Peaceful Palestinians double down, everything was justified

24,945 Views | 358 Replies | Last: 11 mo ago by Terminus Est
SirDippinDots
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65 year old Jew attacked and killed in California.

More mostly peaceful Palestinians.

RAB91
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History has taught us that the Muslim culture is not compatible with western cultures based on Judeo-Christian values. I'm afraid that both Europe and the U.S. have forgotten this lesson from history.
nortex97
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AG
craigernaught said:

Huh?

How is the government that is "getting them killed" not the one actively dropping bombs on their heads?

There's plenty of responsibility for their deaths and suffering to go around. Trying to shield the Israelis from responsibility is absolutely bizarre.
Israel is doing a terrible job of getting them killed;



I don't believe you are paying any attention to how the Gaza/Hamas residence choose to place their rocket launchers (still going) in mosques/Cub Scout meeting rooms and mosques.





Notice all the 'innocent civilians' not in uniform here;



Israel is a country of refugees, from muslim hate and persecution.



These are the people getting Gazans killed by the minute:



Willful ignorance and hate, fueled by a book that calls jews apes and pigs, is what motivates and then attempts to excuse this kind of criminal terrorist both there, and here;

SirDippinDots
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None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
BluHorseShu
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SirDippinDots said:

None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
Seems this thread has devolved from any inkling of religion/philosophy to politics. Sad how everything seems to devolve into a black or white political argument these days.
nortex97
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BluHorseShu said:

SirDippinDots said:

None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
Seems this thread has devolved from any inkling of religion/philosophy to politics. Sad how everything seems to devolve into a black or white political argument these days.
It seems teaching children to hate is a philosophical problem.



I believe ethical responsibility and conduct should be discussed openly.



But I realize that is considered hateful, to some, especially those who adhere to or believe the propaganda from a certain religion.
ramblin_ag02
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Hopefully we all agree that the Palestinians in Gaza are largely brainwashed by Hamas to be violent and hateful, and that is an awful fact. I think we all also appreciate the no win situation in which Israel finds itself. The difference is that some people are almost gleefully cheering the Roman solution of making a desert and calling it peace. Most others are calling for a more measured approach as well as recognizing that the issue is tragic and complicated for both sides.

Personally, I think Israel is showing more restraint than they are credited for, and I think most Palestinians are not genocidal monsters. It's just hard to have a good faith conversation when you have Hamas on one side and people willing to ethnically cleanse Gaza on the other
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BluHorseShu
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nortex97 said:

BluHorseShu said:

SirDippinDots said:

None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
Seems this thread has devolved from any inkling of religion/philosophy to politics. Sad how everything seems to devolve into a black or white political argument these days.
It seems teaching children to hate is a philosophical problem.



I believe ethical responsibility and conduct should be discussed openly.



But I realize that is considered hateful, to some, especially those who adhere to or believe the propaganda from a certain religion.
Well, as a Christian and supporter of Israel, I have to be careful to teach my kids that there is propaganda on all sides and that 'hating' anyone is against our faith. And that our politics should not dictate how we treat people, but rather Christ's teachings should. Defining an entire group by the extremism of a few is also foolish.
But here we are, pretending to discuss philosophy
SirDippinDots
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BluHorseShu said:

nortex97 said:

BluHorseShu said:

SirDippinDots said:

None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
Seems this thread has devolved from any inkling of religion/philosophy to politics. Sad how everything seems to devolve into a black or white political argument these days.
It seems teaching children to hate is a philosophical problem.



I believe ethical responsibility and conduct should be discussed openly.



But I realize that is considered hateful, to some, especially those who adhere to or believe the propaganda from a certain religion.
Well, as a Christian and supporter of Israel, I have to be careful to teach my kids that there is propaganda on all sides and that 'hating' anyone is against our faith. And that our politics should not dictate how we treat people, but rather Christ's teachings should. Defining an entire group by the extremism of a few is also foolish.
But here we are, pretending to discuss philosophy


So 70% of Muslims in Gaza supporting suicide bombing is a few????? That is 7 out of 10 in case you don't understand that constitutes a majority.

A few please explain.
BluHorseShu
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SirDippinDots said:

BluHorseShu said:

nortex97 said:

BluHorseShu said:

SirDippinDots said:

None of that matters to the antisemites like gazanaught on this board. They ignore an unprovoked attack, raping of women, parading and desecrating their bodies, putting children in ovens, pulling out peoples eyes and just ordinary shooting them because they must be time efficient sometimes.

Israel has one bomb in a wrong area, or civilians don't leave after thousands of leaflets dropped its Israel's fault.

Never even mind about the hostages nor pulling down of their posters around the world. The Muslims and Palestinians are mostly peaceful.

Many of these people are at best nothing more than useful idiots in Marxist terminology or infidels according to Islam and can be treated as such.
Seems this thread has devolved from any inkling of religion/philosophy to politics. Sad how everything seems to devolve into a black or white political argument these days.
It seems teaching children to hate is a philosophical problem.



I believe ethical responsibility and conduct should be discussed openly.



But I realize that is considered hateful, to some, especially those who adhere to or believe the propaganda from a certain religion.
Well, as a Christian and supporter of Israel, I have to be careful to teach my kids that there is propaganda on all sides and that 'hating' anyone is against our faith. And that our politics should not dictate how we treat people, but rather Christ's teachings should. Defining an entire group by the extremism of a few is also foolish.
But here we are, pretending to discuss philosophy


So 70% of Muslims in Gaza supporting suicide bombing is a few????? That is 7 out of 10 in case you don't understand that constitutes a majority.

A few please explain.
What in the world are you talking about? I was speaking generally about opposing groups. But I get what your saying. We should hate them all. Noted.
SirDippinDots
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No we should put Israel's dilemma in context. It is just not a few bad apples but it is ingrained throughout Palestinian society, schools and institutions.
barbacoa taco
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The constant dehumanization of Palestinians, especially by professed Christians, is a really disgusting thing to see. And no, seeing Palestinians as human does not mean I sympathize with Hamas.
Macarthur
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The death toll is estimated now to be over 10,000 with more than 4000 being children.
nortex97
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Macarthur said:

The death toll is estimated now to be over 10,000 with more than 4000 being children.
And yet…Hamas and the leadership of the arab world have no regrets they have expressed, only an intent to do it over and over again.



Pretty obvious what despicable side is responsible for those deaths, and wishes to inflict more.
SirDippinDots
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Macarthur said:

The death toll is estimated now to be over 10,000 with more than 4000 being children.


Estimated by Hamas.
Macarthur
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The UN.
Macarthur
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nortex97 said:

Macarthur said:

The death toll is estimated now to be over 10,000 with more than 4000 being children.
And yet…Hamas and the leadership of the arab world have no regrets they have expressed, only an intent to do it over and over again.



Pretty obvious what despicable side is responsible for those deaths, and wishes to inflict more.


And I want Hamas completely defeated, too.
nortex97
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Macarthur said:

The UN.
The very concerned human rights commission chaired by…Iran? The UN has zero moral credibility in this matter. The UNRWA itself is and was/has been a complicit partner in terror with Hamas and the PA.

Quote:

Agroup of at least 20 staffers and teachers affiliated with the U.N. Rights and Work Agency (UNRWA), a Palestinian aid organization, celebrated the Hamas slaughter of Israeli civilians following its surprise invasion, a new report from UN Watch found.

Shortly after thousands of Hamas terrorists flooded across the Israeli-Gaza border on October 7, massacring, raping, and torturing civilians, UNRWA staffers and affiliated teachers took to social media to celebrate the atrocities as a justified response to Israeli aggression, UN Watch revealed in a report released Monday entitled, "UNRWA: Hate Starts Here."

"Allah is Great, Allah is Great, reality surpasses our wildest dreams," wrote Osama Ahmed, a UNRWA teacher in Gaza, in a characteristic Facebook post.

The report documents numerous senior-ranking members of the organization gloating about the October 7 atrocities, including Rawia Helles, the director of a training center in Khan Younis, a town in the southern Gaza Strip. Helles applauded the depraved acts of Palestinian terrorists, calling one operative a "hero" and "prince" for his actions. She was also featured in a UNRWA appeal on YouTube in October raising awareness about the organization's work.
lobopride
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The UN has a little more credibility than ISIS, but not much.
barbacoa taco
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SirDippinDots said:

Macarthur said:

The death toll is estimated now to be over 10,000 with more than 4000 being children.


Estimated by Hamas.
not sure what's so unbelievable about those numbers. Israel has been bombing the **** out of Gaza, which is one of the densest places on earth and contains a huge number of children.
BluHorseShu
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SirDippinDots said:

No we should put Israel's dilemma in context. It is just not a few bad apples but it is ingrained throughout Palestinian society, schools and institutions.
I'm not detracting from Israel's efforts whatsoever. I support their right to not only defend themselves but to occupy Gaza until Hamas is eradicated. NorTex was going off on some tangent about his own victimhood. My entire point was the veering of the discussion to politics and not philosophy/religion. But perhaps this is a fools errand these days as the lines have become too blurred.
nortex97
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BluHorseShu said:

SirDippinDots said:

No we should put Israel's dilemma in context. It is just not a few bad apples but it is ingrained throughout Palestinian society, schools and institutions.
I'm not detracting from Israel's efforts whatsoever. I support their right to not only defend themselves but to occupy Gaza until Hamas is eradicated. NorTex was going off on some tangent about his own victimhood. My entire point was the veering of the discussion to politics and not philosophy/religion. But perhaps this is a fools errand these days as the lines have become too blurred.
LOL, sure bud. What a farcical person you must be.
AgLiving06
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craigernaught said:

Arab Barometer interviewed and polled people in Gaza from September 28th to October 8th (interviews finished October 6th). The results are a bit surprising. I'll outline some of them here.

*How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government?

29% A great deal or quite a lot
23% not a lot of trust
44% No trust at all

*72% said there was a large or medium amount of corruption in the government.

*If there was a vote today that featured Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, and Marwan Barghouti, an imprisoned member of the central committee of Fatah (google him, he's a terrorist):

24% Haniyeh
12% Abbas
32% Barghouti
30% won't participate

*67% want to see Abbas resign

*52% believe the Palestinian Authority is a burden on Palestinians

*78% said food availability was a moderate or severe problem.

*75% said they had run out of food and lacked money to buy it over the past month, up from 51% in 2021.

*The cause of food insecurity:

31% blamed government mismanagement
26% inflation
16% blamed external sanctions (like the Israeli blockade)

*How responsive is the Hamas-led government to what the people want:

26% very or largely
72% not very or not responsive at all

*48% want a democracy

*Which party do you feel closest to?

27% Hamas
30% Fatah
7% Islamic Jihad (I can't tell exactly from their chart)
13% Other (same)
14% None (same)

*54% favored a 2 state solution outlined in Oslo Accords.

*10% and Israeli-Palestinian Confederation

*73% favored a peaceful settlement with Israel

*20% favored a military solution

*71% opposed Russia's invasion of Ukraine

*37% favor closer economic ties with the US, higher than Russia or Iran (both 32%)

*15% believe Biden has been good or very good for the Arab world


The Palestinian Authority, Abbas, and Fatah are all deeply disliked in Gaza, and for good reason. But people have always disliked Hamas and the support that they have is declining. Unfortunately, there aren't many good options for Palestinian leadership.

Foreign Affairs notes that Israeli crackdowns in Gaza often lead to increased support for Hamas and when those crackdowns ease, support for Hamas declines.

It's my belief, that Hamas carries out the attacks in large part because their rule of the Gaza was failing and their support was rapidly declining. They feared the normalizing ties between Israel and the Gulf States would isolate them further. And they received support and pressure from Iran to carry out an attack as part of Iran's rivalry (and more specifically the Revolutionary Guard) with the Gulf States and the West. Hamas needed a heavy handed Israeli response. The far right in Israel has long wanted increased hostility in Gaza and with Hamas. And so their interests here aligned. It's my understanding that support for Hamas is higher now than before, that relations between Arab and Gulf States and Israel is at a long time low, the US is increasingly isolated from Arab States (I can attest to this personally at home), and Iran is more influential now than ever. The people will suffer and die, but Hamas doesn't care. They've never cared. Hamas wants war. Gazans didn't. But war is here anyway. So now who do they turn to?

Poll numbers and context below:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas?fbclid=IwAR0iXLb4ZSXfmmxQDrxyNH3snjhhLU9cbT9fuHcfAFnwEv2Q8uHphkBQ2zk

Needs account but not a paid subscription. Read it. It's excellent.



Almost like the Palestinians are being oppressed or held captive by terrorists...

But I've got it on good authority Hamas cannot be the oppressors...
Proposition Joe
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The whole "this is not what the people in Gaza support" argument kind of falls apart when you view it from the lens of them being "captive".

If this is not what the people in the country want or support, and they are being held captive in these open-air prisons, then why do people want Israel to stand by and do nothing?

Shouldn't an attempt be made to liberate these people from their captors and their prison?

Is it better for zero innocent casualties if it means people live in slavery/captive/prison for generations?

Either the people of Gaza support Hamas (or your violent fanatic-of-the-month) and are part of the problem, or the people of Gaza don't support Hamas (or your violent fanatic-of-the-month) and need to be be freed from their reign.

Choosing to do nothing, or taking the same measured approach that has achieved nothing over the last century, is not the right thing to do. It's the equivalent of "thoughts and prayers" with no willingness to act.

Now, we can debate the extent of these actions (and there are very few that are actually calling for the annihilation of an entire group of innocent people, that's just a convenient straw man), but to say no significant action should be taken is just well-wishing that things will get better "just because".

If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed.

If the people in Gaza are being held captive by this regime, they should be freed.

Either way is going to require force.
SirDippinDots
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Proposition Joe said:

The whole "this is not what the people in Gaza support" argument kind of falls apart when you view it from the lens of them being "captive".

If this is not what the people in the country want or support, and they are being held captive in these open-air prisons, then why do people want Israel to stand by and do nothing?

Shouldn't an attempt be made to liberate these people from their captors and their prison?

Is it better for zero innocent casualties if it means people live in slavery/captive/prison for generations?

Either the people of Gaza support Hamas (or your violent fanatic-of-the-month) and are part of the problem, or the people of Gaza don't support Hamas (or your violent fanatic-of-the-month) and need to be be freed from their reign.

Choosing to do nothing, or taking the same measured approach that has achieved nothing over the last century, is not the right thing to do. It's the equivalent of "thoughts and prayers" with no willingness to act.

Now, we can debate the extent of these actions (and there are very few that are actually calling for the annihilation of an entire group of innocent people, that's just a convenient straw man), but to say no significant action should be taken is just well-wishing that things will get better "just because".

If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed.

If the people in Gaza are being held captive by this regime, they should be freed.

Either way is going to require force.


I don't think those people really believe that. It is just a way to blame and condemn Israel. Or they live in a total fantasy world.

It's easier to justify, Israel needs to stop hurting innocent Palestinians, stop collectively punishing the Palestinian people than it is to say

Israel should just lay down and die.

We don't live in a world where only bad people are hurt in wars, conflicts and crime. You might as well take away guns from all the police since some innocent person might be hit in the crossfire.

You are correct their position makes no sense logically.
Zobel
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AG
no one is saying no significant action should be taken, another convenient straw man.

how the hell can you say that the annihilation of a group of people is a straw man and then follow up with "If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed" in the next breath?


the entire premise of your post absurdly ignores the fact that the "prison" is of Israel's making.

SirDippinDots
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Zobel said:

no one is saying no significant action should be taken, another convenient straw man.

how the hell can you say that the annihilation of a group of people is a straw man and then follow up with "If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed" in the next breath?


the entire premise of your post absurdly ignores the fact that the "prison" is of Israel's making.




That's right Israel should just let those people wander around killing them, bring back the suicide bombers.

Your real world position is Israel should lay down and die.

Hamas has said they will continue to attack until every Jew is dead and you want them to be able to roam around Israel as they wish.

Your position is either misguided or evil.
Zobel
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AG
speaking of straw men.
Proposition Joe
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Zobel said:

no one is saying no significant action should be taken, another convenient straw man.

how the hell can you say that the annihilation of a group of people is a straw man and then follow up with "If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed" in the next breath?


the entire premise of your post absurdly ignores the fact that the "prison" is of Israel's making.

Maybe I should have specified -- if the "group of people" are evil terrorists, then yes I am in support of them being destroyed.

If however the group of people are innocents being held captive by this evil regime, then they should be liberated.

Standing by and doing nothing is not a solution. Half-measures are not a solution -- the last few decades have proven that.

And there are 1.7 million Muslims living in the State of Israel, mostly in peace. Additionally Gaza is bordered by Egypt, who also has closed it's borders to them. Additionally many of the country that previously accepted in Palestinian refugees no longer do so (due in large to refusal to assimilate as well as in many cases attempt to overthrow the government).

If you are blaming Israel for the creation of this "prison", then you haven't been paying attention to the last 50 years of world history.

Now, that's not to say they are blameless in this entire conflict -- whether going back to it's origins or pulling certain strings politically to keep certain things the way they want it (like the US and every other government in the world does behind the scenes).

But anyone still blaming Israel for the plight of the people in Gaza either are wholly uninformed of the history or consciously choosing to ignore it.
Zobel
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AG
don't crawfish. you said "If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed."



Quote:

If you are blaming Israel for the creation of this "prison", then you haven't been paying attention to the last 50 years of world history.
oh? please, explain it to the class. how did the people who currently live in the Gaza strip wind up there, without the ability to leave?
SirDippinDots
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Zobel said:

don't crawfish. you said "If the people in Gaza support this regime, they should be destroyed."



Quote:

If you are blaming Israel for the creation of this "prison", then you haven't been paying attention to the last 50 years of world history.
oh? please, explain it to the class. how did the people who currently live in the Gaza strip wind up there, without the ability to leave?


Because Egypt won't open the Egyptian border and let them in.

If these people were so wonderful the world would be giving them incentives to relocate to their countries.
Zobel
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AG
doesn't explain why they are there in the first place. try again.
lobopride
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Zobel said:

doesn't explain why they are there in the first place. try again.
Because they fought in a war and lost.
Zobel
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AG
sorry, that's incorrect.

here's an IDF intelligence report from 1948 that details the Arab migration and causes. primary source.

https://www.akevot.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/1948ISReport-Eng.pdf
BonfireNerd04
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Quote:

oh? please, explain it to the class. how did the people who currently live in the Gaza strip wind up there, without the ability to leave?
Repeated refusals of peace offers and statehood proposals by Palestinian leaders who insist on nothing less than a Judenrein land "from the river to the sea". And attacks on Israeli civilians necessitating tight border controls between Gaza and Israel.
 
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