Faithful Ag said:

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I accept 100% of what IS scripture. I am wondering if you do as well but you refuse to answer the simple question.

It's impossible to engage in these "honest" scripture only / proof-text only discussions with you when you won't even tell us what you hold to actually be "God-breathed" scripture.

So again, What do YOU hold to be Scripture?

How do you have confidence that you don't have anything extra and that you are not missing anything that IS scripture?

If you refuse to answer this simple question you are nothing but a troll and any further discussion with you is fruitless and pointless.

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jkag89 said:

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Have you even considered Catholics don't ignore Scripture but simply understand it differently than you? This is why I suggested simply trying understand the Catholic perspective from the Catholic perspective. It might help in whatever you are trying to accomplish on this board.

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Faithful Ag said:

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Quote:

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Where is the "tradition" of NOT immersing people fully underwater when being baptized and simply sprinkling a little water on their heads? Where is the "tradition" of baptizing infants as opposed to waiting until they are of sufficient age to make that decision for themselves?

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You should read the Didache.

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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I accept 100% of what IS scripture. I am wondering if you do as well but you refuse to answer the simple question.

It's impossible to engage in these "honest" scripture only / proof-text only discussions with you when you won't even tell us what you hold to actually be "God-breathed" scripture.

So again, What do YOU hold to be Scripture?

How do you have confidence that you don't have anything extra and that you are not missing anything that IS scripture?

If you refuse to answer this simple question you are nothing but a troll and any further discussion with you is fruitless and pointless.

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Ok I was about to engage you until I read your last sentence.

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So you are choosing "Troll" instead of engaging?

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jrico2727 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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jkag89 said:

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Have you even considered Catholics don't ignore Scripture but simply understand it differently than you? This is why I suggested simply trying understand the Catholic perspective from the Catholic perspective. It might help in whatever you are trying to accomplish on this board.

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I believe that both are true. Catholics do interpret some things differently. They also have to ignore a plethora of scripture to hold true to their theology.

I LOVE when Christians respond with scripture. The scriptures SHOULD be the basis of our theology. The Catholic Church has gotten around that by correctly claiming that "tradition" has been a part of teaching God's word from the beginning.

Indeed, the Catholic Church did, with a little nudging and guidance by the Holy Spirit (my belief, not scriptural), compiled the scriptures into a book that we call the Bible. Today, the Catholic Bible has some books that tat Protestants don't accept.

It is my belief that the original church founded in Rome was true to God's word. At some point later, it is evident to me that the church became corrupted and began teaching doctrines that don't exist in the original scriptures. Catholics cite "tradition" but then I ask, where is the "tradition" of praying to Mary or "venerating" Mary or praying to dead saints? Where is the "tradition" of NOT immersing people fully underwater when being baptized and simply sprinkling a little water on their heads? Where is the "tradition" of baptizing infants as opposed to waiting until they are of sufficient age to make that decision for themselves?

Paul warned us:

1 Timothy 4:1-6
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.


Who is banning marriage and telling us not to eat meat during Lent? The Catholic Church. And when I point out these contradictions with God's word, as verse 6 above commands me to do, I am criticized.

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What type of made up fan fiction is this? Almost sound Mormon with your great aposty "theory". I guess you're too busy making this crap up instead of getting back with all those scriptures that show all the apostles getting keys, like Oprah was handing them out.

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jrico2727 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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jrico2727 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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jkag89 said:

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Have you even considered Catholics don't ignore Scripture but simply understand it differently than you? This is why I suggested simply trying understand the Catholic perspective from the Catholic perspective. It might help in whatever you are trying to accomplish on this board.

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I believe that both are true. Catholics do interpret some things differently. They also have to ignore a plethora of scripture to hold true to their theology.

I LOVE when Christians respond with scripture. The scriptures SHOULD be the basis of our theology. The Catholic Church has gotten around that by correctly claiming that "tradition" has been a part of teaching God's word from the beginning.

Indeed, the Catholic Church did, with a little nudging and guidance by the Holy Spirit (my belief, not scriptural), compiled the scriptures into a book that we call the Bible. Today, the Catholic Bible has some books that tat Protestants don't accept.

It is my belief that the original church founded in Rome was true to God's word. At some point later, it is evident to me that the church became corrupted and began teaching doctrines that don't exist in the original scriptures. Catholics cite "tradition" but then I ask, where is the "tradition" of praying to Mary or "venerating" Mary or praying to dead saints? Where is the "tradition" of NOT immersing people fully underwater when being baptized and simply sprinkling a little water on their heads? Where is the "tradition" of baptizing infants as opposed to waiting until they are of sufficient age to make that decision for themselves?

Paul warned us:

1 Timothy 4:1-6
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.


Who is banning marriage and telling us not to eat meat during Lent? The Catholic Church. And when I point out these contradictions with God's word, as verse 6 above commands me to do, I am criticized.

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What type of made up fan fiction is this? Almost sound Mormon with your great aposty "theory". I guess you're too busy making this crap up instead of getting back with all those scriptures that show all the apostles getting keys, like Oprah was handing them out.

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This is another prime example of me sharing the word of God with Catholics and Catholics hating it. You either don't believe the scriptures or you hate them. Your love, loyalty, and devotion are to serving the worldly Roman Church. I can show you why you're WRONG about Peter being the only one given the "keys to the kingdom" but you would crap all over whatever I share with you.

I didn't make up anything about the great apostasy. I gave you what GOD said.

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. You're entire historical narrative is demonstrably false, and laughable. At this point there is no reason to take you seriously. You need to back up your ridiculous claims or stop trolling.

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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I accept 100% of what IS scripture. I am wondering if you do as well but you refuse to answer the simple question.

It's impossible to engage in these "honest" scripture only / proof-text only discussions with you when you won't even tell us what you hold to actually be "God-breathed" scripture.

So again, What do YOU hold to be Scripture?

How do you have confidence that you don't have anything extra and that you are not missing anything that IS scripture?

If you refuse to answer this simple question you are nothing but a troll and any further discussion with you is fruitless and pointless.

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Ok I was about to engage you until I read your last sentence.

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So you are choosing "Troll" instead of engaging?

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You claim to be a follower of Jesus but you obviously don't believe in loving your neighbor.

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PabloSerna said:

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You should watch the whole rebuttal. However, I suspect you will not. That guy does an incredible job of going line for line, scripture for scripture showing exactly how Josh is wrong on so many levels.

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So I watched both, four hours of my life there. Some highlights:

1. Josh (anti-Catholic) lays out his plan for disproving the validity of "Catholicism" on the basis that we worship (2) Jesus and there are (2) sacrifices. He says that the RCC does this because this way, the false Jesus sacrifice is insufficient thus needing more sacramentals (i.e., baptism, purgatory) to control the people.

2. Josh also rehashes old misunderstandings such as the primacy of St. Peter as the first Pope (44:10), the unnecessary Magisterium as a kind of Pharisaical oral tradition (21:44), sola scriptura (20:21, 30:56), sola fide, and the RCC idolatry worship of bread and wine (1:11:18).

3. One of the new misunderstandings he spends a good time on is the Eucharist (1:05:00 mark). He has ZERO understanding of the Catholic dogma on transubstantiation which is unfortunate because if he were to read it most of his argument would be answered. Instead he focuses on "cannibalism" and "vampires" as if he cannot understand the basic definitions of species and appearances. I will admit that to the outside eye, this is ground zero for why many people leave the Catholic Church. However the flip side is just as compelling. A true understanding of this miracle (I mean that in the most supernatural way) is why I could never leave the Church. It makes all the sense in the world and thank you Jesus for establishing this memorial of your real presence in this world. Where else can one go to stand in the presence of God?

I took about 8 pages of notes, pausing, and writing, and pausing and more writing. I went right to his citations for the bible verses and what ever Papal Bull, Encyclical, or Catechism he cited out of context. What is sad is that he didn't bother to understand anything, but went for a sound bite, like the one about the Pope kissing the Koran and making the leap that we agree with Islam - when that is not the case. It was written that we agree that they "profess" the same God of Abraham. This was a first step for an ecumenical dialogue with our brother and sisters. We do profess the same God, the God of Abraham. Where it goes from there is not as easily agreed upon. Josh would have you believe that we hold the Koran at the same level as the Holy Bible. Not the case.

Anyhow M1, I don't know why you and Josh have this axe to grind with the Roman Catholic Church. It's not healthy from a spiritual sense. The Catholics on this board have a better knowledge about their faith than the average Catholic, so maybe you like the arguments?

You should really listen to the rebuttal, because the whole Sola Scriptura part is dissected. For me this was the line that upset me, (1:07:02) "Jesus kills himself in his own hands and watches his disciples cannibalize him. Jesus cloned himself. Massively incoherent and frankly weird." If that is your understanding, I can tell you will have trouble with the idea that God is eternal. Time and matter play a part in the basic understanding of transubstantiation. No man could have ever understood this revelation. This is the work of God and Holy Spirit. I noticed he stayed away from the Trinity - good for him.

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jkag89 said:

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Have you even considered Catholics don't ignore Scripture but simply understand it differently than you? This is why I suggested simply trying understand the Catholic perspective from the Catholic perspective. It might help in whatever you are trying to accomplish on this board.

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