TheBonifaceOption said:

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dermdoc said:

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Couple of things. John Piper is a five point Calvinist so I assume he believes in double predestination. By that theology, his son Abraham is either predestined to be elect or not. So it is up to God, not Piper, what the eternal destiny of Abraham is. And if we get rid of every Christian leader with rebellious kids, we are going to lose a lot of preachers, deacons, etc.

Secondly, I do not think that I have the ability to know who is "going to hell" or not. That is not my call and I believe is based on the decision of every individual whether they accept or reject God. I do not know their heart.

Thirdly, you sure seem to like to judge other people a lot.

Fourthly, I believe Scripture is pretty clear everyone is resurrected.

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1) So?! You disregard the immutable Word of God on eldership requirements because the current crop of elders are sooo bad that they cant maintain the requisites, ergo we must keep them? That's about as bassackwards as you can get.

2) And that's because you have no ecclesiastical authority. Man, those who were not Christ himself, --sinful men-- absolutely declared anathema on individuals who distorted the Gospel. Read Galatians, its sitting right there for you. In fact for 2000 years the church has been excommunicating individuals who refuse to comport to the standards of orthodoxy, read 2 Thessalonians 3, its right there for you. The apostle Paul delegates the ability and authority to judge congregants on their inclusion in the body of Christ.

"you dont know their hearts." Look, Thessalonica is *chef's kiss.* If you read Acts you see how the church at Thessalonica was founded. Paul was only in the city for a short time, the Jews started a mob and Paul had to flee, the converts were fined and beaten. Paul writes the first letter. Then he hears back, then he writes the second letter. The context of 2 Thess 3 is that there were those who confessed Christ with their lips, they may have even endured the persecution from the world in Christ's name, they even had the best attendance (they were waiting for the 2nd coming, day and night). But Paul judged them as idle and despite "what they had in their hearts" and despite "what they professed" Paul STILL judged them for excommunication--if they refused to act in the ways he had given the church.

3) Im sorry I follow the instructions of the Lord. There are no crowns in heaven for being naive. Do you really want me to give you the dozens of imperatives for the church to judge and discern and to be shrewd? No. You wouldnt want that because it would go to war with the idol you old in your heart: Harmonia. She is your god.

4) Yes the unbeliever will get stand before God's judgement. But they are not in Christ, visavis Col 1:15-23 whereas Christ is firstborn of the resurrection and the reconciliation for believers. In fact, that passage details that one must endure in the faith to receive such inheritance.

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So do you have ecclesiastical authority?

And may I ask you what is your theology/denomination?

You agree now (as opposed to your original post) that all will be resurrected, correct?

And believers will be saved, even if in your opinion, they need church discipline? Remember we are on the same side.

And you severely misrepresented my point in number one. If you are a Calvinist, and believe in double predestination due to TULIP, how can Piper or any father be responsible for the salvation of their kids?

God has already pre ordained who will be saved and who will not, correct? I could not have children if I believed in Calvinist doctrines and think I had the chance to father a child that would be subject to ECT hell and I could do nothing about it.

Now you can discipline a pastor/elder on their own actions, but not on their kids.

And with Calvinism, would that not suggest the pastor was not truly of the elect?

Very interesting theology there.

And I agree with you what the Bible says about discipline of leaders based on the actions of their families. That is not in line with Calvinism which is my point.

It's very simple God has elected whom He has elected. He has also commanded that the requirement of eldership be a believing household. Those who fail to catechize their household properly are disqualified from eldership because their household is a proof of HOW they teach a congregation:

1 Tim 3:5 "for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church"

Holding to election and holding to 1 Tim 3 are not incompatible. If Piper had any integrity whatsoever he would step down because his failure to raise his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord is PRECISELY the disqualifier Paul wrote to Timothy.

I think you have a misconception that calvinist wash their hands of things and say "well God will make it happen regardless of me." No, God makes things happen through His work of Providence which include Christians adhering to His commands.

A Christian who fails to tell his children the Gospel should have zero expectation that the child will serve God. --shouldnt that be an obvious statement?

While I'm no Presbyterian, the Westminster Catechism question 3 is very very helpful for all.

Q: what do the Scriptures principally teach?
A: The Scriptures principally teach what man is to be believe concerning God and what duty God requires of man.

Understanding those two uses of Scripture make the fundamental framework of Chrsitian religion. 1) what you are to know about God, 2) what is required of man.

Piper, and all fathers, are to raise their children with the Word of God, prayer, baptism, and communion. While parents cannot imbue faith into their children, parents can nurture the seed of faith and keep it from the birds and the briars.

Somewhere in his development Abraham Piper was not receiving biblical instruction, his father wasn't praying with him, his father was not reading him the Bible and explaining it to the 10yo properly.

God ordains the means and the ends, fella. Saying Piper reading his son the Bible has no effect if Abraham is a reprobate is nonsense. It's the same false logic hurled at Calvinists saying "well stop preaching the Gospel because their salvation is predetermined."

The WSC mentions love plenty. The fact that you dismiss a document because it doesn't give you the answer you expect from a KLOVE dj tells me youre not a serious student of these things.

And I never said I dismissed anything.

Have you read Calvin's basic institutes where he affirms his belief in double predestination?

I agree with everything you have posted. Your posts are different than Calvinism theologically.

And I personally do not care as long as someone knows the Lord which obviously you do.

But double predestination really impugns God's character in my opinion.

Good discussion from the puritan forum who are Calvinists
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/love-as-attribute-of-god-not-mentioned-in-l-s-catechism.75576/

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/the-various-gifts-of-the-holy-spirit-part-two/11-what-is-the-gift-of-showing-mercy.cfm

Interesting article.

canadiaggie said:

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Always been a weird observation to me that divorce is forbidden in Christianity but is widely accepted in Western countries, while divorce is permitted in Islam and is social suicide in the Middle East, Pakistan, etc.

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I'd imagine this is 100% explained by the difference in female economic power in Europe/US vs Middle East/Pakistan.

dermdoc said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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God ordains the means and the ends, fella. Saying Piper reading his son the Bible has no effect if Abraham is a reprobate is nonsense. It's the same false logic hurled at Calvinists saying "well stop preaching the Gospel because their salvation is predetermined."

The WSC mentions love plenty. The fact that you dismiss a document because it doesn't give you the answer you expect from a KLOVE dj tells me youre not a serious student of these things.

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You sure like to judge a lot. I read all the time. What did I say that was inaccurate about Calvinism? Total depravity unless they are elect is what the theology says.

Am I misreading? Or are you changing the theology? And the Calvinists I know are some of the best Christian witnesses I know. But they do not follow Calvinist theology strictly either as far as strict double predestination. They focus more on grace and "once saved always saved".

And "fella". C'mon man. Fruits of the Spirit.

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You don't follow the imperatives to judge at all. "Or do you not know the saints will judge the world?...Do you not know we shall judge the angels?" 1 Cor 6.

"The fruit of the spirit" ROFL my kids memorized that by age 4....and "mercy" ain't there fella.

File5 said:

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It is his business - he married into the family, and the FIL is his future children's grandfather. Grandpa's legacy will impact them, and they'll ask why Grandpa didn't stay with Grandma and then wonder if marriage is for life or not. This is exactly why we have family - to set us straight when we err. The "how" is another matter entirely, but I 100% support an intervention here.

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If he claims to be a believer, then correction even from a SIL is biblical in every sense. If somebody is breaking their marriage vows, I personally don't GAC about their feelings on being around their grandchildren.

Personally if my parent or in-laws divorce, I'd tell the person who instigated it that they can expect to never see their grandkids again on Holidays. They're both in their 70s so i think im in the clear. . I absolutely hate traveling to see people or having family over at Christmas and you making that a 3 stop trip now guarantees I won't be coming by.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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God ordains the means and the ends, fella. Saying Piper reading his son the Bible has no effect if Abraham is a reprobate is nonsense. It's the same false logic hurled at Calvinists saying "well stop preaching the Gospel because their salvation is predetermined."

The WSC mentions love plenty. The fact that you dismiss a document because it doesn't give you the answer you expect from a KLOVE dj tells me youre not a serious student of these things.

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You sure like to judge a lot. I read all the time. What did I say that was inaccurate about Calvinism? Total depravity unless they are elect is what the theology says.

Am I misreading? Or are you changing the theology? And the Calvinists I know are some of the best Christian witnesses I know. But they do not follow Calvinist theology strictly either as far as strict double predestination. They focus more on grace and "once saved always saved".

And "fella". C'mon man. Fruits of the Spirit.

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You don't follow the imperatives to judge at all. "Or do you not know the saints will judge the world?...Do you not know we shall judge the angels?" 1 Cor 6.

"The fruit of the spirit" ROFL my kids memorized that by age 4....and "mercy" ain't there fella.

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Did your kids memorize Romans 12 6-8 also? Did you even read the link? And as the Scripture implies, I was saying that mercy was my spiritual gift. When I talked about the fruits of the Spirit, I was talking about your condescending reply to me. So I was judging you on your posts.

And judgement is fine. When combined with mercy.

We need both in the body of Christ. That is why God gave me the spiritual gift of mercy as stated in Romans.

And judgement is not listed in the fruits of the Spirit either. Or in Romans 12 6-8 about the gifts of the Spirit.

Shalom.

c-jags said:

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File5 said:

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It is his business - he married into the family, and the FIL is his future children's grandfather. Grandpa's legacy will impact them, and they'll ask why Grandpa didn't stay with Grandma and then wonder if marriage is for life or not. This is exactly why we have family - to set us straight when we err. The "how" is another matter entirely, but I 100% support an intervention here.

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If he claims to be a believer, then correction even from a SIL is biblical in every sense. If somebody is breaking their marriage vows, I personally don't GAC about their feelings on being around their grandchildren.

Personally if my parent or in-laws divorce, I'd tell the person who instigated it that they can expect to never see their grandkids again on Holidays. They're both in their 70s so i think im in the clear. . I absolutely hate traveling to see people or having family over at Christmas and you making that a 3 stop trip now guarantees I won't be coming by.

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So you'd deny grandparents visits with grandkids on just holidays? Or all days?

Very loving and forgiving of you.

dermdoc said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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dermdoc said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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God ordains the means and the ends, fella. Saying Piper reading his son the Bible has no effect if Abraham is a reprobate is nonsense. It's the same false logic hurled at Calvinists saying "well stop preaching the Gospel because their salvation is predetermined."

The WSC mentions love plenty. The fact that you dismiss a document because it doesn't give you the answer you expect from a KLOVE dj tells me youre not a serious student of these things.

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You sure like to judge a lot. I read all the time. What did I say that was inaccurate about Calvinism? Total depravity unless they are elect is what the theology says.

Am I misreading? Or are you changing the theology? And the Calvinists I know are some of the best Christian witnesses I know. But they do not follow Calvinist theology strictly either as far as strict double predestination. They focus more on grace and "once saved always saved".

And "fella". C'mon man. Fruits of the Spirit.

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You don't follow the imperatives to judge at all. "Or do you not know the saints will judge the world?...Do you not know we shall judge the angels?" 1 Cor 6.

"The fruit of the spirit" ROFL my kids memorized that by age 4....and "mercy" ain't there fella.

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Did your kids memorize Romans 12 6-8 also? Did you even read the link? And as the Scripture implies, I was saying that mercy was my spiritual gift. When I talked about the fruits of the Spirit, I was talking about your condescending reply to me. So I was judging you on your posts.

And judgement is fine. When combined with mercy.

We need both in the body of Christ. That is why God gave me the spiritual gift of mercy as stated in Romans.

And judgement is not listed in the fruits of the Spirit either. Or in Romans 12 6-8 about the gifts of the Spirit.

Shalom.

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Good post, dermfella!

This is how I picture some of y'all

John 13:35 indeed

Captain Pablo said:

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This is how I picture some of y'all

John 13:35 indeed

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I have been Deacon chair twice at a Baptist church and head of just about every committee (personnel committee chair was brutal).

Have learned to work with all types as we are all brothers/sisters in Christ. All of us have different spiritual gifts.

And not hard at all for me to say I am wrong.

What is interesting in this exchange is that I have repeatedly said I agreed with most of what the other poster posted.

All I did was say it was not Calvinism theology being espoused.

Go read Calvin's Institute #21.

And weird but Calvin's Institutes are over 1500 pages long. And the word love is never mentioned. Even though in 1 John it says in a very straight forward way that God is love. To my knowledge, there is no Scripture that says God is wrath.

Sure I will be accused of being a Christian "liberal" when all I am doing is trying to figure out what Scripture and tradition are actually teaching us. Which actually is very conservative.

Oy vey.

Whatever you decide to do remember to love him. God does. Too many times the divorced are ostracized, judged and left on the scrap heap of life. God, the Father, keeps looking for those who are lost to come home.

As said above, he will be the grandfather of your children. How you model your relationship with him is how your kids will.

dermdoc said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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This is how I picture some of y'all

John 13:35 indeed

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I have been Deacon chair twice at a Baptist church and head of just about every committee (personnel committee chair was brutal).

Have learned to work with all types as we are all brothers/sisters in Christ. All of us have different spiritual gifts.

And not hard at all for me to say I am wrong.

What is interesting in this exchange is that I have repeatedly said I agreed with most of what the other poster posted.

All I did was say it was not Calvinism theology being espoused.

Go read Calvin's Institute #21.

And weird but Calvin's Institutes are over 1500 pages long. And the word love is never mentioned. Even though in 1 John it says in a very straight forward way that God is love. To my knowledge, there is no Scripture that says God is wrath.

Sure I will be accused of being a Christian "liberal" when all I am doing is trying to figure out what Scripture and tradition are actually teaching us. Which actually is very conservative.

Oy vey.

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Captain Pablo said:

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This is how I picture some of y'all

John 13:35 indeed

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Or John 17:24
John 15:9
John 16:12
1 Corinthians 13
1 John
I could go on a long time.
How could a theologian like Calvin write over 1500 pages and never mention love?

I don't have to deal with this personally but I'm trying to think how I would do it if it came up.

Right now my best guess is that I would have a long talk with the the person (s) pushing for the divorce can't explain to my kids that they're not ever to explain that the divorce is a good thing to the kids. If they can't do that then they shouldn't be able to be around them I'm thinking. At the same time I'll be teaching my kids that divorce is not good and God does not will that for anyone.

There is definitely a trade-off between being kind to the divorced folks and making sure that your children are raised correctly without bad influence. Would like to hear what other people's thoughts are on it practically speaking

Jesus loved everyone around him. He spent more time washing the feet of the poor and beaten down than the religious leaders of the time. Today, way too many Christians have become the Pharasees. Legalistic, judgemental and so willing to tell everyone how it should be without worrying about what is in their own eye. I want to write a book called The Hijacking of Jesus.. This thread is depressing.

Sin draws humans into the selfish need to be part of a group and point fingers at everyone else. It causes Christians to be drawn to the Old Testament more than the New Testament. Grace, love and forgiveness are way less fun than the I have the answers and you don't games.

Bearpitbull said:

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Jesus loved everyone around him. He spent more time washing the feet of the poor and beaten down than the religious leaders of the time. Today, way too many Christians have become the Pharasees. Legalistic, judgemental and so willing to tell everyone how it should be without worrying about what is in their own eye. I want to write a book called The Hijacking of Jesus.. This thread is depressing.

Sin draws humans into the selfish need to be part of a group and point fingers at everyone else. It causes Christians to be drawn to the Old Testament more than the New Testament. Grace, love and forgiveness are way less fun than the I have the answers and you don't games.

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A W Tozer famously stated that "What comes into our mind when we think about God is the most important thing about us".

If your thought of God is a judge mental, wrathful God then you will reflect that.

If your thought of God is a loving, merciful God then you will reflect that.

Tozer was a wise man..

Captain Pablo said:

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File5 said:

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I don't have to deal with this personally but I'm trying to think how I would do it if it came up.

Right now my best guess is that I would have a long talk with the the person (s) pushing for the divorce can't explain to my kids that they're not ever to explain that the divorce is a good thing to the kids. If they can't do that then they shouldn't be able to be around them I'm thinking. At the same time I'll be teaching my kids that divorce is not good and God does not will that for anyone.

There is definitely a trade-off between being kind to the divorced folks and making sure that your children are raised correctly without bad influence. Would like to hear what other people's thoughts are on it practically speaking

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As a practical matter? Well, since you asked,

I think you should treat them as you would want to be treated when you do stupid stuff. And be honest with yourself. We all do stupid stuff. Show a little grace

And I'm going to be quite honest, but the notion that a so-called Christian would withhold grandchildren from a divorced grandparent is patently absurd, mean spirited, and bears absolutely no resemblance to the kind of love we are commanded to show one another.

You are a smart guy. And I'm sure, you are a good parent that is smart enough to figure a way to instill Christian values in your kids without casting aside the grandparents that not only live their grand child, but are directly responsible for your child even existing

It's really not that hard.

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Agree. And children watch what you do a lot more than listen to what you say.

My dad always told me that if you followed the Golden Rule and didn't lie you did not have to remember what you did or said.