Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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RAB91 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Again, no one here has ever excused what Hamas did. There's a difference between kids in Gaza and Hamas.

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What is surprising to me is how many folks fail to make such a distinction and lump all Palestinians together!

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It isn't a matter of failing to make a distinction. Rational people understand that with how Hamas hides behind civilians that many unnecessary deaths will occur.... and all of them will be Hamas' fault.

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Exactly. There is a big chasm between Hamas targeting civilians and Israel targeting Hamas and unfortunately hitting civilians because Hamas hides behind them.

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Unless I'm reading you wrong, you're making the point that it's completely acceptable for as many civilian casualties as necessary to take out Hamas?

And if you look at what has gone on (it's really hard to look at), it appears Israel is making very VERY little effort to avoid civilian casualties.

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Tell me what specifically? They dropped leaflets telling people to go south. Don't live next to a building or in a building with Hamas terrorists.

Not sure specifically what more you expect them to do. Please list specific actions they should take.

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I can tell you what I expect. I expect them to not kill women and children after they attempted to take the path that israel told them to take and then end up dead.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231103-breaking-palestinians-killed-as-they-fled-israels-bombs/

NSFW

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I also expect them to not bomb ambulance convoys.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/several-killled-in-israeli-attack-on-ambulance-convoy-gaza-health-ministry

A refugee camp should kinda be off limits, too.

Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Macarthur said:

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We all agree Hamas is F'd up.

You didn't answer my question.

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You're correct. This is Hamas' decision.

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Again, you have not answered the question if Israel has ANY resonsibility for civilians.

If it takes killing every single Palenstinian, is that justified for Israel?

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No they have none. It's war. When your country decides to go to war there maybe many civilian casualties. That's what war is that is why it should be avoided at all costs. The Palestinians did. Or do this now they are reaping what they have sowed.

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Thanks for answering honestly. It makes me sad.

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That is why war should be avoided. That is why you rarely see two true democracies go to war. Leaders that are truly elected have to compromise and work with others. Dictators just have to compromise enough to stay in power. When someone unaccountable is sending others to die it makes it easier for them.

Or societies that are so sick and full of hate easily go to war. That is what you have in the Palestinians were a terrorist calls home to brag to his parents how he killed 10 Jews with his hands.

The Palestinians are reaping what they have sown

Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Macarthur said:

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We all agree Hamas is F'd up.

You didn't answer my question.

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You're correct. This is Hamas' decision.

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Again, you have not answered the question if Israel has ANY resonsibility for civilians.

If it takes killing every single Palenstinian, is that justified for Israel?

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No they have none. It's war. When your country decides to go to war there maybe many civilian casualties. That's what war is that is why it should be avoided at all costs. The Palestinians did. Or do this now they are reaping what they have sowed.

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Thanks for answering honestly. It makes me sad.

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That is why war should be avoided. That is why you rarely see two true democracies go to war.

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So, let me ask you this. Do you not think there is a way Israel could fight this war that doesn't involve killing multiples of civilians for each Hamas you take out?

Keep in mind, Israel has, by most accounts, one of the best intelligence agencies in the world. They have highly functional special forces and covert abilities. Why would this not be a better course of action, for the most part?

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No, there is no practical way. People are dumb and think because we have highly accurate weapons we can prevent this. It can't. Israel will likely have soldiers that die from friendly fire too.

War is high stress and people makes errors, equipment malfunctions, intelligence can be bad.

Doctors make mistakes in hospitals when stress is a lot lower and others are not trying to kill you while you do your job.

Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Not ducking anything. In the long term it would be counterproductive and turn the world against Israel.

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So indiscriminate bombing of civilians isn't going to sour some folks on Israel?

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It would spread radioactive material all over the region.

Nobody reasonable wants that much blood on their hands justified or not.

Israel need not need go to to that extreme for their protection.

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I do find it interesting that you seem to think the world doesn't already think Israel is acting in an extreme and disproportionate manner.

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I think the course they are taking now is justified, proportionally justified. They need to exterminate hamas and relocate the Palestinians although they will not relocate the Palestinians and the problem will come back in the future.

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For proportion, the estimate is approaching 9000 Palenstinians and 1400 Israelies. At what point does this become not proportional in your mind?

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I have answered enough of your stupid questions.

SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Not ducking anything. In the long term it would be counterproductive and turn the world against Israel.

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So indiscriminate bombing of civilians isn't going to sour some folks on Israel?

Quote:

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It would spread radioactive material all over the region.

Nobody reasonable wants that much blood on their hands justified or not.

Israel need not need go to to that extreme for their protection.

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I do find it interesting that you seem to think the world doesn't already think Israel is acting in an extreme and disproportionate manner.

Quote:

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I think the course they are taking now is justified, proportionally justified. They need to exterminate hamas and relocate the Palestinians although they will not relocate the Palestinians and the problem will come back in the future.

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For proportion, the estimate is approaching 9000 Palenstinians and 1400 Israelies. At what point does this become not proportional in your mind?

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I have answered enough of your stupid questions.

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You're really showing the love of Christ, pal.

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You can do better.

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So could you.

Macarthur said:

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Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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RAB91 said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Again, no one here has ever excused what Hamas did. There's a difference between kids in Gaza and Hamas.

---

What is surprising to me is how many folks fail to make such a distinction and lump all Palestinians together!

---

It isn't a matter of failing to make a distinction. Rational people understand that with how Hamas hides behind civilians that many unnecessary deaths will occur.... and all of them will be Hamas' fault.

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Exactly. There is a big chasm between Hamas targeting civilians and Israel targeting Hamas and unfortunately hitting civilians because Hamas hides behind them.

---

Unless I'm reading you wrong, you're making the point that it's completely acceptable for as many civilian casualties as necessary to take out Hamas?

And if you look at what has gone on (it's really hard to look at), it appears Israel is making very VERY little effort to avoid civilian casualties.

---

Tell me what specifically? They dropped leaflets telling people to go south. Don't live next to a building or in a building with Hamas terrorists.

Not sure specifically what more you expect them to do. Please list specific actions they should take.

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I can tell you what I expect. I expect them to not kill women and children after they attempted to take the path that israel told them to take and then end up dead.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231103-breaking-palestinians-killed-as-they-fled-israels-bombs/

NSFW

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I also expect them to not bomb ambulance convoys.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/several-killled-in-israeli-attack-on-ambulance-convoy-gaza-health-ministry

A refugee camp should kinda be off limits, too.

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The second you say something is off limits, Hamas will hide behind it.

Ambulances have been used to smuggle weapons and people into Israel.

The refugee camp that was hit had a hamas command center under it.

Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Not ducking anything. In the long term it would be counterproductive and turn the world against Israel.

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So indiscriminate bombing of civilians isn't going to sour some folks on Israel?

Quote:

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It would spread radioactive material all over the region.

Nobody reasonable wants that much blood on their hands justified or not.

Israel need not need go to to that extreme for their protection.

---

I do find it interesting that you seem to think the world doesn't already think Israel is acting in an extreme and disproportionate manner.

Quote:

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I think the course they are taking now is justified, proportionally justified. They need to exterminate hamas and relocate the Palestinians although they will not relocate the Palestinians and the problem will come back in the future.

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For proportion, the estimate is approaching 9000 Palenstinians and 1400 Israelies. At what point does this become not proportional in your mind?

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When they intentionally target civilians. As long as the primary targets are Hamas members, Israel should have the green light from the international community.

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You're really showing the love of Christ, pal.

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This always makes me laugh when it comes from certain folks.

Macarthur said:

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So, the answer is no amount of Palestinian lives is enough?

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How can you possibly draw that conclusion from what I've said?

All you Palestinian sympathizers Let me tell you it sucks to lose a war. Maybe next time they will be more careful… I doubt it.

If tens thousands of Palestinians die it is on Hamas.

Maybe your tears are better to use on the Jewish babies killed by putting into an oven and all the other atrocities.

Maybe you should complain about the hostage's taken. No you just want to blame Israel for collateral damage and deaths.

Yeah, 2 out of 5 deaths are kids. Those kids need to think twice about being born where they are. That'll teach em.

Macarthur said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Macarthur said:

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So, the answer is no amount of Palestinian lives is enough?

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How can you possibly draw that conclusion from what I've said?

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Sorry I conflated your argument and the other discussion that I was having.

So my question to you is, is there a limit to the number of innocent Palestinians that have to be killed that you would say Israel needs to pause here and reassess how they're doing this?

And another question for those that think Israel is acting proportionally - if Hamas had tunnels in Israel and were using Israelis as human shields, would you still be comfortable w this level of collateral damage?

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What I find interesting is you frame this so that the decision is Israel's alone.

Let me pose an alternative question. How many innocent Palestinians need to be killed for Hamas to surrender? This could be all over without another innocent Palestinian death.

Why do you just accept that Hamas is going to use civilians as shields and it's Israels responsibility alone to limit casualties?

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The only way I can answer your question is to say "yes" if a terrorist group launches an unannounced attack on a rival "country" for all intents and purposes, then they should not be afforded protection. I assume you asked your question because Muslim vs Jew, but we had no problem bombing Germany, Italy, and Japan without qualms. So I'm not basing my opinion on race or religion, but on terrorism.

Macarthur said:

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We all here disagree with Hamas because they are terroists and need to be exterminated. So I don't view this as just an Israel thing, but they are our ally and we are 'supporting' them. Just because you are dealing with terrorists, I do not believe that gives you the right to ignore all rules of war and disregard all responsibilities toward civilians.

As to your point about Japan and Germany, we certainly should always acknowledge when we did things that we snoudln't have done and vow to be better. Hopefully we learn from these things and makes what is happening now even more awful. In fact, you could argue we still have some crap to answer for in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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But you've now made a claim that Israel is "ignoring the rules of war and their responsibility towards civilians."

Are you claiming there's evidence that Israel is ignoring the rules of engagement or posing a hypothetical?

Your proof is an unconfirmed video from a pro Palestinian/Hamas website?

Macarthur said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Your proof is an unconfirmed video from a pro Palestinian/Hamas website?

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Well, I guess we will do the dance of questioning sources.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/#:~:text=As%20Israeli%20forces%20continue%20to,be%20investigated%20as%20war%20crimes.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/have-war-crimes-been-committed-in-israel-and-gaza-and-what-international-laws-apply

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There's no "dance of question sources." I don't think I posted a source at all in conversation with you?

All you had to do was click the link in your article to see that every instagram post they make (that's how they shared the video) is pro hamas and palestine and they aren't the most trustworthy source. Even in their attempts to cite Reuters amounts to "we don't know what happened."


Btw...the war crime the UN accuses Israel of?

"The UN also said that Israel may be committing the war crime of collective punishment through its siege of the Gaza territory."

This is weak at best.

The obvious counter is that any fuel or food given to Gaza is immediately stolen by Hamas to continue to allow them to hide. Hence why Israel has told Gaza citizens to leave.

Amnesty International claims are meh at best. They don't know what intel Israel had at the time and so their claims are fine, but Israel may very well have had reason and sources that they don't want to share with the entire world media (for obvious reasons).