Quote:

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Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

26 Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Get up and go toward the south[a] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over to this chariot and join it." 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth."

34 The eunuch asked Philip, "About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they were going along the road, they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?"[b] 38 He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip[c] baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

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BluHorseShu said:

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DirtDiver said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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DirtDiver said:

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PabloSerna said:

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What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

---

If we are to trust the interpretations of others who's interpretation to we accept when they disagree?

Early church fathers,
apostles,
prophets,
the pope's

Also, what is the purpose of these passages?

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I have many Jesus loving family members that have graduated from Masters Seminary. John MacArthur may be one of the best Bible expositors in our generation. I had the study bible and listened to his sermons and referred to him as a point of authority. I was wrong in doing this. I took classes on Biblical exposition where we relied on the Spirit of God and scripture to speak for itself.

Context, context, context, (historical, grammatical)
word studies,
principles of interpretation (the bible will not contradict)
commentaries were not allowed unless we were using multiple views to challenge.

In not relying on others to interpret scripture I had a misunderstanding of the gospel in it's clearest form.

No one is going to Heaven because they "follow Jesus or submit to His Lordship" or partake in the Eucharist. Many non-believers believe they are doing this and saved by it.

A person is saved on the very free moment Jesus takes away their sins, when they believe in Him and Him alone. A few questions for reflection:

Does God save a person when they take up their cross and follow Him OR when they accept the free gift that Jesus offered when He took up His cross and paid our debt in full?
Does God save a person when they partake in the Lords supper OR the moment they believe that Jesus body and blood paid for all of their sins?

The gospel is absolutely free. Once accepted freely then a believer is given the resources (namely the Holy Spirit) and is empowered to follow Jesus. (Apart from Him we can do nothing) and has the opportunity to take up their cross.

Salvation is a free gift. It costs Jesus everything, and us nothing.
Discipleship (once saved) and following Jesus fully will cost us greatly.

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

---

If we are to trust the interpretations of others who's interpretation to we accept when they disagree?

Early church fathers,
apostles,
prophets,
the pope's

Also, what is the purpose of these passages?

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I have many Jesus loving family members that have graduated from Masters Seminary. John MacArthur may be one of the best Bible expositors in our generation. I had the study bible and listened to his sermons and referred to him as a point of authority. I was wrong in doing this. I took classes on Biblical exposition where we relied on the Spirit of God and scripture to speak for itself.

Context, context, context, (historical, grammatical)
word studies,
principles of interpretation (the bible will not contradict)
commentaries were not allowed unless we were using multiple views to challenge.

In not relying on others to interpret scripture I had a misunderstanding of the gospel in it's clearest form.

No one is going to Heaven because they "follow Jesus or submit to His Lordship" or partake in the Eucharist. Many non-believers believe they are doing this and saved by it.

A person is saved on the very free moment Jesus takes away their sins, when they believe in Him and Him alone. A few questions for reflection:

Does God save a person when they take up their cross and follow Him OR when they accept the free gift that Jesus offered when He took up His cross and paid our debt in full?
Does God save a person when they partake in the Lords supper OR the moment they believe that Jesus body and blood paid for all of their sins?

The gospel is absolutely free. Once accepted freely then a believer is given the resources (namely the Holy Spirit) and is empowered to follow Jesus. (Apart from Him we can do nothing) and has the opportunity to take up their cross.

Salvation is a free gift. It costs Jesus everything, and us nothing.
Discipleship (once saved) and following Jesus fully will cost us greatly.

---

Agree completely. MacArthur and Piper both say their Lordship salvation theology is necessary for salvation.

I disagree. It is a free gift. God's grace and our faith.

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

---

If we are to trust the interpretations of others who's interpretation to we accept when they disagree?

Early church fathers,
apostles,
prophets,
the pope's

Also, what is the purpose of these passages?

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I have many Jesus loving family members that have graduated from Masters Seminary. John MacArthur may be one of the best Bible expositors in our generation. I had the study bible and listened to his sermons and referred to him as a point of authority. I was wrong in doing this. I took classes on Biblical exposition where we relied on the Spirit of God and scripture to speak for itself.

Context, context, context, (historical, grammatical)
word studies,
principles of interpretation (the bible will not contradict)
commentaries were not allowed unless we were using multiple views to challenge.

In not relying on others to interpret scripture I had a misunderstanding of the gospel in it's clearest form.

No one is going to Heaven because they "follow Jesus or submit to His Lordship" or partake in the Eucharist. Many non-believers believe they are doing this and saved by it.

A person is saved on the very free moment Jesus takes away their sins, when they believe in Him and Him alone. A few questions for reflection:

Does God save a person when they take up their cross and follow Him OR when they accept the free gift that Jesus offered when He took up His cross and paid our debt in full?
Does God save a person when they partake in the Lords supper OR the moment they believe that Jesus body and blood paid for all of their sins?

The gospel is absolutely free. Once accepted freely then a believer is given the resources (namely the Holy Spirit) and is empowered to follow Jesus. (Apart from Him we can do nothing) and has the opportunity to take up their cross.

Salvation is a free gift. It costs Jesus everything, and us nothing.
Discipleship (once saved) and following Jesus fully will cost us greatly.

---

We'll that's not exactly what Catholics believe...But to your point, then some one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah isn't saved because of their belief. They are saved because of their faith.

ETA: Catholics do not believe there is anything we can do to merit Grace. Salvation comes only from God's grace. Taking the Lords supper without faith means nothing.

BluHorseShu said:

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DirtDiver said:

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BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

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What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

---

If we are to trust the interpretations of others who's interpretation to we accept when they disagree?

Early church fathers,
apostles,
prophets,
the pope's

Also, what is the purpose of these passages?

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I have many Jesus loving family members that have graduated from Masters Seminary. John MacArthur may be one of the best Bible expositors in our generation. I had the study bible and listened to his sermons and referred to him as a point of authority. I was wrong in doing this. I took classes on Biblical exposition where we relied on the Spirit of God and scripture to speak for itself.

Context, context, context, (historical, grammatical)
word studies,
principles of interpretation (the bible will not contradict)
commentaries were not allowed unless we were using multiple views to challenge.

In not relying on others to interpret scripture I had a misunderstanding of the gospel in it's clearest form.

No one is going to Heaven because they "follow Jesus or submit to His Lordship" or partake in the Eucharist. Many non-believers believe they are doing this and saved by it.

A person is saved on the very free moment Jesus takes away their sins, when they believe in Him and Him alone. A few questions for reflection:

Does God save a person when they take up their cross and follow Him OR when they accept the free gift that Jesus offered when He took up His cross and paid our debt in full?
Does God save a person when they partake in the Lords supper OR the moment they believe that Jesus body and blood paid for all of their sins?

The gospel is absolutely free. Once accepted freely then a believer is given the resources (namely the Holy Spirit) and is empowered to follow Jesus. (Apart from Him we can do nothing) and has the opportunity to take up their cross.

Salvation is a free gift. It costs Jesus everything, and us nothing.
Discipleship (once saved) and following Jesus fully will cost us greatly.

---

We'll that's not exactly what Catholics believe...But to your point, then some one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah isn't saved because of their belief. They are saved because of their faith.

ETA: Catholics do not believe there is anything we can do to merit Grace. Salvation comes only from God's grace. Taking the Lords supper without faith means nothing.

---

Sorry if there was any confusion. I was combining responses to multiple posts. When a person says, we must trust the church or the church fathers, if they are not talking about the biblical text or not being able to interpret the biblical text for ourselves, then I believe we open the door for great error.

When we look at the epistles, Peter, James, and John's writing, they are addressing believers and correcting doctrine and misunderstandings. Even Peter gets called out by Paul in reference to the clarity of the gospel.

To be extremely nitpicky - I would not say a person is saved because of their believe but through their belief. What I mean by this is, Jesus (God) saves people by removing their sin debt. This declaration of righteous from God, this gift from God, happens at the moment of our belief. The very moment we not only believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but the moment we accept that what He did on the cross and His rising 3 days later, was sufficient payment for our own personal sins.

It's not enough to believe Jesus existed and that he died for the sins for the world, but that He died for the sins of me. The best acknowledgement for receiving this gift is to tell Him, "Thank you."

DirtDiver said:

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BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

What is your interpretation of this passage from the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

"51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum."

Sacred tradition cites this as the basis for the Eucharist, which both Orthodox and Catholics agree. Do you?

---

Interpretation:

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Let's looks at the entire book of John as a whole to understand it's parts:

• The purpose of the writing is clearly stated: JN 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I AM statements in John:

• You have already quoted the Bread passage
• The Light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." John 8:12
While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

• The Door of the Sheep

Jn 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

• The Good Shepherd

11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

• The resurrection and the Life

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

• The Way, Truth, and Life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

• The vine and vinedresser

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser...you are the branches


Direct claim to His identify
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."


When we examine the entirety of the book of John and the figurative language that Jesus uses to illustrate his points I think it helps us answer this question.

What does it mean to eat His flesh? Does it mean to partake in the Eucharist or to Believe?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

---

It means both. Parttaking of the Eucharist is part of our expression of belief...or rather faith. He said THE flesh profits nothing...not MY flesh. Of all the metaphors Christ uses, it would be extraneous for him to consistently state the importance of his flesh and blood, rather than just focusing on the intellectual aspect of belief/faith. Besides, faith is not an inert thing. So taking the bread is both an expression of the faith and a method for us to receive the Spirit. Its not to say we don't have the Spirit moving in us otherwise, but we are called to follow Christs instructions. Which is why for centuries after his resurrection the disciples and Church Fathers so the importance of communion.

---

Communion is important for these reasons.
Partaking in the Lord's supper is a practice of remembrance:
Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood

Believers can do it wrong:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.

Communion according to Catholics has been given meanings that are not in the biblical text.

It has absolutely nothing to do with receiving the Spirit:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JN 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A person can believe in the gospel, "accept Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient payment for their sins and be saved and receive the Spirit without ever hearing about the practice of communion or partaking in it.

Believers who are together should take communion properly to remember what Jesus has done on their behalf and proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back.

---

Well, I see what your saying but there is absolutely scriptural support. Its just how people choose to read it...some scriptures has Jesus speaking in metaphors and some do not. In addition to reading scripture in a vacuum, I think it is a mistake to read it without the historic interpretation of the Church fathers and what they practiced up until the 15th century. I will say this...when I was Protestant, I argued against it for a long time...and used scripture to back up my understanding but being raised as a Protestant I was taught what the interpretations were. For most people, its not just them under a tree by themselves for complete interpretation. I spent a long time really challenging the idea of the Eucharists meaning before I joined the Catholic Church. It got to were looing at all of the scripture and history of the Church I could not refute it because of my Protestant biases any longer. That took time.

---

If we are to trust the interpretations of others who's interpretation to we accept when they disagree?

Early church fathers,
apostles,
prophets,
the pope's

Also, what is the purpose of these passages?

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I have many Jesus loving family members that have graduated from Masters Seminary. John MacArthur may be one of the best Bible expositors in our generation. I had the study bible and listened to his sermons and referred to him as a point of authority. I was wrong in doing this. I took classes on Biblical exposition where we relied on the Spirit of God and scripture to speak for itself.

Context, context, context, (historical, grammatical)
word studies,
principles of interpretation (the bible will not contradict)
commentaries were not allowed unless we were using multiple views to challenge.

In not relying on others to interpret scripture I had a misunderstanding of the gospel in it's clearest form.

No one is going to Heaven because they "follow Jesus or submit to His Lordship" or partake in the Eucharist. Many non-believers believe they are doing this and saved by it.

A person is saved on the very free moment Jesus takes away their sins, when they believe in Him and Him alone. A few questions for reflection:

Does God save a person when they take up their cross and follow Him OR when they accept the free gift that Jesus offered when He took up His cross and paid our debt in full?
Does God save a person when they partake in the Lords supper OR the moment they believe that Jesus body and blood paid for all of their sins?

The gospel is absolutely free. Once accepted freely then a believer is given the resources (namely the Holy Spirit) and is empowered to follow Jesus. (Apart from Him we can do nothing) and has the opportunity to take up their cross.

Salvation is a free gift. It costs Jesus everything, and us nothing.
Discipleship (once saved) and following Jesus fully will cost us greatly.

---

We'll that's not exactly what Catholics believe...But to your point, then some one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah isn't saved because of their belief. They are saved because of their faith.

ETA: Catholics do not believe there is anything we can do to merit Grace. Salvation comes only from God's grace. Taking the Lords supper without faith means nothing.

---

Sorry if there was any confusion. I was combining responses to multiple posts. When a person says, we must trust the church or the church fathers, if they are not talking about the biblical text or not being able to interpret the biblical text for ourselves, then I believe we open the door for great error.

When we look at the epistles, Peter, James, and John's writing, they are addressing believers and correcting doctrine and misunderstandings. Even Peter gets called out by Paul in reference to the clarity of the gospel.

To be extremely nitpicky - I would not say a person is saved because of their believe but through their belief. What I mean by this is, Jesus (God) saves people by removing their sin debt. This declaration of righteous from God, this gift from God, happens at the moment of our belief. The very moment we not only believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but the moment we accept that what He did on the cross and His rising 3 days later, was sufficient payment for our own personal sins.

It's not enough to believe Jesus existed and that he died for the sins for the world, but that He died for the sins of me. The best acknowledgement for receiving this gift is to tell Him, "Thank you."

---

I can agree with some of this, though I would offer that the best acknowledgement is following his teachings, loving others etc. In other words, we are expressing our thankfulness by expressing our faith in him. Yes, we are saved the moment we fully not just believe but accept his free gift. But we cannot rest on our laurels here. Sure the Holy Spirit comes to us for strength and we can participate in the through things like the Eucharist, but we do not lose our freewill and we can still allow sin to creep in.

Athanasius said:

---

Quote:

---

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

26 Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Get up and go toward the south[a] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over to this chariot and join it." 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth."

34 The eunuch asked Philip, "About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they were going along the road, they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?"[b] 38 He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip[c] baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

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He's reading prophecy and one that literally very few people understood was being fulfilled. I'm not seeing how that supports the notion the Gospel message needs "someone to guide them"? The Gospels aren't obscure foretelling of Jesus Christ, they are the explicit account of Jesus Christ and the way to salvation.

Bob_Ag said:

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Athanasius said:

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Quote:

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Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

26 Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Get up and go toward the south[a] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a wilderness road.) 27 So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over to this chariot and join it." 30 So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth."

34 The eunuch asked Philip, "About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?" 35 Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. 36 As they were going along the road, they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?"[b] 38 He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip[c] baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

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He's reading prophecy and one that literally very few people understood was being fulfilled. I'm not seeing how that supports the notion the Gospel message needs "someone to guide them"? The Gospels aren't obscure foretelling of Jesus Christ, they are the explicit account of Jesus Christ and the way to salvation.

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So I am curious as to how you define salvation.

Views on circumcision and eating pork?

People actually believe they eat Jesus flesh?