Israel has killed 36 journalists so far. It is an unprecendented rate of targeting and killing journalists.

One journalist for Al Jazeera who has been critical of Israel's targeting of civilians had his entire family killed by a targeted airstrike.

https://time.com/6330906/israel-hamas-war-journalist-death/

I have never seen a country throw away the goodwill of the world as quickly and recklessly as Israel has.

Aside from war crimes being extremely immoral, the constant bombing of hospitals, refugee camps etc just isn't even a good strategy.

They are completely isolating themselves on the international stage and even the State Department is trying to step in to stop what they are doing.

Pray for peace.

Serotonin said:

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Israel has killed 36 journalists so far. It is an unprecendented rate of targeting and killing journalists.

One journalist for Al Jazeera who has been critical of Israel's targeting of civilians had his entire family killed by a targeted airstrike.

https://time.com/6330906/israel-hamas-war-journalist-death/

I have never seen a country throw away the goodwill of the world as quickly and recklessly as Israel has.

Aside from war crimes being extremely immoral, the constant bombing of hospitals, refugee camps etc just isn't even a good strategy.

They are completely isolating themselves on the international stage and even the State Department is trying to step in to stop what they are doing.

Pray for peace.

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War zones are dangerous. Again it's Israel's fault Hamas uses civilians to hide. And much of the civilians are not innocent.

Al jazeera is full of terrorists.

This board is so full of antisemitism. Just a sign of the times.

Soon the Ezekiel war.

Criticism of Israelis policies is not antisemitism. That is the laziest of lazy takes.

Macarthur said:

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Criticism of Israelis policies is not antisemitism. That is the laziest of lazy takes.

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Here is another peaceful group of Palestinian civilians kidnapping an Israeli woman.

Geez, I hope these peaceful Palestinian civilians are not hit by an air strike.

Macarthur said:

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As for the video, what exactly is your position? Do you think it's fake?

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Is it fake? Probably not. We've caught Hamas faking deaths and they aren't particularly good at it. Is it from the right time or place, we don't necessarily know as Reuters pointed out.

The question then if it is real is who caused it. Given we know Hamas has zero concern for killing fleeing Gaza citizens, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they did it simply to blame Israel.

It's kind of odd bc no major news seemingly picked this story up though.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Also, I recently heard that based off changes in the population over time, only 7% of people in Gaza alive today actually voted for Hamas in 2007.

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Is there any evidence that Hamas wouldn't win today if they had an election?

BonfireNerd04 said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Also, I recently heard that based off changes in the population over time, only 7% of people in Gaza alive today actually voted for Hamas in 2007.

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Is there any evidence that Hamas wouldn't win today if they had an election?

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I saw an Israeli source claiming Hamas was supported by 60% of the Palestinians.

Pure evil always thinks it's the victim.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Also, I recently heard that based off changes in the population over time, only 7% of people in Gaza alive today actually voted for Hamas in 2007.

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Is there any evidence that Hamas wouldn't win today if they had an election?

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Is there any evidence they would win?

Here's some sources that indicate a minority would vote for them. Specifically one of the sources indicate roughly 27% would choose Hamas over the current alternatives. Of course who knows what constitutes a free election there. Perhaps that would be enough for them to win again. They won with about 40% of the vote last time. So who knows.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amaney-jamal.html

Aggrad08 said:

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This is the third thread you have made on the subject. The last two didn't really go well for your arguments. Why another?

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Says the guy who's invested a dozen years and nearly 15,000 posts arguing against a God he doesn't believe exists. That seems like a vain existence to me, yet here we are.

Macarthur said:

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Im not sure I've even opened that thread so I have no opinion on that. Im a non believer so I technically don't think god answers any prayers.

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You non-believers sure do a bang up job working overtime to goaltend for Islam. It's both perplexing and fascinating watching you people.

Arab Barometer interviewed and polled people in Gaza from September 28th to October 8th (interviews finished October 6th). The results are a bit surprising. I'll outline some of them here.

*How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government?

29% A great deal or quite a lot
23% not a lot of trust
44% No trust at all

*72% said there was a large or medium amount of corruption in the government.

*If there was a vote today that featured Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, and Marwan Barghouti, an imprisoned member of the central committee of Fatah (google him, he's a terrorist):

24% Haniyeh
12% Abbas
32% Barghouti
30% won't participate

*67% want to see Abbas resign

*52% believe the Palestinian Authority is a burden on Palestinians

*78% said food availability was a moderate or severe problem.

*75% said they had run out of food and lacked money to buy it over the past month, up from 51% in 2021.

*The cause of food insecurity:

31% blamed government mismanagement
26% inflation
16% blamed external sanctions (like the Israeli blockade)

*How responsive is the Hamas-led government to what the people want:

26% very or largely
72% not very or not responsive at all

*48% want a democracy

*Which party do you feel closest to?

27% Hamas
30% Fatah
7% Islamic Jihad (I can't tell exactly from their chart)
13% Other (same)
14% None (same)

*54% favored a 2 state solution outlined in Oslo Accords.

*10% and Israeli-Palestinian Confederation

*73% favored a peaceful settlement with Israel

*20% favored a military solution

*71% opposed Russia's invasion of Ukraine

*37% favor closer economic ties with the US, higher than Russia or Iran (both 32%)

*15% believe Biden has been good or very good for the Arab world


The Palestinian Authority, Abbas, and Fatah are all deeply disliked in Gaza, and for good reason. But people have always disliked Hamas and the support that they have is declining. Unfortunately, there aren't many good options for Palestinian leadership.

Foreign Affairs notes that Israeli crackdowns in Gaza often lead to increased support for Hamas and when those crackdowns ease, support for Hamas declines.

It's my belief, that Hamas carries out the attacks in large part because their rule of the Gaza was failing and their support was rapidly declining. They feared the normalizing ties between Israel and the Gulf States would isolate them further. And they received support and pressure from Iran to carry out an attack as part of Iran's rivalry (and more specifically the Revolutionary Guard) with the Gulf States and the West. Hamas needed a heavy handed Israeli response. The far right in Israel has long wanted increased hostility in Gaza and with Hamas. And so their interests here aligned. It's my understanding that support for Hamas is higher now than before, that relations between Arab and Gulf States and Israel is at a long time low, the US is increasingly isolated from Arab States (I can attest to this personally at home), and Iran is more influential now than ever. The people will suffer and die, but Hamas doesn't care. They've never cared. Hamas wants war. Gazans didn't. But war is here anyway. So now who do they turn to?

Poll numbers and context below:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas?fbclid=IwAR0iXLb4ZSXfmmxQDrxyNH3snjhhLU9cbT9fuHcfAFnwEv2Q8uHphkBQ2zk

Needs account but not a paid subscription. Read it. It's excellent.

Nah man that information might challenge my presuppositions.

What surprised me the most was how many supported the Oslo Accords and how few blamed the Israeli blockade for food shortages. I also assumed that more would support Russia more out of an anti-American foreign policy sentiment than anything else.

But if course, how the war changes these things, who knows.

It seems as if Israel wants to destroy Hamas and replace that leadership with something. There's been talk of replacing it with the PA. I'm not sure if the PA would even agree. If they don't succeed in replacing it with a Palestinian entity that has some sense of legitimacy, they'll end up occupying Gaza indefinitely. If their actions just strengthen Hamas, which is just as much of a movement, ideology, social organization, and government, as it is a militia and terrorist organization, then Hamas will just reform and grow.

So yes, it should definitely matters what people in Gaza think of Hamas. Honestly, it's kind of wild to assume that it doesn't. The problem is political and it will require a political solution from both Israelis and Palestinians.

lobopride said:

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Not really sure how an opinion poll among Gaza residents changes much.

It might change how you personally feel about the individual Palestinian's culpability with Hamas' crimes, but I don't see how it affects Israel's actions.

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Well, some believe that all Palestinians are a single entity that deserve to be punished for the actions of Hamas. Some even have argued for indiscriminate bombing, worse than what's been happening. If you believe all the Palestinians support Hamas and wanted the Oct 7 attack to occur, then it is easier to promote the idea that they must all suffer the consequences.

The US congress has something like a 30 percent approval rating too, but it tends not to change too dramatically year over year.

Broadly speaking, in the moslem world there is wide support for the Hamas-led terrorism/war on Israel. It's a religiously fueled fervor/jihad, and it's pointless to debate/question the veracity of that claim.

Approval ratings don't mean much about the population wanting to actually choose an alternative party or government.

What alternative party? It's a one party state. They don't hold elections. The vast majority of the people living in Gaza never voted or had the opportunity to vote for anyone.

That's not the only government they live under.

Huh?

How is the government that is "getting them killed" not the one actively dropping bombs on their heads?

There's plenty of responsibility for their deaths and suffering to go around. Trying to shield the Israelis from responsibility is absolutely bizarre.

craigernaught said:

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Huh?

How is the government that is "getting them killed" not the one actively dropping bombs on their heads?

There's plenty of responsibility for their deaths and suffering to go around. Trying to shield the Israelis from responsibility is absolutely bizarre.

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Because they weren't dying en masse until Hamas attacked on October 7th. Israel kicked all the Jews out of Gaza as a peace gesture towards the Palestinians. The only thing this got them was rocket attacks and suicide attacks. How many times has Israel offered the Palestinians a state just to get attacked more?

Israel is actively trying to limit innocent deaths.

How many times has Israel warned before bombing buildings? How many times has Israel told the population to go to the southern end because they are bombing Gaza City?

The deaths of Palestinians rest on several main factors:
1. European Union/United Nations and the like that fund the Palestinians knowing that some of the money is funneled to Hamas.
2. Iran
3. Hamas and all the other terrorist organizations

You can say all that and the left wing on this board still blames Israel.

All the ways the Palestinians could have avoided this just don't matter.