subsequent one somehow claiming to cite Joe Biden's citation of decapitated infants as a justification. This forum's 'regulars' lack all intellectual honesty, so again I am unsurprised.
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Zobel
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In reply to nortex97 • 4:39p, 11/12/23
AG
What on earth are you talking about?

Russia vs Ukraine has an aggressor who has committed atrocities. Your stance is I don't support either side.

Israel Vs Hamas has an aggressor who has committed atrocities. My stance is I don't support either side.

I don't agree with your take on Russia - Ukraine, but that doesn't mean refusing to support either side is implicit support for one or the other.

My lack of moral compass? Get over yourself.
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nortex97
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In reply to Zobel • 5:02p, 11/12/23
AG
Zobel said:
What on earth are you talking about?

Russia vs Ukraine has an aggressor who has committed atrocities. Your stance is I don't support either side.

Israel Vs Hamas has an aggressor who has committed atrocities. My stance is I don't support either side.

I don't agree with your take on Russia - Ukraine, but that doesn't mean refusing to support either side is implicit support for one or the other.

My lack of moral compass? Get over yourself.
Both sides in Ukraine have committed atrocities, and care not a whit about the Russian or Ukrainian cannon fodder. The war has led to a spike in global hunger and inflation due to the disruption in food/energy as attributable to the imminent need of Kiev to for some reason join Nato. Fine. You are ok with it.

You don't support Israel vs. Hamas. Because that is just too complicated a decision to make I guess. "Both sides are doing horrible things." Mmkay.

You lack a respectable moral compass, imho. I don't agree with your take on Russia-Ukraine or Israel-Hamas. You brought up the former. Get over it.
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Zobel
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5:58p, 11/12/23
AG
You don't have to support Hamas or Israel or Russia or Ukraine to condemn terrorism and attacks against civilians.

I'm not ok with Russia invading Ukraine. I'm not ok with Hamas attacking civilians. I'm also not ok with the Likud party or their history as Irgun.

What's absurd is the idea that being against genocide, ethnic cleansing, and indiscriminate civilian killing is in any way indicative of a lack of a moral compass. If those things don't apply to you or "your side" then great, we have no issue. Otherwise people protest too much.

The motte and bailey tactics are a waste of time. No one disagrees with the bailey positions. It's the motte that people keep objecting to, and then keep defending the bailey.
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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to Zobel • 7:29p, 11/12/23
I'm curious: Is there any war in world history that you do see as a clear-cut good-versus-evil conflict?
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Zobel
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In reply to BonfireNerd04 • 8:14p, 11/12/23
AG
Probably not, although there are lesser evils. To be honest I would expect anyone with adult sensibilities to say no. Good vs evil is in storybooks not geopolitics. Reality is never that simple.

That being said, the situation in Israel is probably one of the more ambiguous - not because there aren't "bad guys" but because their genesis is a symptom of a larger situation.
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bigtruckguy3500
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8:19p, 11/12/23
Everyone seems to conflate support for Palestinians, or opposition to minimal regard for sparing civilians, as implicit support for Hamas. Which is an unfortunate, and in my opinion an incorrect, way of looking at this.
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lobopride
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 4:50a, 11/13/23
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Everyone seems to conflate support for Palestinians, or opposition to minimal regard for sparing civilians, as implicit support for Hamas. Which is an unfortunate, and in my opinion an incorrect, way of looking at this.


Anyone that actually cared about the Palestinians would support the total annihilation of Hamas.
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nortex97
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In reply to Zobel • 6:11a, 11/13/23
AG
Zobel said:
You don't have to support Hamas or Israel or Russia or Ukraine to condemn terrorism and attacks against civilians.

I'm not ok with Russia invading Ukraine. I'm not ok with Hamas attacking civilians. I'm also not ok with the Likud party or their history as Irgun.

What's absurd is the idea that being against genocide, ethnic cleansing, and indiscriminate civilian killing is in any way indicative of a lack of a moral compass. If those things don't apply to you or "your side" then great, we have no issue. Otherwise people protest too much.

The motte and bailey tactics are a waste of time. No one disagrees with the bailey positions. It's the motte that people keep objecting to, and then keep defending the bailey.
The likud party didn't commit genocide this year. It's a category that is very different than the other things you listed, as I could perhaps most charitably view your 'morally consistent' abhorrence for genocide and ethnic cleansing.



I know, you just want those poor civilians to be ok/safe. Very brave and thoughtful of you. But don't choose a side, ever.



To the atheist thread readers who adore Palestinians, they may not reciprocate much;



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TheGreatEscape
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6:40a, 11/13/23
They're not radical. They're just real Muslims.
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Zobel
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6:42a, 11/13/23
AG
The Likud party perpetuates the problem. I'm not going to choose a "side" in an ethnic conflict with a set of outcomes that are mutually exclusive and all bad. I agree that Hamas is a terrorist group and bad and should be destroyed. I don't agree that Israel has the moral high ground in the conflict as a whole. Nothing that happened this year changes that, it just throws gasoline on the already existing dumpster fire.
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SirDippinDots
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 8:28a, 11/13/23
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Everyone seems to conflate support for Palestinians, or opposition to minimal regard for sparing civilians, as implicit support for Hamas. Which is an unfortunate, and in my opinion an incorrect, way of looking at this.


Well they did elect Hamas, 70 % of Muslims in Gaza support suicide bombing but continue with your lies that somehow the Palestinians are different, and these Hamas terrorists just sprout out of the ground.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to TheGreatEscape • 8:34a, 11/13/23
AG
TheGreatEscape said:
They're not radical. They're just real Muslims.
You're mixing up your talking points. I thought the Palestinians were so bad that not even other Muslim countries want them? But now they're just "real Muslims" and the same as every other?

Would you then support violent action against any Muslim civilians anywhere since you seem perfectly fine with violence directed at Palestinian civilians? If they're all the same then what's the difference?
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to nortex97 • 8:49a, 11/13/23
AG
Quote:
This forum's 'regulars' lack all intellectual honesty, so again I am unsurprised.
I feel like this isn't that hard.

Hamas is bad, because they are terrorists that kill civilians and endanger their own people. I support Israel's right to exterminate them, though as a Christian I wish there was another way.

Israel is bad, because they violently displaced and oppressed an entire population of people completely unprovoked. The Palestinians living in the Holy Land were just basically in the way. I support the basic human rights of Palestinians to live free, happy lives, and I oppose Israel's treatment of people in Gaza and the West Bank.

I support a land of refuge for the Jewish people as they have been persecuted and attacked in nearly every country in the world. However, I don't support a categorically Jewish state, especially in the Holy Land, as there were already people living there that would have to be killed or removed. Also, the entire idea of an ethnic state in the modern world just seems overtly racist.

I also somewhat understand, at least historically, a lot of the antipathy towards Jews, especially in Eastern Europe, as they were often used as middle men by oppressive foreign rulers that didn't trust any of the natives. This was most common when the German nobles and Russian nobles were ruling over foreign Eastern European populations, but it happened in other places as well. It's weird to think that the end result of German nobles using a small percentage of the Jewish population to administer their rule over Eastern Europeans in the Middle Ages leads to a Jewish state oppressing Arabs in the Holy Land and the Arabs retaliating with terrorism, but here we are.



No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Zobel
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 8:55a, 11/13/23
AG
I mean, speaking of unintended consequences it's strange to think that Jewish insurrectionists fighting against the British made the blueprint for the terrorist groups fighting against Israel today.
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nortex97
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:11a, 11/13/23
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
This forum's 'regulars' lack all intellectual honesty, so again I am unsurprised.
I feel like this isn't that hard.

Hamas is bad, because they are terrorists that kill civilians and endanger their own people. I support Israel's right to exterminate them, though as a Christian I wish there was another way.

Israel is bad, because they violently displaced and oppressed an entire population of people completely unprovoked. The Palestinians living in the Holy Land were just basically in the way. I support the basic human rights of Palestinians to live free, happy lives, and I oppose Israel's treatment of people in Gaza and the West Bank.

I support a land of refuge for the Jewish people as they have been persecuted and attacked in nearly every country in the world. However, I don't support a categorically Jewish state, especially in the Holy Land, as there were already people living there that would have to be killed or removed. Also, the entire idea of an ethnic state in the modern world just seems overtly racist.

I also somewhat understand, at least historically, a lot of the antipathy towards Jews, especially in Eastern Europe, as they were often used as middle men by oppressive foreign rulers that didn't trust any of the natives. This was most common when the German nobles and Russian nobles were ruling over foreign Eastern European populations, but it happened in other places as well. It's weird to think that the end result of German nobles using a small percentage of the Jewish population to administer their rule over Eastern Europeans in the Middle Ages leads to a Jewish state oppressing Arabs in the Holy Land and the Arabs retaliating with terrorism, but here we are.





Except Israel didn't force them off any land and in fact is not a Jewish state, but you ignore their growing Arab Israeli population and increasing loyalty because that isn't helpful.

Teach kids not to hate.



I'm still wondering why Arab Gazans are so unwanted by moslem Arab countries. I guess no one here will admit it.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to nortex97 • 9:31a, 11/13/23
AG
Quote:
Except Israel didn't force them off any land and in fact is not a Jewish state, but you ignore their growing Arab Israeli population and increasing loyalty because that isn't helpful.
I'm literally the only person here who openly advocates for full integration of all Palestinians into the state of Israel. The peaceful and happy coexistence of Arab and Jewish Israeli citizens the is strongest possible argument for my case. I'm not ignoring them by any means.

The immigration of Jewish people to the Land most definitely forced Arabs off their land. There's even label for it, the Palestinian Nakba. No one on either side of this issue denies that this happened.

Also, Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. It's in their Declaration of Independence. They passed a law in 2018 reiterating this and making it even more clear than it was before. If you don't think Israel is an explicitly Jewish state, then you haven't been paying attention.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Read-the-full-Jewish-Nation-State-Law-562923


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Zobel
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In reply to nortex97 • 9:59a, 11/13/23
AG
"In fact not a Jewish state"?

The law on the books says "the right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people."

During the passage of that law a Likud member of their parliament said "We are enshrining this important bill into a law today to prevent even the slightest thought, let alone attempt, to transform Israel to a country of all its citizens....The most you [Arabs] can do is to live among us as a national minority that enjoys equal individual rights, but not equality as a national minority"

Netanyahu said in 2019 "Israel is not a state of all its citizens...According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and only it."

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notex
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:23a, 11/13/23
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
Except Israel didn't force them off any land and in fact is not a Jewish state, but you ignore their growing Arab Israeli population and increasing loyalty because that isn't helpful.
The immigration of Jewish people to the Land most definitely forced Arabs off their land. There's even label for it, the Palestinian Nakba. No one on either side of this issue denies that this happened.
You can surely find one person in history who you identify as a 'Palestinian' then that was kicked off his land by Jews after WW2, right? Not the ones that left anticipating the jews would all be slaughtered or who sold their homes.

If the Arabs took over a greater Israel it would be depopulated of jews in a week, via slaughter/deportation as you well know. Just as has been the case with all other arab countries, btw. You're not doing a real good job hiding your hatred.
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FJB24
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In reply to Zobel • 10:27a, 11/13/23
Quote:
You don't have to support Hamas or Israel or Russia or Ukraine to condemn terrorism and attacks against civilians.
Sounds like an academic who has no real firm commitments, just a passive observer of the world, IOW, a pacifist.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:29a, 11/13/23
History tells different stories based on who is telling the story, but I am curious as a hypothetical -- would you be in favor of handing your home over to Native Americans since they were displaced from this land, completely unprovoked?

That's kind of the thing. Even if your belief is that the Jewish people completely displaced the Palestinians however long ago, how is that different than damn near every group of people since the beginning of time? Land is claimed either diplomatically or via force. Israel has done both.

Again, not conceding that point that the land was just taken from them and who has the right to it as that's been a debate that has gone on for decades. It just seems wholly hypocritical to be an American sitting comfortably in one's McMansion saying "oh yeah they shouldn't have taken the land and should give it back".

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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 10:33a, 11/13/23
AG
Proposition Joe said:
History tells different stories based on who is telling the story, but I am curious as a hypothetical -- would you be in favor of handing your home over to Native Americans since they were displaced from this land, completely unprovoked?

That's kind of the thing. Even if your belief is that the Jewish people completely displaced the Palestinians however long ago, how is that different than damn near every group of people since the beginning of time? Land is claimed either diplomatically or via force. Israel has done both.

Again, not conceding that point that the land was just taken from them and who has the right to it as that's been a debate that has gone on for decades. It just seems wholly hypocritical to be an American sitting comfortably in one's McMansion saying "oh yeah they shouldn't have taken the land and should give it back".

Way to beat up that strawman you created. Find one instance of me saying that Israelis should give back land. All I'm advocating for is basic human rights for Palestinians. The right to travel, work, vote, and live their lives without interference. That can happen tomorrow without anyone giving up any land or wealth at all. Both the Two State and One State solutions accomplish this

Also, you're first question is a bit ironic. I'm definitely handing over my land to two Native Americans when I die. I just happen to be their father, lol
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nortex97
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:47a, 11/13/23
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Proposition Joe said:
History tells different stories based on who is telling the story, but I am curious as a hypothetical -- would you be in favor of handing your home over to Native Americans since they were displaced from this land, completely unprovoked?

That's kind of the thing. Even if your belief is that the Jewish people completely displaced the Palestinians however long ago, how is that different than damn near every group of people since the beginning of time? Land is claimed either diplomatically or via force. Israel has done both.

Again, not conceding that point that the land was just taken from them and who has the right to it as that's been a debate that has gone on for decades. It just seems wholly hypocritical to be an American sitting comfortably in one's McMansion saying "oh yeah they shouldn't have taken the land and should give it back".

Way to beat up that strawman you created. Find one instance of me saying that Israelis should give back land. All I'm advocating for is basic human rights for Palestinians. The right to travel, work, vote, and live their lives without interference. That can happen tomorrow without anyone giving up any land or wealth at all. Both the Two State and One State solutions accomplish this

Also, you're first question is a bit ironic. I'm definitely handing over my land to two Native Americans when I die. I just happen to be their father, lol
If the people you identify as "Palestinian" were granted freedom to travel at midnight, there would be over a million dead jews by sunrise, as you know. "Two state" is a dead talking point because one side has rejected it a half dozen or more times when offered.
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Zobel
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In reply to FJB24 • 11:11a, 11/13/23
AG
yeah? what are you doing with your firm commitments?

And I didn't say I was neutral in all of those examples. I said it is possible to be neutral, but still agree that terrorism and targeting of civilians is unacceptable. I suspect you don't have a stance on most global geopolitical conflicts other than agreeing that terrorism and targeting of civilians is bad and should be condemned.
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FJB24
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In reply to Zobel • 11:18a, 11/13/23
Zobel said:
yeah? what are you doing with your firm commitments?

And I didn't say I was neutral in all of those examples. I said it is possible to be neutral…
So you are a pacifist? You are trying to hide behind a lot of words and animosity to hide that, it sounds like. Just be honest about it, is all I am asking.
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Zobel
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In reply to notex • 11:30a, 11/13/23
AG

Quote:
Not the ones that left anticipating the jews would all be slaughtered or who sold their homes.
unfortunately you've been lied to through intentional propaganda.

Here's an article about those ongoing propaganda efforts, as well as some information that has been uncovered in the meantime.
https://merip.org/2019/09/israels-vanishing-files-archival-deception-and-paper-trails/

here is a primary source document published internally by the IDF in 1948, made public only a few years ago. it is referenced in the article above. you really should read it.

https://www.akevot.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/1948ISReport-Eng.pdf

in 2019 Haaretz published an article describing some of the discoveries - you can read it for free if you sign up with an email address.
link
link

If not, here are some excerpts:
Quote:
The newly revealed documents describe the ways Israel prevented Arabs from returning to villages they had left in 1948, even after the restrictions on them had been lifted. The main method: dense planting of trees within and surrounding these towns.

Among other things, the document states that "the lands belonging to the above-mentioned villages were given to the custodian for absentee properties" and that "most were leased for work (cultivation of field crops and olive groves) by Jewish households." Some of the properties, it adds, were subleased.

In the meeting in Toledano's office, it was explained that these lands had been declared closed military zones, and that once the structures on them had been razed, and the land had been parceled out, forested and subject to proper supervision their definition as closed military zones could be lifted.
and

Quote:
On April 3, 1966, another discussion was held on the same subject, this time at the office of the defense minister, Levi Eshkol, who was also the serving prime minister; the minutes of this meeting were classified as top secret. Its participants included: Toledano; Isser Harel, in his capacity as special adviser to the prime minister; the military advocate general Meir Shamgar, who would later become president of the Supreme Court; and representatives of the Shin Bet security service and Israel Police.

Regarding northern Israel, it was agreed that "all the areas declared at the time to be closed [military] zones... other than Sha'ab [east of Acre] would be opened after the usual conditions were fulfilled razing of the buildings in the abandoned villages, forestation, establishment of nature reserves, fencing and guarding."
emphasis mine.

and


Quote:
In March 1963, Shamgar, then military advocate general, wrote a pamphlet about the legal basis of the military administration; only 30 copies were printed. (He signed it using his previous, un-Hebraized name, Sternberg.) Its purpose was to explain why Israel was imposing its military might over hundreds of thousands of citizens.

Among other things, Shamgar wrote in the pamphlet that Regulation 125, allowing certain areas to be closed off, is intended "to prevent the entry and settlement of minorities in border areas," and that "border areas populated by minorities serve as a natural, convenient point of departure for hostile elements beyond the border."

here's another excerpt from a different article.
[url=https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-israel-systematically-hides-evidence-of-1948-expulsion-of-arabs/0000017f-f303-d487-abff-f3ff69de0000]link 3[/url]
interview between Baz LevTov and Maj Gen Elad Peled which was censored by the Israeli Director of Security of the Defense Establishment ("Malmab")

Quote:
Lev Tov: "We're talking about a population women and children?"

Peled: "All, all. Yes."

Lev Tov: "Don't you distinguish between them?"

Peled: "The problem is very simple. The war is between two populations. They come out of their home."

Lev Tov: "If the home exists, they have somewhere to return to?"

Peled: "It's not armies yet, it's gangs. We're also actually gangs. We come out of the house and return to the house. They come out of the house and return to the house. It's either their house or our house."

Lev Tov: "Qualms belong to the more recent generation?"

Peled: "Yes, today. When I sit in an armchair here and think about what happened, all kinds of thoughts come to mind."

Lev Tov: "Wasn't that the case then?"

Peled: "Look, let me tell you something even less nice and cruel, about the big raid in Sasa [Palestinian village in Upper Galilee]. The goal was actually to deter them, to tell them, 'Dear friends, the Palmach [the Haganah "shock troops"] can reach every place, you are not immune.' That was the heart of the Arab settlement. But what did we do? My platoon blew up 20 homes with everything that was there."

Lev Tov: "While people were sleeping there?"

Peled: "I suppose so. What happened there, we came, we entered the village, planted a bomb next to every house, and afterward Homesh blew on a trumpet, because we didn't have radios, and that was the signal [for our forces] to leave. We're running in reverse, the sappers stay, they pull, it's all primitive. They light the fuse or pull the detonator and all those houses are gone."
and another with Maj Gen Avraham Tamir

Quote:
Tamir: "I was under Chera [Maj. Gen. Tzvi Tzur, later IDF chief of staff], and I had excellent working relations with him. He gave me freedom of action don't ask and I happened to be in charge of staff and operations work during two developments deriving from [Prime Minister David] Ben-Gurion's policy. One development was when reports arrived about marches of refugees from Jordan toward the abandoned villages [in Israel]. And then Ben-Gurion lays down as policy that we have to demolish [the villages] so they won't have anywhere to return to. That is, all the Arab villages, most of which were in [the area covered by] Central Command, most of them."

Lev Tov: "The ones that were still standing?"

Tamir: "The ones that weren't yet inhabited by Israelis. There were places where we had already settled Israelis, like Zakariyya and others. But most of them were still abandoned villages."

Lev Tov: "That were standing?"

Tamir: "Standing. It was necessary for there to be no place for them to return to, so I mobilized all the engineering battalions of Central Command, and within 48 hours I knocked all those villages to the ground. Period. There's no place to return to."

Lev Tov: "Without hesitation, I imagine."

Tamir: "Without hesitation. That was the policy. I mobilized, I carried it out and I did it."
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Zobel
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In reply to FJB24 • 11:31a, 11/13/23
AG
i'm not a pacifist, and what's more i took the oath of office to serve this country as a commissioned officer. what have you done, what are you doing with these firm commitments of yours?

i'm not hiding behind any words, and i have no animosity. i'll be glad to answer any questions you like. feel free to ask them.

but you should answer mine. for example, what side do you support in the current war between Armenia and Azerbaijan? if you don't have a side, does that make you a pacifist or mean you have animosity toward one side or the other?

at any rate, ad homs are a poor substitute for actual dialogue. even if i were the most pacifist of all pacifists, that wouldn't change a thing about what is right or wrong about this situation.
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bigtruckguy3500
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 11:36a, 11/13/23
SirDippinDots said:
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Everyone seems to conflate support for Palestinians, or opposition to minimal regard for sparing civilians, as implicit support for Hamas. Which is an unfortunate, and in my opinion an incorrect, way of looking at this.


Well they did elect Hamas, 70 % of Muslims in Gaza support suicide bombing but continue with your lies that somehow the Palestinians are different, and these Hamas terrorists just sprout out of the ground.
I mean, Hamas was elected by about 40% of the vote. Given that nearly half of Palestinians today are under 18, a majority of Palestinians alive today never voted for Hamas. And there have been no additional elections since 2006. When there have been attempts at protests against Hamas, they're quickly stomped down.

The most recent data also suggests that the majority do not support Hamas today. I also specifically stated that support for Palestinians doesn't equal support for Hamas. Likewise, support for Israel doesn't mean support for Netanyahu. Similarly, being against the death of so many civilians, and bombing with minimal regard to civilian life doesn't mean I don't support the right of Israel to defend itself.

Soooo... not sure why you're calling me a liar. Unless you're intentionally trying to twist my words, or you just lack the ability to understand basic depth in a conversation.

Sincere question though, what's the original source on that 70% number. Would like to read the context and methods of the survey. Because if framed correctly, I guarantee you a majority of the US military would also justify suicidal means to defeat an enemy.
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bigtruckguy3500
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11:41a, 11/13/23
Surprisingly rational take from a comedian. Except I think he underestimates the Rock's ability to make peace.

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SirDippinDots
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 12:05p, 11/13/23
bigtruckguy3500 said:
SirDippinDots said:
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Everyone seems to conflate support for Palestinians, or opposition to minimal regard for sparing civilians, as implicit support for Hamas. Which is an unfortunate, and in my opinion an incorrect, way of looking at this.


Well they did elect Hamas, 70 % of Muslims in Gaza support suicide bombing but continue with your lies that somehow the Palestinians are different, and these Hamas terrorists just sprout out of the ground.
I mean, Hamas was elected by about 40% of the vote. Given that nearly half of Palestinians today are under 18, a majority of Palestinians alive today never voted for Hamas. And there have been no additional elections since 2006. When there have been attempts at protests against Hamas, they're quickly stomped down.

The most recent data also suggests that the majority do not support Hamas today. I also specifically stated that support for Palestinians doesn't equal support for Hamas. Likewise, support for Israel doesn't mean support for Netanyahu. Similarly, being against the death of so many civilians, and bombing with minimal regard to civilian life doesn't mean I don't support the right of Israel to defend itself.

Soooo... not sure why you're calling me a liar. Unless you're intentionally trying to twist my words, or you just lack the ability to understand basic depth in a conversation.

Sincere question though, what's the original source on that 70% number. Would like to read the context and methods of the survey. Because if framed correctly, I guarantee you a majority of the US military would also justify suicidal means to defeat an enemy.


Fine but there are many that push the narrative that the Palestinians are some innocent group that had no control of this. Like they are some innocent person caught in the crossfire.

Hamas terrorists are Palestinians for the vast majority with broad support from the Palestinians. The hamas terrorists come from somewhere.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to nortex97 • 12:17p, 11/13/23
AG
nortex97 said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
Proposition Joe said:
History tells different stories based on who is telling the story, but I am curious as a hypothetical -- would you be in favor of handing your home over to Native Americans since they were displaced from this land, completely unprovoked?

That's kind of the thing. Even if your belief is that the Jewish people completely displaced the Palestinians however long ago, how is that different than damn near every group of people since the beginning of time? Land is claimed either diplomatically or via force. Israel has done both.

Again, not conceding that point that the land was just taken from them and who has the right to it as that's been a debate that has gone on for decades. It just seems wholly hypocritical to be an American sitting comfortably in one's McMansion saying "oh yeah they shouldn't have taken the land and should give it back".

Way to beat up that strawman you created. Find one instance of me saying that Israelis should give back land. All I'm advocating for is basic human rights for Palestinians. The right to travel, work, vote, and live their lives without interference. That can happen tomorrow without anyone giving up any land or wealth at all. Both the Two State and One State solutions accomplish this

Also, you're first question is a bit ironic. I'm definitely handing over my land to two Native Americans when I die. I just happen to be their father, lol
If the people you identify as "Palestinian" were granted freedom to travel at midnight, there would be over a million dead jews by sunrise, as you know. "Two state" is a dead talking point because one side has rejected it a half dozen or more times when offered.
Yeah, I don't know that at all, and you have no real basis for saying that
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Macarthur
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12:20p, 11/13/23
I find it intersting how some seem to really forget that prior to the 1910's, that area had folks from meany religions living in relative harmony for hundreds of years.
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nortex97
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In reply to Macarthur • 12:38p, 11/13/23
AG
Macarthur said:
I find it intersting how some seem to really forget that prior to the 1910's, that area had folks from meany religions living in relative harmony for hundreds of years.
They still do, in areas where Israeli's control security.

Weirdly, that's not the case for the rest of the Middle East which is predominantly muslim. At least, for jews.

I find it interesting how few synagogues are left in arab countries, and the precipitous decline of churches as well, in places like Iraq over the past 30 years.
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