Gomer95 said:

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Well all through history since Christ Christianity has had people trying to discredit or disprove it and it has all been unsuccessful because it is true and I understand yes if I was just blindly saying "this is true because well I just BELIEVE IT…END OF STORY" then that would be similar to what all religions do BUT not only do I have a personal experience of how Jesus has changed my life forever and for the better, I did investigate lots of questions about Christianity and its past and origins just like any follower of any religion should do when I first started inquiring about it and then ultimately became a follower of Christ.

For the Christian, the ultimate expression of truth is found in the person of Jesus who said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through me…" (John 14:6). Jesus, who claimed to be divine, performed many miracles, and rose from the dead said that he alone was the Truth. He was either right or wrong. There is no in-between. If Jesus is wrong, then Christianity is wrong. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we should abandon our faith because he would be no different than anyone else. If Jesus is not God in flesh, then we should denounce him as a madman because you can't claim to be God and be sane unless the claim is true. Therefore, if what Jesus said about himself is true, then Christianity is true.

Did Jesus fail to rise from the dead? If so, why could no one produce the body? Were the eyewitnesses of his resurrection really conspirators and liars? Then how did they concoct such a lie based on eyewitness accounts that could have been verified at that time? We have no historical refutations of the gospel claims. Why would people invent such a story that they knew would probably cost them their lives? Why would Paul, of Pharisees sent to destroy Christianity, suddenly convert and state that his conversion was based upon the appearance of the resurrected Christ? The answer to these questions is best found by believing that Jesus was who he said he was, performed miracles, and rose from the dead.
You see, Christianity is only as true as Jesus is true. If it can be shown that Jesus lied, failed to perform miracles, was not God in flesh, and did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is false and we are deceived.

So I agree with you we SHOULD look for evidence concerning our religion we follow and even though I didn't mention it above, there is a lot of historical evidence that backs up a lot of what the Bible says about the times, the people, the culture, etc. and it's not all made up. So to answer your question yes I have faith in what Jesus did in the cross for my and everyone else's Salvation and that he rose from the dead and was seen by over 500 verified witnesses of the day AFTER they had all seen him crucified and die. It's amazing feat yes that only the Lord could do and that's why it has made such an impact on so many people worldwide and is still going strong 2000 years later. So yes I base my beliefs on Faith AND evidence and we should always do that to see if it is true and if it is, it will stand up to those tests.

Hope this all makes sense and yes like you said I'm not trying to be judgmental or anything but just trying to help you understand how I arrived at my decision. I can tell you 150% it has changed my life for all eternity! And it open to anyone who asks and wants to follow Jesus! Glad we can talk about it!

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I appreciate your account of how and why you believe. But, I'm not sure it really gets to my core point of willingness to question your base presuppositions. I believe that a strong religious faith should be compatible with enough humility and willingness to admit we are wrong (and not just about small stuff). Unfortunately, I think a hallmark of a successful religion is the requirement of an unearned and prideful certainty of one's own correctness. A religion that says "Here is what we think is correct, but lets keep an open mind" does not survive. A religion that says "We know absolute objective truth and the mind of God, all other religions are wicked demonic influence." does survive. Similar criticisms can be made of many atheists.

Another hallmark of religion is how it spreads and passes down. 30% of the world is Christian, 25% Muslim, 15% Hindu, etc. etc. If you or I had been born decades ago in Iran, there is a near 100% probability that we would today be Muslims explaining why Islam is correct by citing personal experience, historicity, and circular arguments within the Quran. The accident of when and where we are born is a near perfect predictor for what someone will believe. And if that doesn't cause us to stop and doubt our own beliefs, then I don't know what will.

Person 1 is a faithful Christian who believes that the accounts of the Bible are likely true and correct. Person 1 considers different faiths, different arguments, different presuppositions and is willing to change or amend what they believe based on new information. Even if that change is drastic and difficult.

Person 2 is a faithful Christian who knows the accounts of the Bible are definitely true and correct. Person 2 considers different faiths and presuppositions as either demonic or ill-guided and rejects any position or argument a priori that contradicts the Bible or church teaching.

Between person 1 and 2. Who is more humble? And who is more prideful?

I don't think any of this alien stuff is real. . . . but as a thought experiment - if we met aliens that had a religious tradition that might challenge your own, are you person 1 or 2?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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If no evidence will convince you that Christianity is false then your belief in Christianity is not evidence based and any new information gained from aliens (or otherwise) is irrelevant.

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I think Christianity is supported by evidence, but I wouldn't say that it is "evidence-based". I'm not really sure any religion could be entirely evidence based. Humans are not built to change their entire worldview on a dime. Even if there was such a religion, then you have the entirely new problem of "who decides what counts as evidence?" This problem was amply demonstrated in China during Mao's tenure. There was no religion but the "science" of communism. When the country was being wrecked by following the dogmatic Communist playbook in the Great Leap Forward, any contrary evidence showing the disaster suddenly disappeared as did the people trying to present such evidence.

I like the point above. If aliens come teaching peace, patience, love, self-sacrifice, charity, hope and justice, (like the Federation of Planets from Star Trek) then we can know they follow our God at least in a tangential way. If they come guns blazing, exploiting, enslaving and torturing (like pretty much anyone in Warharmmer 40k), then we know they are contrary to God. More likely, it will be a situation where they are so foreign to us that we don't even operate on the same moral playing field.

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Any belief system has some underlining claim that isn't evidence based. I am hoping to suggest that a difference between some belief systems has to do with a willingness to allow new evidence to challenge those underlining claims. And of course, I think that my belief system is more flexible and willing to submit itself to that scrutiny, and that is my bias.

As you said, humans are not built to change our worldviews on a dime. In some ways, this could be argued to be a 'flaw'. If Christianity is correct, this can explain why 70% of the world still rejects it. if a different religion is correct, it can explain why Christianity still persists. And if there is no good argument for any religion, it explains why there will always be religion in the world. We all cling to 'our ways'. And I say that there is humility and honesty in all of us recognizing this in ourselves.

Lets assume there are aliens with some radically religiously-upending information. . . . I think that if you asked most people "Would you want to learn about an alien religion and civilization knowing that it will debunk or radically change your current religious beliefs?" - Most people would answer 'no'. Would you agree? And if you do agree, what does that say about people?

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Lets assume there are aliens with some radically religiously-upending information. . . . I think that if you asked most people "Would you want to learn about an alien religion and civilization knowing that it will debunk or radically change your current religious beliefs?" - Most people would answer 'no'. Would you agree? And if you do agree, what does that say about people?

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I think you're probably right about that. Most people hate cognitive dissonance and actively avoid anything that challenges their preconceptions. I can't imagine information about extraterrestrials would be any different. As far as what that says about people, I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer. I think people just get comfortable with a worldview and then stop putting forth any effort on that front. It works, and they can live their daily lives without wasting mental energy on it. Having to constantly defend or reassess their worldview makes most people tired, angry, and even hostile. People just want to have their worldview, live their lives, and not be bothered too much about it.

After you posed the question, my brain instantly went to the "radically religiously-upending information" aspect, and I'm wracking my brain trying to think of what would qualify. Maybe some technology that allows people to communicate with the spirits of those already dead in some verifiable way? Maybe the ability to create new universes? Some fundamentally different understanding of death and consciousness? A time machine that can read the past and confirm, deny, or clarify historical events?

The disruptive information concerns the fact that et originated and maintains at least 3 major religions. Judism, Christianity and Islam.

IE...they are inert...

ramblin_ag02 said:

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After you posed the question, my brain instantly went to the "radically religiously-upending information" aspect, and I'm wracking my brain trying to think of what would qualify. Maybe some technology that allows people to communicate with the spirits of those already dead in some verifiable way? Maybe the ability to create new universes? Some fundamentally different understanding of death and consciousness? A time machine that can read the past and confirm, deny, or clarify historical events?

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I don't buy the et claims to begin with and so this really falls into the category of though experiment to me. And anything that I can think of that would fall into the 'radically religiously-upending' category seems pretty far fetched.

An alien civilization with a religion that is effectively identical to one of the human religions would be interesting. An alien civilization that has been observing humanity for thousands of years and has evidence of who religious figures actually were (either confirming or denying claims) could qualify. Another civilization with DNA that is identical enough to our own as to suggest our evolution was not random. . . . .

Dick Algire
Remote viewer
39 min- "its my understanding that the time is up for this current civilization and that its time to wrap up this show. And that a new civilization is going to be birthed -- it will be a difficult birth"

We'll, we had a good run.

kurt vonnegut said:

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We'll, we had a good run.

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Hopefully, we will continue that run. Things will be very different though. They must. This is a big moment in our "evolution". The slaves that built the pyramids knew. The Dogon tribe in Mali knew. The Hopi Indians knew. And numerous other cultures that speak of "sky gods", "star people" et. al. All knew. Doesn't take a rocket science to draw some potential conclusions.

Now, it's our turn... May be a bumpy ride. Those that seek to maintain the lie are not happy.

C.S. Lewis wrote a space trilogy, even though he affirmed
to the 39 articles. I'm glad on both counts that he did.

I wish Clive was alive today to witness this reality unfolding.

kurt vonnegut said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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After you posed the question, my brain instantly went to the "radically religiously-upending information" aspect, and I'm wracking my brain trying to think of what would qualify. Maybe some technology that allows people to communicate with the spirits of those already dead in some verifiable way? Maybe the ability to create new universes? Some fundamentally different understanding of death and consciousness? A time machine that can read the past and confirm, deny, or clarify historical events?

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I don't buy the et claims to begin with and so this really falls into the category of though experiment to me. And anything that I can think of that would fall into the 'radically religiously-upending' category seems pretty far fetched.

An alien civilization with a religion that is effectively identical to one of the human religions would be interesting. An alien civilization that has been observing humanity for thousands of years and has evidence of who religious figures actually were (either confirming or denying claims) could qualify. Another civilization with DNA that is identical enough to our own as to suggest our evolution was not random. . . . .

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Same on the thought experiment. I'm not holding my breathe. Good thoughts on the radical information possibilities

The security guard called and said, "Sir, there's a glowing red object hovering right outside the front gate. I've got all the men out here with their weapons drawn." We lost between 16-18 ICBMs (nuclear tipped Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles) at the same time UFOs were in the area… (A high-ranking Air Force officer) said, "Stop the investigation; do no more on this and do not write a final report. I heard that many of the guards that reported the incident were sent off to Vietnam." Captain Robert Salas, USAF, during a videotaped interview for the Disclosure program.

You made this identical post on the previous page. I'm not sure what you want or expect us to do with this information. Again, show me some dead aliens or a recovered flying 'tic-tac' and I'm in. Otherwise, its just people talking.

kurt vonnegut said:

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You made this identical post on the previous page. I'm not sure what you want or expect us to do with this information. Again, show me some dead aliens or a recovered flying 'tic-tac' and I'm in. Otherwise, its just people talking.

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Ponder it. We all want further confirmation.


"I would do it [study UFOs], but before agreeing to do it, we must insist upon full access to discs (EXTRATERRESTRIAL vehicle) recovered. For instance, in the L.A. case, the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination." J. Edgar Hoover-Director of FBI

The security guard called and said, "Sir, there's a glowing red object hovering right outside the front gate. I've got all the men out here with their weapons drawn." We lost between 16-18 ICBMs (nuclear tipped Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles) at the same time UFOs were in the area… (A high-ranking Air Force officer) said, "Stop the investigation; do no more on this and do not write a final report. I heard that many of the guards that reported the incident were sent off to Vietnam." Captain Robert Salas, USAF, during a videotaped interview for the Disclosure program.

"A few insiders know the truth...and are studying the bodies that have been discovered." -Dr. Edgar Mitchell Apollo 14..the 6th NASA employee to walk on the Moon.

"Maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs." CIA Director, Allen Dulles, 1955.

"It's still classified above Top Secret." - Senator Barry Goldwater, 1975

"Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense." Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.

"We alone cannot take credit for our technological advances,we have had help from people of other worlds". Dr. Herman Oberth, father of rocketry and aeronautics - American Weekly 1954

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false" -William Casey, CIA director, 1981

"Yes, there have been ET visitations. There have been crashed craft. There have been material and bodies recovered. There has been a certain amount of reverse engineering that has allowed some of these craft, or some components, to be duplicated. And there is some group of people that may or may not be associated with the government at this point that have this knowledge. They have been attempting to conceal this knowledge. People in high level government have very little, if any, valid information about this. It has been the subject of disinformation in order to deflect attention and create confusion so the truth doesn't come out. " Edgar D. Mitchell, The Way of the Explorer: An Apollo Astronaut's Journey Through the Material and Mystical World

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Thomas Jefferson Dubose (2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX (3) I retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General. (4) In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas. I served as Chief of Staff to Major General Roger Ramey, Commander, Eighth Air Force. I had the rank of Colonel. (5) In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command. He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press. I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field, and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen. (6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy. (7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press. (8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: T. J. Dubose Date: 9/16/91 Signature witnessed by: Linda R. Split Notary Public, State of Florida.

"There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself. " Daniel Inouye Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition (Iran-Contra hearings) (1987)

"There is a sophisticated disinformation campaign targeting the US populace which is extremely unethical and immoral. We are most definitely not alone."- 36-year-old David Grusch has served in the Air Force for 14 years and is a decorated Afghanistan combat officer who had earlier worked with the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) and the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA).

"What concerns me is that there is no 'Oversight' from our elected officials on anything associated with our government possessing or working on craft that we believe are not from this world"Retired Navy Cmdr. David Fravor

"I recall the oversight committees asking about long-rumored UAP satellite data back in 2017 when I first brought the committees unclassified military UAP videos and worked with Lue Elizondo to make introductions to Navy aviators. The fact this data has still not been shared with the oversight committees is simply outrageous. AARO and the Administration cannot claim to be acting in good faith on the UAP issue while blatantly ignoring these lawful requests." ~Chris Mellon- former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence

REMOTE VIEWING data (a technique developed by our CIA and Stanford Research Institute for military espionage purposes) PER FARSIGHT INSTITUTE suggests...Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven...perhaps it was someone else? The Great Pyramid and other ancient sites and structures were not solely built by our kind.
Many other topics begin to make sense.. It has been said that after President Carter was finally briefed on the et reality, he was deeply upset. For several weeks..

MEANINGFUL, full-blown congressional hearings with power to subpoena must be held. The constitutionally illegal, EXTRATERRESTRIAL and associated TIME TRAVEL (This is the reality "they" really DON'T want disclosed) and SECRET SPACE PROGRAMS cover-ups must be exposed. Just what are the results from the decades of back-engineering recovered non-human materials and craft? Who has been footing the bill for that? The legal/moral sources... How can we truly believe anything our elected officials say? The longer an "official" disclosure is delayed...the more disruptive it could be. And that would be just a start. Our government has been gifted a golden opportunity here to prove their worth. To restore at least some measure of trust. The general public is waiting to be given permission to believe...to know.

No more dog and pony shows.

Children talk about witnessing the 1994 UFO landing at the Ariel School in Ruwa, Zimbabwe

How do we navigate the account of Pres Carter's reaction?

If true, it might validate the data collected by Farsight Institute's various remote viewing projects involving the major religions.

The documentary, 3rd Eye Spies, is somewhat of an eye-opener for those not familiar with the technique.

At about the 35' min mark here, Bob Lazar briefly describes a fairly large stack of material dealing with the et reality and religion. He is not real comfortable talking about this. It dove-tails pretty closely with what Pres. Carter was told.

Knapp initial interview of Bob Lazar

So, your assertion is that aliens created Islam as a religion dedicated to killing all the "infidels" (i.e. non-Muslims) for the purpose of keeping us from destroying our selves by promoting destroying each other?

Makes perfect sense.