PabloSerna said:

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Chief - I have heard their "reflection" not "homily" - yes.

I don't have a problem with the permission granted to have this on Father's Day in a church that has a reputation for being active in these matters. They are very clear that their situation is different, radical inclusion, from other parishes. I think the part that resonated with me was that they tried for a very long time to "pray the gay away." Imagine that. They prayed and remained the same. It should be a reminder that even the Catechism states that the origins of homosexual orientation remain unexplained. There is so much we don't know.

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ChiefHaus said:

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As for prayer, God does not remove temptation because we pray for a very long time. We must control our desires, not make excuses for them. Cling to the truth as it always has been and quit trying to find out more of "what we don't know." That's literally how Adam and Eve fell from the Garden. We know enough to be held accountable for our decisions.

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PabloSerna said:

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This Sunday's gospel had me thinking... (Mt 20: 1-16a)

'Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.'
When those who had started about five o'clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
'These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day's burden and the heat.'
He said to one of them in reply,
'My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?'
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last."

+++

Trying to compare the commandment against adultery to one's sexual orientation is apples to oranges. However, I believe that some here would think it really is just a matter of self control. This way of thinking ignores something deeper and more profound (in my opinion).your opinion is wrong.

Are we are missing the fact that these gay men had never felt at home in God's house given their sexual orientation? As they witnessed, they tried desperately to "pray the gay away" only to come to the understanding that this was who they are- homosexual persons. They are persons. Subject to temptations as all of us are. To make that temptation part of their identity is a disservice to their dignityAs has already been researched, there is no gay gene. In fact the "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" (CCC 2357).

I bring up the gospel parable of the workers in the vineyard, because it sheds light on the broader mercy God has for all mankind. He sees beyond the limits of time, circumstance, and, I would add, sexual orientation; God sees how things should have been all along had original sin not entered the world. So when it came to paying the workers he paid them what should have been (a daily wage) instead of what they did (an hour). Leave it to God to make whole what was lacking before.

It would seem that self mastery, is the only way. as it is for all of us Gay persons wishing to live in a committed relationship as these two men have, raise adopted children,children that deserve a mother and a father, not two dads live productive lives, and seek to worship God in church - is like cheating! Not allowed.

I believe it is because we have lumped a person's sexual orientation in with other dishonorable passions (adultery, prostitution, rape, etc.) so it's treated like any other proclivity to sinall of which have a complementary virtue to each vice. Chastity is the virtue the Church promotes as the way for people who are homosexual. it promotes this for all people. I have a wife, I am called to chastity just as much as a person suffering from a disordered same sex attraction Imagine loving someone exclusivelywhy is this love exclusive. What is it ordered to? It certainly isn't ordered to procreation. And don't give me this "procreative and unitive" nonsense where you twist the words of JPII and attempt to separate what is inseparable by creating out of whole cloth some solely unitive corruption of intercourse but are unable to physically act on this feeling, this passion. St. Paul writes (1 Cor 7:9) "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Only if you are heterosexual it would seem.

As I read and contemplate this condition (homosexual), I don't feel the same as some here do about the best way being only self mastery through the virtue of chastity.These "some " you don't feel the same as are citing millennia of magisterium that you ignore I believe it is that and more. For heterosexual persons called to the vocation of marriage- the path is straight forward, all spelled out. Full sacramental life in the church and holy matrimony. For homosexual persons called to an exclusive loving and committed relationship? Only path is to practice self control and seek Christian perfection through the virtues -alone.Not alone. Just not with a partner that is a constant near occasion of sin

What we are telling gay people is that the way they choose to love each other is sinful.we tell them that because it is the truth, if their relationship involves a sexual component I wonder sometimes if men marrying a woman instead of "burning with passion" is any better?It is better. Infinitely better. It is one of the two vocations we are called to. The lesser of the two, but one of the only two

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PabloSerna said:

---

This Sunday's gospel had me thinking... (Mt 20: 1-16a)

'Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.'
When those who had started about five o'clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
'These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day's burden and the heat.'
He said to one of them in reply,
'My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?'
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last."

+++

Trying to compare the commandment against adultery to one's sexual orientation is apples to oranges. However, I believe that some here would think it really is just a matter of self control. This way of thinking ignores something deeper and more profound (in my opinion).

Are we are missing the fact that these gay men had never felt at home in God's house given their sexual orientation? As they witnessed, they tried desperately to "pray the gay away" only to come to the understanding that this was who they are- homosexual persons. As has already been researched, there is no gay gene. In fact the "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" (CCC 2357).

I bring up the gospel parable of the workers in the vineyard, because it sheds light on the broader mercy God has for all mankind. He sees beyond the limits of time, circumstance, and, I would add, sexual orientation; God sees how things should have been all along had original sin not entered the world. So when it came to paying the workers he paid them what should have been (a daily wage) instead of what they did (an hour). Leave it to God to make whole what was lacking before.

It would seem that self mastery, is the only way. Gay persons wishing to live in a committed relationship as these two men have, raise adopted children, live productive lives, and seek to worship God in church - is like cheating! Not allowed.

I believe it is because we have lumped a person's sexual orientation in with other dishonorable passions (adultery, prostitution, rape, etc.) all of which have a complementary virtue to each vice. Chastity is the virtue the Church promotes as the way for people who are homosexual. Imagine loving someone exclusively but are unable to physically act on this feeling, this passion. St. Paul writes (1 Cor 7:9) "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Only if you are heterosexual it would seem.

As I read and contemplate this condition (homosexual), I don't feel the same as some here do about the best way being only self mastery through the virtue of chastity. I believe it is that and more. For heterosexual persons called to the vocation of marriage- the path is straight forward, all spelled out. Full sacramental life in the church and holy matrimony. For homosexual persons called to an exclusive loving and committed relationship? Only path is to practice self control and seek Christian perfection through the virtues -alone.

What we are telling gay people is that the way they choose to love each other is sinful. I wonder sometimes if men marrying a woman instead of "burning with passion" is any better?

---

PabloSerna said:

---

"They are persons. Subject to temptations as all of us are. To make that temptation part of their identity is a disservice to their dignity"

+++

What is your explanation of homosexual persons? Just so we can start off with a basis.

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PabloSerna said:

---

"They are persons. Subject to temptations as all of us are. To make that temptation part of their identity is a disservice to their dignity"

+++

What is your explanation of homosexual persons? Just so we can start off with a basis.

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PabloSerna said:

---

Can you two be more specific? Are these desires purely a matter of will or something else? Physiological? Biology/Genetics? Just want to understand your basis.

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747Ag said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

This Sunday's gospel had me thinking... (Mt 20: 1-16a)

'Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.'
When those who had started about five o'clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
'These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day's burden and the heat.'
He said to one of them in reply,
'My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?'
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last."

+++

Trying to compare the commandment against adultery to one's sexual orientation is apples to oranges. However, I believe that some here would think it really is just a matter of self control. This way of thinking ignores something deeper and more profound (in my opinion).

Are we are missing the fact that these gay men had never felt at home in God's house given their sexual orientation? As they witnessed, they tried desperately to "pray the gay away" only to come to the understanding that this was who they are- homosexual persons. As has already been researched, there is no gay gene. In fact the "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" (CCC 2357).

I bring up the gospel parable of the workers in the vineyard, because it sheds light on the broader mercy God has for all mankind. He sees beyond the limits of time, circumstance, and, I would add, sexual orientation; God sees how things should have been all along had original sin not entered the world. So when it came to paying the workers he paid them what should have been (a daily wage) instead of what they did (an hour). Leave it to God to make whole what was lacking before.

It would seem that self mastery, is the only way. Gay persons wishing to live in a committed relationship as these two men have, raise adopted children, live productive lives, and seek to worship God in church - is like cheating! Not allowed.

I believe it is because we have lumped a person's sexual orientation in with other dishonorable passions (adultery, prostitution, rape, etc.) all of which have a complementary virtue to each vice. Chastity is the virtue the Church promotes as the way for people who are homosexual. Imagine loving someone exclusively but are unable to physically act on this feeling, this passion. St. Paul writes (1 Cor 7:9) "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Only if you are heterosexual it would seem.

As I read and contemplate this condition (homosexual), I don't feel the same as some here do about the best way being only self mastery through the virtue of chastity. I believe it is that and more. For heterosexual persons called to the vocation of marriage- the path is straight forward, all spelled out. Full sacramental life in the church and holy matrimony. For homosexual persons called to an exclusive loving and committed relationship? Only path is to practice self control and seek Christian perfection through the virtues -alone.

What we are telling gay people is that the way they choose to love each other is sinful. I wonder sometimes if men marrying a woman instead of "burning with passion" is any better?

---

This bears repeating.
Contraception, self abuse, adultery, fornication, and homosexual acts fail to be virtuous for the same basic reason... that they offend against the ends of marriage. No parsing of words changes this. No so-called new learning changes this. Pushing for something else is a deviation from the moral teachings of Holy Church and is moral heresy.

Much of the protestations against the Church's moral theology sounds like "but it isn't fair." Probably isn't, but life isn't fair. The circumstances we've been dealt do not change the call to holiness and the call to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him. And I concede that SSA and gender dysphoria are tremendous crosses to bear. And at the same time a tremendous opportunity for sanctity. Yet most often it's a missed opportunity.

All this rhetoric around the synod on the various topics follows this same pattern. People and prelates clamoring for Holy Mother Church to ratify their favorite sins. Churchmen entertaining said ideas in the name of listening. Yet the Church is Mater et Magistra. So She must be Mother and Teacher. The teachings will not change. Anything that may come from Rome that contradicts said teachings is heretical and schismatic.

Our Lady of Fatima warned: "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." It's time that we repent, deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him.

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

747Ag said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

This Sunday's gospel had me thinking... (Mt 20: 1-16a)

'Summon the laborers and give them their pay,
beginning with the last and ending with the first.'
When those who had started about five o'clock came,
each received the usual daily wage.
So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more,
but each of them also got the usual wage.
And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying,
'These last ones worked only one hour,
and you have made them equal to us,
who bore the day's burden and the heat.'
He said to one of them in reply,
'My friend, I am not cheating you.
Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage?
Take what is yours and go.
What if I wish to give this last one the same as you?
Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?
Are you envious because I am generous?'
Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last."

+++

Trying to compare the commandment against adultery to one's sexual orientation is apples to oranges. However, I believe that some here would think it really is just a matter of self control. This way of thinking ignores something deeper and more profound (in my opinion).

Are we are missing the fact that these gay men had never felt at home in God's house given their sexual orientation? As they witnessed, they tried desperately to "pray the gay away" only to come to the understanding that this was who they are- homosexual persons. As has already been researched, there is no gay gene. In fact the "psychological genesis remains largely unexplained" (CCC 2357).

I bring up the gospel parable of the workers in the vineyard, because it sheds light on the broader mercy God has for all mankind. He sees beyond the limits of time, circumstance, and, I would add, sexual orientation; God sees how things should have been all along had original sin not entered the world. So when it came to paying the workers he paid them what should have been (a daily wage) instead of what they did (an hour). Leave it to God to make whole what was lacking before.

It would seem that self mastery, is the only way. Gay persons wishing to live in a committed relationship as these two men have, raise adopted children, live productive lives, and seek to worship God in church - is like cheating! Not allowed.

I believe it is because we have lumped a person's sexual orientation in with other dishonorable passions (adultery, prostitution, rape, etc.) all of which have a complementary virtue to each vice. Chastity is the virtue the Church promotes as the way for people who are homosexual. Imagine loving someone exclusively but are unable to physically act on this feeling, this passion. St. Paul writes (1 Cor 7:9) "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Only if you are heterosexual it would seem.

As I read and contemplate this condition (homosexual), I don't feel the same as some here do about the best way being only self mastery through the virtue of chastity. I believe it is that and more. For heterosexual persons called to the vocation of marriage- the path is straight forward, all spelled out. Full sacramental life in the church and holy matrimony. For homosexual persons called to an exclusive loving and committed relationship? Only path is to practice self control and seek Christian perfection through the virtues -alone.

What we are telling gay people is that the way they choose to love each other is sinful. I wonder sometimes if men marrying a woman instead of "burning with passion" is any better?

---

This bears repeating.
Contraception, self abuse, adultery, fornication, and homosexual acts fail to be virtuous for the same basic reason... that they offend against the ends of marriage. No parsing of words changes this. No so-called new learning changes this. Pushing for something else is a deviation from the moral teachings of Holy Church and is moral heresy.

Much of the protestations against the Church's moral theology sounds like "but it isn't fair." Probably isn't, but life isn't fair. The circumstances we've been dealt do not change the call to holiness and the call to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him. And I concede that SSA and gender dysphoria are tremendous crosses to bear. And at the same time a tremendous opportunity for sanctity. Yet most often it's a missed opportunity.

All this rhetoric around the synod on the various topics follows this same pattern. People and prelates clamoring for Holy Mother Church to ratify their favorite sins. Churchmen entertaining said ideas in the name of listening. Yet the Church is Mater et Magistra. So She must be Mother and Teacher. The teachings will not change. Anything that may come from Rome that contradicts said teachings is heretical and schismatic.

Our Lady of Fatima warned: "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." It's time that we repent, deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him.

---

While I completely agree that it is apparent in scripture that homosexuality is verboten, it is interesting that some of the same acts we consider homosexual 'acts' are also sinful among married heterosexual couples. So there are certainly sexual deviations hetero couples must resist

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PabloSerna said:

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"That any biological or physiological differences are accidental"

Is that what you want to go with? Because it would seem that there are no accidents when it comes to God. Also, lets drop the different creatures angle, you are the only one taking such position. I have already cited a study that there is no such "gay gene" - let's move on.

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PabloSerna said:

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What do you believe? God creates accidentally or that he knew us while we were still in our mother's womb?

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PabloSerna said:

---

"That any biological or physiological differences are accidental"

Is that what you want to go with? Because it would seem that there are no accidents when it comes to God. Also, lets drop the different creatures angle, you are the only one taking such position. I have already cited a study that there is no such "gay gene" - let's move on.

+++

Do you think science can help our understanding? Because it seems to me that the scriptures are really talking about sexual violence and human exploitation.

It seems to me that we (heterosexual Christians) are tunnel visioned when it comes to meaningful, committed relationships - strictly opposite sexes only. How many sexual encounters would estimate King Solomon had over the course of his life? So that is good and two women committed to each other for 30+ years is evil?

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PabloSerna said:

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Bob Lee said:

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PabloSerna said:

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"That any biological or physiological differences are accidental"

Is that what you want to go with? Because it would seem that there are no accidents when it comes to God. Also, lets drop the different creatures angle, you are the only one taking such position. I have already cited a study that there is no such "gay gene" - let's move on.

---

Accidental as opposed to essential differences. Meaning gay men are still just men and human. Whatever the reason is for their gayness holds no bearing on whether or not homosexual acts are in keeping with God's law.

Your argument always comes down to the appropriateness of certain acts in light of this accidental attribute, which is what implies a difference in kind (an essential difference) and not just an accidental difference. You'd never argue that God's law has different applications for red heads or people with freckles, or with one arm or something. Right?

---

Exactly.

Now you are starting to see my point, I would hope. First, let's clear up marriage. It can only be between one man and one woman. None of the Bishops, theologians, Fr. Martin, are calling for same sex marriage - because there is no such thing.

Second, what is being questioned is the nature of homosexuality. If you think we fully understand this- you are mistaken. Even the Church in the Catechism states this clearly. I am merely projecting from there. I understand the current teaching and I am talking to homosexual couples - it seems lacking.

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PabloSerna said:

---

"That any biological or physiological differences are accidental"

Is that what you want to go with? Because it would seem that there are no accidents when it comes to God. Also, lets drop the different creatures angle, you are the only one taking such position. I have already cited a study that there is no such "gay gene" - let's move on.

+++

Do you think science can help our understanding? Because it seems to me that the scriptures are really talking about sexual violence and human exploitation.

It seems to me that we (heterosexual Christians) are tunnel visioned when it comes to meaningful, committed relationships - strictly opposite sexes only. How many sexual encounters would estimate King Solomon had over the course of his life? So that is good and two women committed to each other for 30+ years is evil?

---

PabloSerna said:

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I will check it out, thank you. However, to be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to change the church's teachings- just make them more available to all people.

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PabloSerna said:

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3 minutes in and he leads of with this...

2:14 "At the point I entered the seminary I was 18 years old pretty addicted to pornography, and um, sexual sin. And when I got into the seminary I started getting into more deviant behavior, acting out with gay prostitutes in Philadelphia living this duplicity life in the seminary."

For some reason I thought this was going to be about long term, committed same sex relationships.. Oh well..

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PabloSerna said:

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The comment section is a complete echo chamber and astounding to say the least!

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