Nobody goes to "Hell" forever, in the end, ALL are with God!

10,402 Views | 187 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by thegoodolag15
The Banned
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M1Buckeye said:

Again, the responses here are typical.

Write dissertations in "response" with ZERO scripture and accuse the other, who provided a PLETHORA of scripture, a heretic.

Years ago I questioned some of the doctrines that I had been taught. I opened the Bible and decided that I would go whereever the Bible takes me.

Most people, however, are cemented to a doctrine that they learned long ago and will not, no matter what the Bible tells them, budge from their doctrine.

So be it. I hope the good news of Jesus reaches many spiritually thirsty souls.


This is why no one bothers responding with scripture. You'll just tell us that we're interpreting it incorrectly, fail to explain why we're incorrect, and barrel on proudly with how we're all wrong and refuse to see it. I would suggest you are on an incredibly dangerous path, but I know you won't listen.
dermdoc
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Dies Irae said:

I always feel bad for Origen, the dude was there at the very beginning and was thinking deep thoughts bereft of the magisterium that had really yet to form completely. It wasn't his fault he was a heretic.


From my reading, he was not called a heretic for his universalism as Zobel pointed out.

And I certainly pray for the salvation of all and hope for it.

Did you have time to read the article I posted?

It explains all this pretty well. I just do not think it is a cut and dry heresy and fits within orthodoxy.

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Dies Irae
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dermdoc said:

Dies Irae said:

I always feel bad for Origen, the dude was there at the very beginning and was thinking deep thoughts bereft of the magisterium that had really yet to form completely. It wasn't his fault he was a heretic.


From my reading, he was not called a heretic for his universalism as Zobel pointed out.

And I certainly pray for the salvation of all and hope for it.

Did you have time to read the article I posted?

It explains all this pretty well. I just do not think it is a cut and dry heresy and fits within orthodoxy.


I did, it was good. I meant Origen in general, it is hard to blame him for some of his heretical ideas as he was so early in the life of the Church. I appreciate his later rehabilitation even if I understand why he cannot be canonized.
ramblin_ag02
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There's plenty of Scripture to throw around against the idea of universal salvation, ie anything about sheep and goats, talk about the second death, the very idea that the Fall made men mortal, random verses like John 3:16, any verse about the lost sheep (why chase lost sheep if they can't be lost?), and on and on. If you want a list and I get the free time, I can drown you in Scripture on the topic.

My objection to universal salvation is more of a moral issue wrapped up in the problem of suffering. Suffering is universal and terrible. We suffer from the moment of birth up to the moment of death. Some suffer more than others, but the suffering doesn't stop. Somewhere in the world at any point in time, someone is suffering the most excrucitating agony imaginable. So how can a good God allow suffering? I can only figure one way, because there is something more important at stake. So suffering has to happen in order to serve this higher and more important goal. As a Christian, it makes sense to look at that higher purpose as salvation. So in this instance suffering becomes a necessary tool to separate the good from the bad, the saved from the lost.

So why would that make me object to universal salvation? If everyone will experience eternal bliss and direct fellowship with God, then all of a sudden all that suffering no longer has any meaning. In that scenario, God creates a flawed universe, puts people in it to suffer for their entire lives, and then takes it all away and makes everyone blissfull for eternity. So what is the function of suffering in that instance? Is it just for grins? Is it so we appreciate Paradise more? Couldn't He just create us with that appreciation? The suffering is completely superfluous in that set up. And what kind of God makes people needlessly suffer?
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

There's plenty of Scripture to throw around against the idea of universal salvation, ie anything about sheep and goats, talk about the second death, the very idea that the Fall made men mortal, random verses like John 3:16, any verse about the lost sheep (why chase lost sheep if they can't be lost?), and on and on. If you want a list and I get the free time, I can drown you in Scripture on the topic.

My objection to universal salvation is more of a moral issue wrapped up in the problem of suffering. Suffering is universal and terrible. We suffer from the moment of birth up to the moment of death. Some suffer more than others, but the suffering doesn't stop. Somewhere in the world at any point in time, someone is suffering the most excrucitating agony imaginable. So how can a good God allow suffering? I can only figure one way, because there is something more important at stake. So suffering has to happen in order to serve this higher and more important goal. As a Christian, it makes sense to look at that higher purpose as salvation. So in this instance suffering becomes a necessary tool to separate the good from the bad, the saved from the lost.

So why would that make me object to universal salvation? If everyone will experience eternal bliss and direct fellowship with God, then all of a sudden all that suffering no longer has any meaning. In that scenario, God creates a flawed universe, puts people in it to suffer for their entire lives, and then takes it all away and makes everyone blissfull for eternity. So what is the function of suffering in that instance? Is it just for grins? Is it so we appreciate Paradise more? Couldn't He just create us with that appreciation? The suffering is completely superfluous in that set up. And what kind of God makes people needlessly suffer?


I think suffering refines us and makes us into the people God wants us to be.

And I believe God ultimately refines and purifies all of Creation. Otherwise God loses.

And I have tons of universal reconciliation Scripture also.

Things like God desires all men to be saved, every knee shall bow, just as one man's sin caused death, Jesus's death brings life to all men, angels saying they bring good news to all men, Jesus will draw all men to Him,
Christ died once for all, God is the savior of all men, especially those who believe, etc.

And I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Just showing support for what I believe.
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Win At Life
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M1Buckeye said:

The reader can note that many people are married to their doctrinal views and cannot move from it, no matter how much scripture they're given. It's pride. They cannot fathom the possibility that their understanding of God and his word is not complete and infallible. Their pride blinds them. Again, that's why Paul told us to refer to the scriptures.




Heed your own advice and listen to this. You are correct that all men are Resurrected and will have an eternal existence. And all have their name written in the book of life. You've got that part right. But you are not looking at the rest.

Some of those listed above will be be blotted out of the book of life, cursed eternally in the fire prepared for HaSatan and his angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Rev 20:11-15, Rev 21:8).
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

I think suffering refines us and makes us into the people God wants us to be.

And I believe God ultimately refines and purifies all of Creation. Otherwise God loses.
I'm just going to talk through this idea. So the perfect God creates imperfect men. To correct that imperfection He creates suffering, which is unquestionably the worst thing anyone can experience. God then makes His imperfect creation suffer in order to perfect them. Again, the suffering is an unnecessary step, right? If God's only goal was the perfection of everyone, then He could just make us perfect in the first place.
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

I think suffering refines us and makes us into the people God wants us to be.

And I believe God ultimately refines and purifies all of Creation. Otherwise God loses.
I'm just going to talk through this idea. So the perfect God creates imperfect men. To correct that imperfection He creates suffering, which is unquestionably the worst thing anyone can experience. God then makes His imperfect creation suffer in order to perfect them. Again, the suffering is an unnecessary step, right? If God's only goal was the perfection of everyone, then He could just make us perfect in the first place.


He did make Adam and Eve perfect and they blew it.

I think God allows what we consider suffering.

Job is an example of this.
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ramblin_ag02
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How can a perfect being "blow it"?
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

How can a perfect being "blow it"?
Great question They chose to sin.
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ramblin_ag02
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They sinned by chosing to disobey their Perfect God. So again, how does a perfect being disobey? I made the point in the other thread in much more detail, but God clearly didn't make us perfect. If we were perfect, then we'd either be God or God-directed automatons. The very idea of choice precludes perfection.
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ramblin_ag02
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I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
I agree.

But as brought up in Matthew 25:46, the same word for eternal is used for the sheep and the goats. Now you can say kolasin means pruning and not retributive punishment, but that word eternal is there for both conditions.
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dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
I agree.

But as brought up in Matthew 25:46, the same word for eternal is used for the sheep and the goats. Now you can say kolasin means pruning and not retributive punishment, but that word eternal is there for both conditions.


I'd say that non-existence is an eternal punishment since the consequences last forever
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
I agree.

But as brought up in Matthew 25:46, the same word for eternal is used for the sheep and the goats. Now you can say kolasin means pruning and not retributive punishment, but that word eternal is there for both conditions.


I'd say that non-existence is an eternal punishment since the consequences last forever
So you favor annihilationism?
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ramblin_ag02
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dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
I agree.

But as brought up in Matthew 25:46, the same word for eternal is used for the sheep and the goats. Now you can say kolasin means pruning and not retributive punishment, but that word eternal is there for both conditions.


I'd say that non-existence is an eternal punishment since the consequences last forever
So you favor annihilationism?


I don't know that I would use the word "favor", but I think that is the outcome for those that do not gain eternal life
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dermdoc
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ramblin_ag02 said:

dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

dermdoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

I will also say that I agree with some of the main argument. I agree that no one will suffer torture for eternity in hell. That is the ultimate manifestation of pointless suffering, and it is impossible to square that with a good and loving God.
I agree.

But as brought up in Matthew 25:46, the same word for eternal is used for the sheep and the goats. Now you can say kolasin means pruning and not retributive punishment, but that word eternal is there for both conditions.


I'd say that non-existence is an eternal punishment since the consequences last forever
So you favor annihilationism?


I don't know that I would use the word "favor", but I think that is the outcome for those that do not gain eternal life
I understand. Bad word choice.
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one MEEN Ag
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Buckeye,

So who taught you the scriptural context you bring to this forum? The translators of your favorite translation? The editors of the footnotes on a study bible? A podcast or preacher you like?

And who taught those people? How did they discern false teachings? What even is a false teaching to you? And who has authority to weigh in on the teachings of the bible and declare something false or not?

Before you get all defensive, the answer doesn't have to be 'just me' or 'only the pope'.

Lets just take a step back before firing off bible versus out of context. If were just gonna have a quote off, I'll start citing The Message and we'll all suffer because of it.

NowhereMan
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Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.

dermdoc
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TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.




A dissenting view from a Catholic source. And quotes from Pope Francis.
https://wherepeteris.com/universalism-and-hell/
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AgLiving06
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TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.
PabloSerna
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Thx.

Good article, there are more than one type of "universalism" so it is not as simple.
dermdoc
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AgLiving06 said:

TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.


Disagree. Actually of the three concepts of hell, ECT hell, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing.
Curious if you read the articles I linked.
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AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.


Disagree. Actually of the three concepts of hell, ECT hell, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing.
Curious if you read the articles I linked.

I've notice you consistently accuse people of supporting ECT Hell. I never said I do. What I think is fair is that only those with faith can be saved and reconciled to God. Those without faith are not. The whole concept of universal reconciliation is foreign to the Scriptures.

And yes. I did read the article and to be honest with you. It's not good. Beyond the standard roman catholic language that "should" trouble you. It also makes a real problematic statement about sin in a way that essentially tries to make sin acceptable.

dermdoc
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AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.


Disagree. Actually of the three concepts of hell, ECT hell, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing.
Curious if you read the articles I linked.

I've notice you consistently accuse people of supporting ECT Hell. I never said I do. What I think is fair is that only those with faith can be saved and reconciled to God. Those without faith are not. The whole concept of universal reconciliation is foreign to the Scriptures.

And yes. I did read the article and to be honest with you. It's not good. Beyond the standard roman catholic language that "should" trouble you. It also makes a real problematic statement about sin in a way that essentially tries to make sin acceptable.


Are you a Calvinist?

Because what you posted is not Calvinism.
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AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.


Disagree. Actually of the three concepts of hell, ECT hell, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing.
Curious if you read the articles I linked.

I've notice you consistently accuse people of supporting ECT Hell. I never said I do. What I think is fair is that only those with faith can be saved and reconciled to God. Those without faith are not. The whole concept of universal reconciliation is foreign to the Scriptures.

And yes. I did read the article and to be honest with you. It's not good. Beyond the standard roman catholic language that "should" trouble you. It also makes a real problematic statement about sin in a way that essentially tries to make sin acceptable.


Are you a Calvinist?

Because what you posted is not Calvinism.

No. I'm Lutheran...
dermdoc
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AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

TrailerTrash said:

Universalism is old heresy, you have not discovered anything new.

The church has condemned this belief. You are taking texts out of context and you are not studying all the text about eternal judgement.



This is right.

Universalism really doesn't hold up to Scripture, but it does a great job of appealing to our emotional side and it appeases any guilt we might have for our own sinfulness.


Disagree. Actually of the three concepts of hell, ECT hell, annihilationism, or universal reconciliation, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing.
Curious if you read the articles I linked.

I've notice you consistently accuse people of supporting ECT Hell. I never said I do. What I think is fair is that only those with faith can be saved and reconciled to God. Those without faith are not. The whole concept of universal reconciliation is foreign to the Scriptures.

And yes. I did read the article and to be honest with you. It's not good. Beyond the standard roman catholic language that "should" trouble you. It also makes a real problematic statement about sin in a way that essentially tries to make sin acceptable.


Are you a Calvinist?

Because what you posted is not Calvinism.

No. I'm Lutheran...

So do you believe in double pre destination and limited atonement?

And not trying to be a *****, but those two things are pretty crucial.
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AgLiving06
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You clearly do not understand what Lutheranism teaches.

It does not teach double predestination or limited atonement.

dermdoc
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AgLiving06 said:

You clearly do not understand what Lutheranism teaches.

It does not teach double predestination or limited atonement.


Fair enough. I was just asking.
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dermdoc
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https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/double_luther.html

And I like Luther. But how does single predestination differ from double predestination?

Outcome is the same. Just different mechanics.
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Dies Irae
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dermdoc said:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/double_luther.html

And I like Luther. But how does single predestination differ from double predestination?

Outcome is the same. Just different mechanics.


Nobody likes Luther, Lutherans don't like Luther
Bighunter43
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This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/

dermdoc
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Bighunter43 said:

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/


So what does destruction mean? Does not sound like eternal punishment to me.
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Aggrad08
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Quote:

If everyone will experience eternal bliss and direct fellowship with God, then all of a sudden all that suffering no longer has any meaning.

Why would damning your neighbor bring meaning to your suffering? Do you think you would look down from heaven and think, "thank god there are people suffering pointlessly in hell so my brief suffering while on earth had meaning? Or alternatively look down and think, I'm glad there are people who suffered pointlessly only to be blipped out of existence just so I could feel better about my suffering?

Quote:


In that scenario, God creates a flawed universe, puts people in it to suffer for their entire lives, and then takes it all away and makes everyone blissfull for eternity.
That certainly seems better than god creates a flawed universe and puts (i dunno let's call it 15%, the way is narrow after all, or hell let's call it 50% I don't care) that number in heaven and the rest in hell. Why does that make more sense?

And there are about a million ways to give purpose to suffering and still have universal salvation. You could have people go through a purgatory of sorts based on their behavior on earth as one of eleventy examples. The ways to make sense of this are myriad as long as you are willing to slide away from Christian dogma. And I don't see why sliding away from dogma about eternal suffering is much different than toward something else.


Quote:

So what is the function of suffering in that instance? Is it just for grins?

Does the level of suffering people experience actually correlate with their behavior? You've imagined a scenario with a very flawed universe where some people suffer greatly, some suffer far less, and all are judged based on belief rather than their response to suffering. In what way is suffering a meaningful crucible?


Quote:

Is it so we appreciate Paradise more? Couldn't He just create us with that appreciation? The suffering is completely superfluous in that set up. And what kind of God makes people needlessly suffer?
Well that's just the point, could he just separate us into worthy and unworthy of eternal suffering or non-existence right of the bat. Suffering is in no way a necessary crucible for an omniscient god.

And in your own scenario, anyone who isn't saved does needlessly suffer. They were better off not created.

There are lots of ways a god could make some sense or purpose of suffering. The hardest ones to make sense of are where there is a place of maximal good and maximal bad. That's a problem with Christianity and Islam. The took their carrots and sticks to the extreme.

But to your broad point, I don't see any way in which god is not the author of needless suffering. The earth has been the host to a hard cruel existence for 4 billion years. Was that necessary? Is animal suffering not suffering? Is it not cruel? What about the protohumans who are our ancestors? There is no plausible scenario in any religion where god is not the author of suffering that could logically be very easily avoided if god is omniscient and omnipotent.

There is a great weakness of Christianity and it's evident in your thinking here. You previously had noted christianity is unusual to an extent in asking it's adherents to suffer in this life and take up their cross. But that suffering is fundamentally selfish in that there is this notion of a perfect reward for deeds done. Christianity is all about the destination.

For some religions, like Judaism ironically enough, it's about the journey. And since we've been quoting Sanderson on this board lately, "Journey before destination" rings rather true for many of us. Your christian upbringing has made you hyperfocused on the destination over the journey.

I would say that universal salvation is one of the very few ways to justify suffering on god's part. To give us lessons by suffering that we take with us to the bliss beyond. To give us a journey before our destination.

Granted this doesn't answer for seemingly pointless suffering that we see to exist, but I find it a far better answer than you have to suffer to prove to god that I'm better than you.
dermdoc
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Bighunter43 said:

This topic is way over my head, yet the answer seems all too simplistic.

Consider these two verses:
1.). John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, for God's wrath REMAINS on them!"

2.). 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "Those that do not know God, and those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, they will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and SHUT OUT from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might!

Both of those sure sound eternal to me!!

I think this article sums up how I interpret this:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/universalism-will-everyone-finally-be-saved/


And may I ask "Who conducts the eternal (that is a long time) torment you describe?

Is it God who revealed himself as Jesus?

Is it Satan who God defeats at the end?

Have you ever really thought about eternal torment administered by a loving God?
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