Most people have low reading comprehension and some lack much intellect. That probably explains most of it. It's not a sin to be stupid or not understand.

The problem is when someone is deliberately dishonest.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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For example, on Facebook, a friend of mine posted something

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Quote:

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A man replied to his post

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Quote:

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I responded pointing out that

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Quote:

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However, his response after is

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First time on the internet?

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Yes, first time today actually.

Facebook is a medium, just like anything else. It is possible to have real discourse. Heck, sometimes on Texags I see intelligent conversation.

This guy worships Ishtar, so you can't expect him to be honest about what Jesus said.

The Torah predicts what would happen to the "church" after Yeshua's first coming. Abraham coming from Zion down to Egypt is a picture of Yeshua's first coming. Egypt is always the picture of sin, or a sinful world, in scripture. Abraham's bride (i.e. the church) got taken into Pharaoh's court and dressed up to look like a pagan princes. Pagan symbols and feast were quickly attached to the "church" and she stopped looking like the bride of Abraham that she really was.

In Matthew 23:23, Yeshua said "These things you should have done"; meaning the weightier matters of the Torah, WITHOUT ignoring the other; meaning the simple matters of the Torah. But make no mistake, Yeshua is telling His followers to keep ALL of the Torah; just in the proper way He was directly them to do (which they had failed at; hence the admonition). This was not a abolishment of any of the commandments, but a direction about how to keep all the commandments properly.

He also says anyone who abolishes or annuls even the least of the commandments, or teaches anyone to abolish even the least of the commandments, will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven; which can't possibly include Yeshua, because He kept the Law perfectly to become our perfect sin sacrifice.

If you interpret anything else Yeshua or His Apostles said, did or wrote as disagreeing with this plain "gospel" then you are showing your anti-Jewish/Yeshua bias and ignoring plausible interpretations that don't contradict Yeshua's simple words

The "church" got clothed in Pharaoh's court and abolished the Sabbath; telling them to worship on the Sun(god)Day. That was just the start.

"Come out of her my people. "

Sun(god)day…. Please tell us some more.

To think, it used to be pretty controversial to say that the Scriptures are straight forward enough that even the layman can read them and understand them.

The gospel OT:

Genesis 15:4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him (Abram), saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The gospel NT during the life of Jesus:
John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

The gospel NT Post resurrection:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Salvation if a free gift:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A person enters into a relationship with God freely through the vehicle of faith in Jesus. It costs us nothing. It cost Him everything, namely that the first time in eternity the trinity was severed as God the Son was separated from God the Father as He bore the sins of the world.

DirtDiver said:

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The gospel OT:

Genesis 15:4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him (Abram), saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The gospel NT during the life of Jesus:
John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

The gospel NT Post resurrection:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Salvation if a free gift:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A person enters into a relationship with God freely through the vehicle of faith in Jesus. It costs us nothing. It cost Him everything, namely that the first time in eternity the trinity was severed as God the Son was separated from God the Father as He bore the sins of the world.

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Amen.

He is not far off though, maybe even closer than you give him credit for... let's dive in:

#1 - "Well, we will have to disagree totally here. Remember that the original gospels were written in Aramaic, then translated to Greek, then to Latin then to other languages, so I think that trying to parse the Bible literally is a bit of a dangerous exercise."

Most biblical scholars will say they were written in Greek. Other than that, he is right that there have been many translations, so it is no wonder we have some nuanced differences when it comes to a word for word accuracy. I know at least one theologian that learned Greek, just to read the original writings.

#2 - "But the basic teachings of Jesus himself are pretty straightforward and he summarized them in the Sermon in the Mount.

He agrees with you and he is right about the sermon on the mount.

#3 - Moreover, looking to the future for eternal life doesn't make any sense to me.
The Jews called God "Yahweh" which means "I am" and thus God can only found in the eternal now.
And anyone can experience the now through various forms and practices. As a musician I get to experience the now every time I make music. And in the end all we have ever had or will ever have is now."

The eternal now - you should probably ask what he means by this, however, I suspect there is an eastern mysticism in his understanding which given the word "eternal" can only mean that God is not bound by time and why (HEB 13:8) proclaims, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever."

Did you ever ask yourself what is meant by the passage in (MT 3:2) "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? That sounds like a "now" moment and given the nature of God as "eternal" - I can see how he understands his spirituality. The fact that he goes on to connect music with spirituality is spot on with what others have written.

+++

My question for you then, is why is his path problematic to you? Does this not sound very much like the Apostles complaining to Jesus about others driving out demons in his name (MK 9:38) and then Jesus basically saying to them that "for whoever is not against us is for us."

ETA:

"When I examined this guy's profile, he is an elderly gay man married to a much younger person." -Hmmm.

Quote:

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Same as modern republicans ignoring the obviously pacifist message of Jesus with "well actually, 'turn the other cheek' does mean you can shoot someone stealing your stuff!"

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38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Defending one's possessions vs defending others.
Do you think Jesus would have seen a distinction between stealing one's car vs stealing one's child?

Also: The context of this section of scripture is to expose our sinfulness. One cannot read Matthew 5-7 and feel good about their behavior unless they are extremely self righteous. Try reading through this section and ask, "How many times have I failed to do this or that?" and make a list. If there is anything on this list, then the need for God's forgiveness has been identified.


From McArthur:
As human beings we have the right to be treated with basic dignity, respect, and consideration. Because every person is created in His image, God demands that we treat one another with respect. But he knows that we will not always be so treated. Often for the very reason that we belong to God and go by the name of His Son, we will be mistreated, ridiculed, and held in contempt (see Matt. 10:1623; John 15:1816:3; 1 Pet. 2:2021; 3:1317; 4:1219; cf. 2 Tim. 3:12). It is the way we react to mistreatment and insult that Jesus is talking about here.

Among Jews, a slap or other striking in the face was among the most demeaning and contemptuous of acts (cf. Matt. 26:6768; Mark 14:65; John 18:22). To strike someone elsewhere on the body might cause more physical harm, but a slap in the face was an attack on one's honor and was considered to be a terrible indignity. It was to be treated with disdain, as being less than a human. Even a slave would rather have been stuck across the back with a whip than be slapped in the face by his master's hand.

To strike someone on the right cheek would then be a vicious angry reaction, indicating an act of insult. Yet when we are insulted, maligned, and treated with contempt-literally or figuratively struck on the cheek by someone-we are to turn to him the other also. But Jesus' point pertains more to what we are not to do than what we are to do. Turning the other cheek symbolizes the nonavenging, nonretaliatory, humble, and gentle spirit that is to characterize kingdom citizens (cf. vv. 3, 5).

Jesus strongly resisted evil that was directed against others, especially His Father-as when He cleansed the Temple of those who defiled His Father's house. But He did not resist by personal vengeance any evil directed at Himself. When the leaders of the Sanhedrin, and later the soldiers, physically abused Him and mocked Him, He did not retaliate either in words or in actions (Matt. 26:6768). As Isaiah had predicted of Him, Christ gave His back to those who struck Him and His cheeks to those who plucked out His beard (Isa. 50:6). As Jesus hung from the cross, He prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34). Peter sums up our Lord's example: "But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously" (1 Pet. 2:2023).

PabloSerna said:

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He is not far off though, maybe even closer than you give him credit for... let's dive in:

#1 - "Well, we will have to disagree totally here. Remember that the original gospels were written in Aramaic, then translated to Greek, then to Latin then to other languages, so I think that trying to parse the Bible literally is a bit of a dangerous exercise."

Most biblical scholars will say they were written in Greek. Other than that, he is right that there have been many translations, so it is no wonder we have some nuanced differences when it comes to a word for word accuracy. I know at least one theologian that learned Greek, just to read the original writings.

#2 - "But the basic teachings of Jesus himself are pretty straightforward and he summarized them in the Sermon in the Mount.

He agrees with you and he is right about the sermon on the mount.

#3 - Moreover, looking to the future for eternal life doesn't make any sense to me.
The Jews called God "Yahweh" which means "I am" and thus God can only found in the eternal now.
And anyone can experience the now through various forms and practices. As a musician I get to experience the now every time I make music. And in the end all we have ever had or will ever have is now."

The eternal now - you should probably ask what he means by this, however, I suspect there is an eastern mysticism in his understanding which given the word "eternal" can only mean that God is not bound by time and why (HEB 13:8) proclaims, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever."

Did you ever ask yourself what is meant by the passage in (MT 3:2) "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? That sounds like a "now" moment and given the nature of God as "eternal" - I can see how he understands his spirituality. The fact that he goes on to connect music with spirituality is spot on with what others have written.

+++

My question for you then, is why is his path problematic to you? Does this not sound very much like the Apostles complaining to Jesus about others driving out demons in his name (MK 9:38) and then Jesus basically saying to them that "for whoever is not against us is for us."

ETA:

"When I examined this guy's profile, he is an elderly gay man married to a much younger person." -Hmmm.

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Sorry been busy, thanks for the reply. I'll respond to you tomorrow.

DirtDiver said:

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The gospel OT:

Genesis 15:4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him (Abram), saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The gospel NT during the life of Jesus:
John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

The gospel NT Post resurrection:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Salvation if a free gift:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A person enters into a relationship with God freely through the vehicle of faith in Jesus. It costs us nothing. It cost Him everything, namely that the first time in eternity the trinity was severed as God the Son was separated from God the Father as He bore the sins of the world.

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This is a great post. I will add one paradoxical statement to this.
Salvation is the free gift that will cost a person everything.

Matthew 13:44-45
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

God's gracious salvation is given freely, but accepting Christ Jesus as Lord will cost a person all that they have.

Bob_Ag said:

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DirtDiver said:

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The gospel OT:

Genesis 15:4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him (Abram), saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The gospel NT during the life of Jesus:
John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

The gospel NT Post resurrection:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Salvation if a free gift:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A person enters into a relationship with God freely through the vehicle of faith in Jesus. It costs us nothing. It cost Him everything, namely that the first time in eternity the trinity was severed as God the Son was separated from God the Father as He bore the sins of the world.

---

This is a great post. I will add one paradoxical statement to this.
Salvation is the free gift that will cost a person everything.

Matthew 13:44-45
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

God's gracious salvation is given freely, but accepting Christ Jesus as Lord will cost a person all that they have.

---

Agree. It is sad that in my experience, so many Christians are not joyful as the man in the Scripture was.

We should be the most joyful, gracious, kind, loving, caring, long suffering people in the world.

And I believe that is what attracts people.

Be different.

Quote:

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#1 - "Well, we will have to disagree totally here. Remember that the original gospels were written in Aramaic, then translated to Greek, then to Latin then to other languages, so I think that trying to parse the Bible literally is a bit of a dangerous exercise."

Most biblical scholars will say they were written in Greek. Other than that, he is right that there have been many translations, so it is no wonder we have some nuanced differences when it comes to a word for word accuracy. I know at least one theologian that learned Greek, just to read the original writings.

---

I know of many theologians that teach and know Greek and I'm very aware of how the Bible came together from textual historicity. It is the most scrutinized work in antiquity without a close second. Without going into a long retort here, critics have been making this argument for centuries and is a common refute from Muslims.
Are there metaphors in the Bible? Yes. Is there allegory? Yes. Are the truths of the Bible literal. You better believe it.
If people don't want to take the Gospels as literal truth and want to reject that Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation, they do so at their own peril.

Besides his argument is a non sequitur. He's making a very broad statement about the entirety of the Bible to refute a very specific verse and claim made by Jesus. The logic doesn't follow.

Quote:

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#2 - "But the basic teachings of Jesus himself are pretty straightforward and he summarized them in the Sermon in the Mount.

He agrees with you and he is right about the sermon on the mount.

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Does he? It doesn't appear he agrees.

13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Mt 7:1314.

Quote:

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#3 - Moreover, looking to the future for eternal life doesn't make any sense to me.
The Jews called God "Yahweh" which means "I am" and thus God can only found in the eternal now.
And anyone can experience the now through various forms and practices. As a musician I get to experience the now every time I make music. And in the end all we have ever had or will ever have is now."

The eternal now - you should probably ask what he means by this, however, I suspect there is an eastern mysticism in his understanding which given the word "eternal" can only mean that God is not bound by time and why (HEB 13:8) proclaims, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever."

Did you ever ask yourself what is meant by the passage in (MT 3:2) "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? That sounds like a "now" moment and given the nature of God as "eternal" - I can see how he understands his spirituality. The fact that he goes on to connect music with spirituality is spot on with what others have written.

---

Yes he adheres to heresy. He quoted in one of his replies from the book of "A Course in Miracles" which is new age gnosticism and pantheism.

And yes, there are many statements in the New Testament where the tense is referring to the present or past, but corresponds to a future event. "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son..."
Point being, we live in a temporal world now that is subject to time and change. God being eternal and infinite, is immutable. This life and this world are repeatedly mentioned as transient in the Scripture. All we ever have and will ever have, as he notes, is the complete opposite of now. God's aseity and eternal character do not change the fact that He created a temporal world for us to live in now which we have a finite amount of time to accept salvation.

Quote:

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My question for you then, is why is his path problematic to you? Does this not sound very much like the Apostles complaining to Jesus about others driving out demons in his name (MK 9:38) and then Jesus basically saying to them that "for whoever is not against us is for us."

ETA:

"When I examined this guy's profile, he is an elderly gay man married to a much younger person." -Hmmm.

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The worst thing that a believer can ever do for anyone is represent the Gospel in an untruthful manner. Why do you think Christ was so adamant about preaching repentance? The way to the Father? Hell? The bread of life? Why do you think there is so much scripture about false teaching and false gospels?
It's because wide is the path that leads to hell.

You cite Mark 9:38, but it should be clear from Matthew 7:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Mt 7:2123.

Many will be turned away at the gate to Heaven and shame on us if that is due to our own false teaching. Always proclaim the literal Gospel truth and no other.

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"

dermdoc said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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DirtDiver said:

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The gospel OT:

Genesis 15:4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him (Abram), saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

The gospel NT during the life of Jesus:
John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

The gospel NT Post resurrection:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Salvation if a free gift:
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A person enters into a relationship with God freely through the vehicle of faith in Jesus. It costs us nothing. It cost Him everything, namely that the first time in eternity the trinity was severed as God the Son was separated from God the Father as He bore the sins of the world.

---

This is a great post. I will add one paradoxical statement to this.
Salvation is the free gift that will cost a person everything.

Matthew 13:44-45
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

God's gracious salvation is given freely, but accepting Christ Jesus as Lord will cost a person all that they have.

---

Agree. It is sad that in my experience, so many Christians are not joyful as the man in the Scripture was.

We should be the most joyful, gracious, kind, loving, caring, long suffering people in the world.

And I believe that is what attracts people.

Be different.

---

Amen. Rejoice in the Lord.

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

PabloSerna said:

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What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

Why is the Gospel the most commonly twisted part of the Bible? Simply put because the Gospel and trusting what it says about Jesus is HOW we come to a saving Faith In Jesus Christ to go to Heaven instead of Hell and Satan does NOT want that to happen. If Satan showed everyone the real look of what following him either blatantly or unconsciously looks like and what it would result in (an eternal separation from God after death), NO ONE would end up following a false gospel.

But instead of giving people something way off the true mark, he presents something JUST off the mark so that it still kind of looks and sounds like the real thing enough that people who don't know the Truth like the sound of it because of the tidbits of truth related words and because they want the real Truth of the Gospel but don't know it, they chase those things that are just off the mark but don't result in them hitting the bullseye which is a saving faith in Christ through the Gospel.

The only way to "hit the bullseye" is through the Gospel which is open to EVERYONE! That's why we are to tell people about it because otherwise how will they know? Im glad someone told me one time because its changed my life and Eternity!

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

No, I do not agree. Dirt Diver did a very good exposition on John 6, as well as the I AM statements.

I'll add this. What is the context of John 6? Jesus just performed miracles, yet he is telling the people that although you just saw a supernatural miracle, some (most) of you will not believe. He repeats this multiple times in John 6. His reference to the days in the wilderness about bread is reminiscent of his comment to Satan that "Man shall not live on bread alone" which I'll remind you he is referencing scriptural authority here, not tradition. This is very similar to his statement to the Samaritan woman about "living water" and those who drink this water will never thirst again. This is a parallel statement to those who ate bread in the wilderness died, but those who eat the bread of his flesh will have life.

What is the point of all this? What is the point of the Gospel? It's repentance and regeneration by surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That's how people are saved. You eat his flesh, you drink his blood, you have living water. You devote your life to him and turn away from the world. That's why they say in John 60, "this is hard saying" and then they do what? They leave after just witnessing a supernatural miracle!

They leave for the same reason the rich young ruler turns away. They refuse to sacrifice everything, deny themselves, and take up your cross to follow Jesus. Its the same story time and again. Jesus came to save sinners and not the righteous. He came to save people who are aware of their sin and want to repent. Everyone else will leave.

And this gets back to my original post. The Gospel is objective truth. No matter how hard people want to read their cultural narrative into it which has been happening since the beginning of the church, the hard truth is that it is those who will repent and surrender that will be saved and regenerated. This is a fact repeated over and over again in the Gospels.

Bob_Ag said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

No, I do not agree. Dirt Diver did a very good exposition on John 6, as well as the I AM statements.

I'll add this. What is the context of John 6? Jesus just performed miracles, yet he is telling the people that although you just saw a supernatural miracle, some (most) of you will not believe. He repeats this multiple times in John 6. His reference to the days in the wilderness about bread is reminiscent of his comment to Satan that "Man shall not live on bread alone" which I'll remind you he is referencing scriptural authority here, not tradition. This is very similar to his statement to the Samaritan woman about "living water" and those who drink this water will never thirst again. This is a parallel statement to those who ate bread in the wilderness died, but those who eat the bread of his flesh will have life.

What is the point of all this? What is the point of the Gospel? It's repentance and regeneration by surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That's how people are saved. You eat his flesh, you drink his blood, you have living water. You devote your life to him and turn away from the world. That's why they say in John 60, "this is hard saying" and then they do what? They leave after just witnessing a supernatural miracle!

They leave for the same reason the rich young ruler turns away. They refuse to sacrifice everything, deny themselves, and take up your cross to follow Jesus. Its the same story time and again. Jesus came to save sinners and not the righteous. He came to save people who are aware of their sin and want to repent. Everyone else will leave.

And this gets back to my original post. The Gospel is objective truth. No matter how hard people want to read their cultural narrative into it which has been happening since the beginning of the church, the hard truth is that it is those who will repent and surrender that will be saved and regenerated. This is a fact repeated over and over again in the Gospels.

---

The Gospel is objective truth....but God didn't say it would all be easily interpreted and in fact left us His Church to help. It was the teachings of what scripture means that is the tradition. People have created these new traditions of doing exactly what you stated, reading their own cultural narrative or biases into it. Many places in scripture can be and have be misinterpreted. Sure the Holy Spirit can help us decipher it...but Christ left us His Church to help. Saying its objective truth absolutely doesn't mean its easily interpreted. If I say " I never said you stole the money", how do you interpret where the emphasis lies? There are 6 or 7 ways to interpret it. There are people in every Christian denomination who have repented and surrendered...but still may be misinterpreting some of scripture.

Well I fully intended to stir up some opposing interpretations to make the point, again, that your Facebook friend was not far off.

The scriptural basis for the Eucharist is the most debated part of scripture and as my kid pointed out to me - contains one of the saddest lines in all of the Bible, John 6:66 "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer followed him."

BluHorseShu said:

---

Bob_Ag said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

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No, I do not agree. Dirt Diver did a very good exposition on John 6, as well as the I AM statements.

I'll add this. What is the context of John 6? Jesus just performed miracles, yet he is telling the people that although you just saw a supernatural miracle, some (most) of you will not believe. He repeats this multiple times in John 6. His reference to the days in the wilderness about bread is reminiscent of his comment to Satan that "Man shall not live on bread alone" which I'll remind you he is referencing scriptural authority here, not tradition. This is very similar to his statement to the Samaritan woman about "living water" and those who drink this water will never thirst again. This is a parallel statement to those who ate bread in the wilderness died, but those who eat the bread of his flesh will have life.

What is the point of all this? What is the point of the Gospel? It's repentance and regeneration by surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That's how people are saved. You eat his flesh, you drink his blood, you have living water. You devote your life to him and turn away from the world. That's why they say in John 60, "this is hard saying" and then they do what? They leave after just witnessing a supernatural miracle!

They leave for the same reason the rich young ruler turns away. They refuse to sacrifice everything, deny themselves, and take up your cross to follow Jesus. Its the same story time and again. Jesus came to save sinners and not the righteous. He came to save people who are aware of their sin and want to repent. Everyone else will leave.

And this gets back to my original post. The Gospel is objective truth. No matter how hard people want to read their cultural narrative into it which has been happening since the beginning of the church, the hard truth is that it is those who will repent and surrender that will be saved and regenerated. This is a fact repeated over and over again in the Gospels.

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The Gospel is objective truth....but God didn't say it would all be easily interpreted and in fact left us His Church to help. It was the teachings of what scripture means that is the tradition. People have created these new traditions of doing exactly what you stated, reading their own cultural narrative or biases into it. Many places in scripture can be and have be misinterpreted. Sure the Holy Spirit can help us decipher it...but Christ left us His Church to help. Saying its objective truth absolutely doesn't mean its easily interpreted. If I say " I never said you stole the money", how do you interpret where the emphasis lies? There are 6 or 7 ways to interpret it. There are people in every Christian denomination who have repented and surrendered...but still may be misinterpreting some of scripture.

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I disagree. Are there aspects of scripture that are still left a mystery like heaven, eternal life, and our resurrected bodies? Sure. But the Gospel? No.
The Gospel is not hard to interpret, it's hard to accept. That's the point of John 6.
Jesus clearly states in several passages what it requires to follow him and it requires everything. People will twist their ideologies into it pretending they have salvation while living unrepentant lives and not putting Jesus first. Is Christ not the one who gives thanks to the Father for revealing the truth to children but hiding it from the wise? What is the first thing Jesus says when he begins his ministry? "Repent". It's not complicated, it's costly.

Bob_Ag said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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Bob_Ag said:

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PabloSerna said:

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What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

No, I do not agree. Dirt Diver did a very good exposition on John 6, as well as the I AM statements.

I'll add this. What is the context of John 6? Jesus just performed miracles, yet he is telling the people that although you just saw a supernatural miracle, some (most) of you will not believe. He repeats this multiple times in John 6. His reference to the days in the wilderness about bread is reminiscent of his comment to Satan that "Man shall not live on bread alone" which I'll remind you he is referencing scriptural authority here, not tradition. This is very similar to his statement to the Samaritan woman about "living water" and those who drink this water will never thirst again. This is a parallel statement to those who ate bread in the wilderness died, but those who eat the bread of his flesh will have life.

What is the point of all this? What is the point of the Gospel? It's repentance and regeneration by surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That's how people are saved. You eat his flesh, you drink his blood, you have living water. You devote your life to him and turn away from the world. That's why they say in John 60, "this is hard saying" and then they do what? They leave after just witnessing a supernatural miracle!

They leave for the same reason the rich young ruler turns away. They refuse to sacrifice everything, deny themselves, and take up your cross to follow Jesus. Its the same story time and again. Jesus came to save sinners and not the righteous. He came to save people who are aware of their sin and want to repent. Everyone else will leave.

And this gets back to my original post. The Gospel is objective truth. No matter how hard people want to read their cultural narrative into it which has been happening since the beginning of the church, the hard truth is that it is those who will repent and surrender that will be saved and regenerated. This is a fact repeated over and over again in the Gospels.

---

The Gospel is objective truth....but God didn't say it would all be easily interpreted and in fact left us His Church to help. It was the teachings of what scripture means that is the tradition. People have created these new traditions of doing exactly what you stated, reading their own cultural narrative or biases into it. Many places in scripture can be and have be misinterpreted. Sure the Holy Spirit can help us decipher it...but Christ left us His Church to help. Saying its objective truth absolutely doesn't mean its easily interpreted. If I say " I never said you stole the money", how do you interpret where the emphasis lies? There are 6 or 7 ways to interpret it. There are people in every Christian denomination who have repented and surrendered...but still may be misinterpreting some of scripture.

---

I disagree. Are there aspects of scripture that are still left a mystery like heaven, eternal life, and our resurrected bodies? Sure. But the Gospel? No.
The Gospel is not hard to interpret, it's hard to accept. That's the point of John 6.
Jesus clearly states in several passages what it requires to follow him and it requires everything. People will twist their ideologies into it pretending they have salvation while living unrepentant lives and not putting Jesus first. Is Christ not the one who gives thanks to the Father for revealing the truth to children but hiding it from the wise? What is the first thing Jesus says when he begins his ministry? "Repent". It's not complicated, it's costly.

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Agree for the most part. We are changed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Sounds like you are getting very close to being legalistic. Just my view. I do not think we can know the true heart of a person and whether they know the Lord or not.

All that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

This sounds like Lordship salvation theology of Piper and MacArthur.